Great write up!

#3 is a good an VERY valid reason!

I agree with everything you've said. Yeah, I know, I have no position in this, because I don't own an MM or have any plans to get MMR. But it's good to see people stepping back to think about this before jumping into an $8000 purchase. Don't get me wrong, for some MMR is a God-send. But for me, it just doesn't make sense right now. I may be interested in picking up an MM or MMR in the future, but I want to wait a little while to see how things go after the remake hype dies down and we see what prices wind up like on MM and MMR.

I agree, have not cancelled but leaning towards that. I'd rather if they had used p-roc system and maybe allow open source or semi open system which would allow some sort of modification and sharing.

But for me, price is a factor as well when nice games that I like quite a lot are for $5k +/- some.

Couldn't agree more. Well done to the OP! There's something to be said for having principles.

Those license holders spend way too much time trying to figure out how to send out C and D's

Go talk to WMS about #3 and not me - you have no idea if we did not pursue getting wms to agree to allow things nothing would be happening (legally). You clearly do not understand that wms owns the copyright and ip rights for ALL the wms code. Without doing anything, nothing would happen and all would be stopped (as they did with eproms for a long while) ... we've managed to build confidence with wms to open the door to code variations and so you are not even aware of what is being done to help make any of this possible or legitimate. It's not principals here, it's just a lack of understanding of how things work.

Who was the cockblocker that shut down ballsofsteel.net?

Very well said. I know two guys locally who have cancelled; one based on #2 and the other who was in early but in the end got down graded to a standard.

Williams and others should use the community like with gaming. It will make it better for all.

Not try to prevend their own games to be better. Its old school business. Get rid of it.

I cancelled because of #2 but I will be in 100% for CCr or MBr if the new platform proves to be solid and reasonably friendly to work on.

Also, the electronics package allows for better sound, better video, other features, as well as the old system was not even really viable to produce. I can understand if you are stuck on the original system, but again, without doing something new everything would be as it is, we prefer to advance things.

Also, we are working to get updates to code, but it will be done the way it has to be with wms. We are working with a few people now to make modifications as well as working with BOP and eventually CCC to get them to be legitimate, so again #2 is totally off base, as we are spending plenty of time to work on code enhacements with several people to get things going ... waiting for wms is what's up right now to get some legal stuff handled that they need ... so you can again give wms a call and talk to them about it.

rick

Well thought at post. I feel you are being prudent. Even if you decide later you want one you will most likely be able to get it HUO for 80-85 percent of the NIB price. So don't sweat your decision. Someone will want the "latest and greatest" after playing it for a few months and then have to sell it to fund that purchase (see it happen all the time....look at people selling AC/DC premiums at heavy losses just to buy the "latest and greatest" LUCI AC/DC premium....so I am 500% sure there will be some MMR's available if you change your mind so sleep well !!!).

Good job......"patience is a virtue" in this hobby and saves you tons of money !!!! At $8K it is not a bargain that has to be JUMPED ON in my opinion.....plus, they will be remaking so many of these. Eventually, my basement will be filled with HUO MMR, HUO MB, HUO CC etc. etc.....assuming they are being made properly and everyone isn't complaining about the quality which is a possibility so you can't lose by waiting.

oh, how I miss ballsofsteel.net
if anyone has a .zip of that archive of goodness feel free to PM me!

Not knowing all the facts of any of these "transgressions", there are right ways and wrong ways to go about handling things in this small world that is the pinball community.

Majoring in the minors is usually not a good thing. License whatever it is, make $5 per logo times 50 pinball covers and make the community happy. Meanwhile, Lincensee can simply pass that cost along.

Again, obviously I don't know all the details, just what I hear and what makes sense to me. Hopefully these things can get worked out.

that's what's being worked out with wms at PPS's initiative ... code updates are not about money it's about making updates to code to make them more playable. Unforunately for those who do not want to understand the code and the copyrights are still wms and they still care about enforcing it ... so we have gone above and beyond to get some movement in them to get this available - so Jazman has many mis-characterizations in his post especially about code (see the other thread about asking for code ideas to modify) ...

I like the sound of that.

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

You also wouldn't make a TON OF MONEY.....LOL

Please don't. Your efforts are appreciated.

Wonder how WMS would feel about that...

Oh yeah, I know how they'd feel lol

man... i would absolutely love to work on enhancing that code. have built (and "ported") embedded system games since the beginning
ps. i'm available for next client soon.

This is the internet we are all negative. Don't listen to words listen to our orders. Btw could you get the code updated to Metallica already. Your killing us Rick. I kid I kid

there's no ton of money on code updates ... the cost of programming, testing, and deploying, as well as the ease at which everyone copies code makes it hardly a money maker ... lol

i was late to that party..what was it?

Better yet.....how would current owners of these remake games feel (they would pop the champagne).....LOL. I don't own any of the really high priced older games but I am sure that there are a lot of collectors that would rejoice if they didn't have to worry about what these remakes have done and will continue to do to the value of their collection. I haven't seen many MM's sell for $15K anymore and prices drop overall on all the high priced older pins.

For that reason alone I am overjoyed the remakes are coming. Just the fear has brought down most pinball prices and I always felt the $5K and above older games were way overpriced. When I was buying like crazy last year I stayed away from those titles (just felt eventually they would come tumbling to earth and BINGO they are). So for that I thank Planetary Pinball but I will still wait for the HUO's....

Making money is not a sin. If a company doesn't make money it doesn't survive and you don't get products that many in the hobby want. This whole concept of doing it for the love of the hobby and money being evil is bs. Very few people here could actually run a company successfully. Making a profit is essential.

Also, I have experience with what Rick is saying about code. WMS will not allow people to easily modify code. There are very good legal reasons for this and I can't say I blame WMS. Larry DeMar shared some of the reasons at one of our seminars. We also took some flack about not allowing code modification but we wouldn't have been able to release a product if we allowed it. We would have never gotten WMS approval.

It is what it is. Rick is correct, he doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter. If you don't like the product that's one thing. Don't blame rick or PP for WMS' rules. The only other choice is Rick doesn't make these machines. The vast majority of users would like to have one, including me.

I'm just waiting for people to start having fire sales when the mmr money is due. That is gonna be a great day to have extra cash! Ed

Relax, we like your effort. Some don't understand what you are up against with WMS. When the decisions are explained, most of the collectors can see both conclusions have merit to them.

Something I can actually agree on with you

Such as? What are the potential "damages" and liability?

This is why I won't ever buy from you, frankly. You did this same petulant song and dance over BSD decals on eBay, if I recall correctly - "if you guys keep buying these off eBay I am going to put the BSD project on the bottom of the stack and never get to it. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo."

Be above that, man.

Gambit.....you are right on as I sensed the same "tone" and just had to laugh. Thanks for a good laugh....great post.

Exactly. Larry asked all the old WMS guys in the audience to raise their hands if they fried coils writing a game. Everyone raised their hands. There are other less interesting reasons but liability is a good one.

True, not much money to be made on code updates. But I hope you're still making money selling parts lol. And what better way to sell parts than to give machine owners a good reason to fix up their pins to go with that new and improved code.

So a couple questions:

1) if its WMS that is cracking the whip, why do you get involved at all? How about let them be the bad guy? Your name is associated with the removal of CCC files, removal of something like anypic or WMS non ghosting patcher. Why can't you let them handle it? You could be an enabler and let them be the bad guys. The change in perception would go a long ways.

2) why would someone require something like anypic to be removed? I don't know of any laws that it breaks nor do I understand the motivation behind shutting something like that down. For those that don't know, anypic was a simple patcher that allowed a wpc-s rom to run on any system that has any security chip. The security chips are no longer made so something like this has a valid use and seems to cost no one any loss yet Rick enforced it getting shut down and now you can hardly find it. Same with non ghosting rom patcher.

Don't get me wrong. I've said things like you stifle innovation with this type of stuff before. And that was overly hostile. But there could be more to it, and if there is perhaps you could let that be known. It is definitely stifling innovation to put a stop to someone enhancing code on a 20 year old game that the original code owner is no longer selling, upgrading, or profiting on. Still, your two stores are fantastic and I use them all the time. So obviously you do provide a very useful service.

parts have been selling well without any code updates ... so I wish that was the case but it's really not.

From your statement I don't think you undestand copyright issues - CCC is fine if they didn't use the Animations or the sound - I've been consistent from day one. I do undertand P-Roc and those 3rd party systems - my background was software development and hardware architectures, so please don't tell me what I don't understand - because I do understand alot of this is why I am trying to navigate to get some of this to happen.

rick

Please just stop with this attitude. Its not needed. How would wms ever find out about ccc btw? Be the bigger person.There are a boatload of people n this hobby who help a TON for free like epthgeek who did ccc and markmon who does tons of tech help. Neither threaten to walk when their efforts are stifled

Fair enough.
Now back on topic...

Well thought out post. +1

In my opinion, we were much better off before emails and forums. Jaz - pick up the phone and call Rick. You both have copyright and programming backgrounds. You can continue the back and forth bickering or have a solid conversation. You both could live a lot longer without the blood pressure spikes.

I'm still waiting on my Funhouse translite

I must be the most selfish person in the world. I own and iphone, and don't care who/where it was made, I have a MMr on order - from Wayne in Aust - and don't care about their past or who's making it, I have a car that was made overseas - and GM is closing down it's factories in Australia.

So long as the product is good, I'm happy. I appreciate that there are regulators to do their job to make sure workers are paid correctly, work safely etc, but I don't think it's my responsibility to boycott products if others have a moral objection so someone involved in a product.

I appreciate the openness of the OP in his/her reasons (no sexism here), and good luck to you. Reason number 3 is the only one that's a bit grating, as it may lead others down a path they don't need to travel.

Good luck Rick and looking forward to the machine.

You wouldn't even wait to play one first?

I'm sorry but this statement feels like the biggest, dumbest cop out I've ever heard and pisses me off every time I hear it used. Let's take CCC as an example. The code is all written that handles the coils. Yet the only thing in dispute is the audio clips. So you're saying what? The audio clips cause the coils to fry? Yet no one has any problem with the actual code that runs the coils. Its a totally lame cop out and anyone trying to use it is lying.

Next, WMS games are not under warranty. No one would be expecting WMS to repair or replace locked on coils caused by software or other. In addition, coils lock up in WMS games with current software. Otherwise, no one would make replacements. They can lock up for a number of reasons like a wire comes off and shorts (a wire soldered on originally by WMS personnel) or a transistor frying, or a switch malfunction that software doesn't handle well, etc.

Properly handling coils would be the responsibility of the person writing the new code. It's just ridiculous for anyone to try to use this excuse in the case of updating old WMS code.

If only Liberals would understand this

_{Post edited by gweempose : Ban warning given for political comment.}

I cancelled & bought a NIB Tron. I think if I got the MM,I'd just look at it like I do now days with TZ,& TAF. I mean come on,how many times can you play a game that you've been playing for 20 years & still keep it real.

Stay friendly everyone, we are all glad to have Rick on this site to talk to us all and give us updates.

The kids over at Nike say thanks

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