(Topic ID: 78802)

I've cancelled my MMr order...


By Jazman

6 years ago



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56
#1 6 years ago

I've had a couple people ask me why I cancelled my order. If you want to know why keep reading. If you don't want to know, don't care or a closed minded fanboy, then stop reading now.

First, let me say that this doesn't have anything to do with not having the money available. I am very blessed to have a good
paying job that I work very hard at which allows me to have the disposable income to dabble in this hobby.

There are 3 main reasons that I cancelled my order.
1. Up until now, the most I've ever spent on a pin is $3300. I've got a HUO LotR in that range and a lightly
routed PotC at that price (yes, it was a while ago). So, while $8000 for a NIB MM is a great price considering what routed machines were going for, it is still a significantly higher price than I've ever paid for a machine before. Even though I pre-ordered on the spot at the announcement, I've come to my senses in the weeks since. There are other titles out there available today for a lower price that I would much rather own.

2. I have pretty strong reservations about the electronics package of this game. The manufacturer has a very
poor history making pinball machines. I have no doubts that the game will work fine out of the box and for the
short term. But, after scouring the photos and video that Rick has made available, I am concerned about the
long term reliability and ease of serviceability. I also suspect that troubleshooting is going to be quite an
endeavor from what I can see. A pinball machine is a pretty harsh environment due to the
amount of vibration the playfield sees (mainly from the solenoids). It takes a lot of knowledge to design for
that environment. Remember, even B/W had a steep learning curve for these conditions (ie: think trough
transmitter and receiver boards for example). From what I can tell from the pictures (very limited), they are trying to
use off-the-shelf stuff where they can which isn't likely to be designed to withstand vibration. I think it's
going to take quite a bit of time (or high usage on route) to flush out the reliability of the design concept
and implementation of mounting all that to the bottom of the playfield.

That said, I hope I am completely wrong and it's more solid than the original. There are other likely titles
to be re-produced in the future that are much more appealing to me than MM. Since this approach will also be
used for those titles, I would love to see it succeed. But, I'm not willing to be the guinea pig/beta tester
for the platform for $8K of my money

3. The final reason is likely to be controversial. I have a very hard time giving money to Rick and PPS right
now given how they've chosen to address the guys doing custom/improved rulesets of B/W games. These guys are doing what they are with no profit motive and purely for the love of the hobby.

I do understand the requirements of copyright holders to defend their rights or lose them. And it is true that,
in an effort to improve the marginal or unfinished code of existing games instead of totally reinvent them, they
were apparently using video clips from the original code. So, PPS could have chosen to make their efforts legal
by giving them a license to use it as long as they did not sell anything or make a profit. By issuing a license, they are takingsteps to protect their copyright while still allowing the projects to exist and continue. Instead, they have
chosen to say "you need to take that out". Is that within their rights? Yup, it sure is. Just like not buying their product is mine.

This opinion is purely mine and not that of the developers. I am specifically referring to the work done to create
Cactus Canyon Continued and Demolition Time. In these cases, the developers were either required to stop
distributing key pieces (needed to make their stuff work) or completely change what they had created. The work
they have done has only improved and continue to advance this hobby. It is only in Rick's best interest to
support these kinds of efforts.

I am really hoping that Rick and PPS reconsider their position.

Jaz

14
#2 6 years ago

Great write up!

#3 is a good an VERY valid reason!

#3 6 years ago

I agree with everything you've said. Yeah, I know, I have no position in this, because I don't own an MM or have any plans to get MMR. But it's good to see people stepping back to think about this before jumping into an $8000 purchase. Don't get me wrong, for some MMR is a God-send. But for me, it just doesn't make sense right now. I may be interested in picking up an MM or MMR in the future, but I want to wait a little while to see how things go after the remake hype dies down and we see what prices wind up like on MM and MMR.

#4 6 years ago

I agree, have not cancelled but leaning towards that. I'd rather if they had used p-roc system and maybe allow open source or semi open system which would allow some sort of modification and sharing.

But for me, price is a factor as well when nice games that I like quite a lot are for $5k +/- some.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Great write up!
#3 is a good an VERY valid reason!

Couldn't agree more. Well done to the OP! There's something to be said for having principles.

#6 6 years ago

Those license holders spend way too much time trying to figure out how to send out C and D's

23
#7 6 years ago

Go talk to WMS about #3 and not me - you have no idea if we did not pursue getting wms to agree to allow things nothing would be happening (legally). You clearly do not understand that wms owns the copyright and ip rights for ALL the wms code. Without doing anything, nothing would happen and all would be stopped (as they did with eproms for a long while) ... we've managed to build confidence with wms to open the door to code variations and so you are not even aware of what is being done to help make any of this possible or legitimate. It's not principals here, it's just a lack of understanding of how things work.

#8 6 years ago

Who was the cockblocker that shut down ballsofsteel.net?

#9 6 years ago

Very well said. I know two guys locally who have cancelled; one based on #2 and the other who was in early but in the end got down graded to a standard.

#10 6 years ago

Williams and others should use the community like with gaming. It will make it better for all.

Not try to prevend their own games to be better. Its old school business. Get rid of it.

#11 6 years ago

I cancelled because of #2 but I will be in 100% for CCr or MBr if the new platform proves to be solid and reasonably friendly to work on.

13
#12 6 years ago

Also, the electronics package allows for better sound, better video, other features, as well as the old system was not even really viable to produce. I can understand if you are stuck on the original system, but again, without doing something new everything would be as it is, we prefer to advance things.

Also, we are working to get updates to code, but it will be done the way it has to be with wms. We are working with a few people now to make modifications as well as working with BOP and eventually CCC to get them to be legitimate, so again #2 is totally off base, as we are spending plenty of time to work on code enhacements with several people to get things going ... waiting for wms is what's up right now to get some legal stuff handled that they need ... so you can again give wms a call and talk to them about it.

rick

#13 6 years ago

Well thought at post. I feel you are being prudent. Even if you decide later you want one you will most likely be able to get it HUO for 80-85 percent of the NIB price. So don't sweat your decision. Someone will want the "latest and greatest" after playing it for a few months and then have to sell it to fund that purchase (see it happen all the time....look at people selling AC/DC premiums at heavy losses just to buy the "latest and greatest" LUCI AC/DC premium....so I am 500% sure there will be some MMR's available if you change your mind so sleep well !!!).

Good job......"patience is a virtue" in this hobby and saves you tons of money !!!! At $8K it is not a bargain that has to be JUMPED ON in my opinion.....plus, they will be remaking so many of these. Eventually, my basement will be filled with HUO MMR, HUO MB, HUO CC etc. etc.....assuming they are being made properly and everyone isn't complaining about the quality which is a possibility so you can't lose by waiting.

#14 6 years ago

oh, how I miss ballsofsteel.net
if anyone has a .zip of that archive of goodness feel free to PM me!

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from Jazman:

I do understand the requirements of copyright holders to defend their rights or lose them. And it is true that,
in an effort to improve the marginal or unfinished code of existing games instead of totally reinvent them, they
were apparently using video clips from the original code. So, PPS could have chosen to make their efforts legal
by giving them a license to use it as long as they did not sell anything or make a profit. By issuing a license, they are takingsteps to protect their copyright while still allowing the projects to exist and continue. Instead, they have
chosen to say "you need to take that out". Is that within their rights? Yup, it sure is. Just like not buying their product is mine.

Not knowing all the facts of any of these "transgressions", there are right ways and wrong ways to go about handling things in this small world that is the pinball community.

Majoring in the minors is usually not a good thing. License whatever it is, make $5 per logo times 50 pinball covers and make the community happy. Meanwhile, Lincensee can simply pass that cost along.

Again, obviously I don't know all the details, just what I hear and what makes sense to me. Hopefully these things can get worked out.

#16 6 years ago

that's what's being worked out with wms at PPS's initiative ... code updates are not about money it's about making updates to code to make them more playable. Unforunately for those who do not want to understand the code and the copyrights are still wms and they still care about enforcing it ... so we have gone above and beyond to get some movement in them to get this available - so Jazman has many mis-characterizations in his post especially about code (see the other thread about asking for code ideas to modify) ...

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

We are working with a few people now to make modifications as well as working with BOP and eventually CCC to get them to be legitimate

I like the sound of that.

-24
#18 6 years ago

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

#19 6 years ago

You also wouldn't make a TON OF MONEY.....LOL

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

Please don't. Your efforts are appreciated.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

Wonder how WMS would feel about that...

Quoted from houseofpin:

You also wouldn't make a TON OF MONEY.....LOL

Oh yeah, I know how they'd feel lol

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Also, the electronics package allows for better sound, better video, other features, as well as the old system was not even really viable to produce. I can understand if you are stuck on the original system, but again, without doing something new everything would be as it is, we prefer to advance things.
Also, we are working to get updates to code, but it will be done the way it has to be with wms. We are working with a few people now to make modifications as well as working with BOP and eventually CCC to get them to be legitimate, so again #2 is totally off base, as we are spending plenty of time to work on code enhacements with several people to get things going ... waiting for wms is what's up right now to get some legal stuff handled that they need ... so you can again give wms a call and talk to them about it.
rick

man... i would absolutely love to work on enhancing that code. have built (and "ported") embedded system games since the beginning
ps. i'm available for next client soon.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

This is the internet we are all negative. Don't listen to words listen to our orders. Btw could you get the code updated to Metallica already. Your killing us Rick. I kid I kid

#24 6 years ago

there's no ton of money on code updates ... the cost of programming, testing, and deploying, as well as the ease at which everyone copies code makes it hardly a money maker ... lol

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from dgoett:

oh, how I miss ballsofsteel.net
if anyone has a .zip of that archive of goodness feel free to PM me!

i was late to that party..what was it?

#26 6 years ago

Better yet.....how would current owners of these remake games feel (they would pop the champagne).....LOL. I don't own any of the really high priced older games but I am sure that there are a lot of collectors that would rejoice if they didn't have to worry about what these remakes have done and will continue to do to the value of their collection. I haven't seen many MM's sell for $15K anymore and prices drop overall on all the high priced older pins.

For that reason alone I am overjoyed the remakes are coming. Just the fear has brought down most pinball prices and I always felt the $5K and above older games were way overpriced. When I was buying like crazy last year I stayed away from those titles (just felt eventually they would come tumbling to earth and BINGO they are). So for that I thank Planetary Pinball but I will still wait for the HUO's....

15
#27 6 years ago

Making money is not a sin. If a company doesn't make money it doesn't survive and you don't get products that many in the hobby want. This whole concept of doing it for the love of the hobby and money being evil is bs. Very few people here could actually run a company successfully. Making a profit is essential.

Also, I have experience with what Rick is saying about code. WMS will not allow people to easily modify code. There are very good legal reasons for this and I can't say I blame WMS. Larry DeMar shared some of the reasons at one of our seminars. We also took some flack about not allowing code modification but we wouldn't have been able to release a product if we allowed it. We would have never gotten WMS approval.

It is what it is. Rick is correct, he doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter. If you don't like the product that's one thing. Don't blame rick or PP for WMS' rules. The only other choice is Rick doesn't make these machines. The vast majority of users would like to have one, including me.

#28 6 years ago

I'm just waiting for people to start having fire sales when the mmr money is due. That is gonna be a great day to have extra cash! Ed

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

Relax, we like your effort. Some don't understand what you are up against with WMS. When the decisions are explained, most of the collectors can see both conclusions have merit to them.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Making money is not a sin. If a company doesn't make money it doesn't survive and you don't get products that many in the hobby want. This whole concept of doing it for the love of the hobby and money being evil is bs. Very few people here could actually run a company successfully. Making a profit is essential.

Something I can actually agree on with you

Quoted from chessiv:

There are very good legal reasons for this and I can't say I blame WMS.

Such as? What are the potential "damages" and liability?

27
#31 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

This is why I won't ever buy from you, frankly. You did this same petulant song and dance over BSD decals on eBay, if I recall correctly - "if you guys keep buying these off eBay I am going to put the BSD project on the bottom of the stack and never get to it. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo."

Be above that, man.

#32 6 years ago

Gambit.....you are right on as I sensed the same "tone" and just had to laugh. Thanks for a good laugh....great post.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Something I can actually agree on with you

Such as? What are the potential "damages" and liability?

Exactly. Larry asked all the old WMS guys in the audience to raise their hands if they fried coils writing a game. Everyone raised their hands. There are other less interesting reasons but liability is a good one.

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

there's no ton of money on code updates ... the cost of programming, testing, and deploying, as well as the ease at which everyone copies code makes it hardly a money maker ... lol

True, not much money to be made on code updates. But I hope you're still making money selling parts lol. And what better way to sell parts than to give machine owners a good reason to fix up their pins to go with that new and improved code.

#35 6 years ago

So a couple questions:

1) if its WMS that is cracking the whip, why do you get involved at all? How about let them be the bad guy? Your name is associated with the removal of CCC files, removal of something like anypic or WMS non ghosting patcher. Why can't you let them handle it? You could be an enabler and let them be the bad guys. The change in perception would go a long ways.

2) why would someone require something like anypic to be removed? I don't know of any laws that it breaks nor do I understand the motivation behind shutting something like that down. For those that don't know, anypic was a simple patcher that allowed a wpc-s rom to run on any system that has any security chip. The security chips are no longer made so something like this has a valid use and seems to cost no one any loss yet Rick enforced it getting shut down and now you can hardly find it. Same with non ghosting rom patcher.

Don't get me wrong. I've said things like you stifle innovation with this type of stuff before. And that was overly hostile. But there could be more to it, and if there is perhaps you could let that be known. It is definitely stifling innovation to put a stop to someone enhancing code on a 20 year old game that the original code owner is no longer selling, upgrading, or profiting on. Still, your two stores are fantastic and I use them all the time. So obviously you do provide a very useful service.

#36 6 years ago

parts have been selling well without any code updates ... so I wish that was the case but it's really not.

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Go talk to WMS about #3 and not me - you have no idea if we did not pursue getting wms to agree to allow things nothing would be happening (legally). You clearly do not understand that wms owns the copyright and ip rights for ALL the wms code. Without doing anything, nothing would happen and all would be stopped (as they did with eproms for a long while) ... we've managed to build confidence with wms to open the door to code variations and so you are not even aware of what is being done to help make any of this possible or legitimate. It's not principals here, it's just a lack of understanding of how things work.

Rick - I know more about patents and copyrights than I ever wanted to. I do understand the difference between owner and licensee. I also know more about the pinball quagmire than I ever wanted to.

You clearly don't understand (or choose to muddy the waters) what most of these 3rd party systems do. In the case of the games I mentioned, there is not one SINGLE piece of WMS code used in those games. They are based on completely different architectures with code written from scratch from the ground up. There is nothing they are doing that they need permission from WMS to use except dot patterns for video sequences that are copies of original game patterns. This is a completely different scenario than the ROMs, Nucore, and other issues of the past.

I also know that they were not told by WMS to take things down or out. It was by you. Maybe you'd like to share with us who the contact is at WMS that we should get ahold of since you suggested I take it to WMS?

I know you are trying to find ways that we can all work together, but your motivations are not purely for the benefit of the hobby. And that's OK, you're entitled to make a money in this hobby. But, on this subject please don't sit here and plead that it's all WMS. I personally heard you make the statement that CCC is a thorn in your side because it's going to make it hard for you to remake CC since no-one will want it without CCC. Well, you're off the mark a bit there because there aren't many buyers interested in CC as it was regardless of whether CCC existed or not. The stock game isn't that good.

But look, I believe I was VERY fair in my OP and stand by it completely. It also was not a Rick or PPS bashing fest. You do a lot of good things. But, on this subject, we obviously have a difference of opinion. But, you do indicate that you are TRYING to make things right for CCC. As I said, I hope that happens and my opinion will change when it does. But, I will then be watching very carefully how things are handled in the future.

Jaz

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from Jazman:

Rick - I know more about patents and copyrights than I ever wanted to. I do understand the difference between owner and licensee. I also know more about the pinball quagmire than I ever wanted to.
You clearly don't understand (or choose to muddy the waters) what most of these 3rd party systems do. In the case of the games I mentioned, there is not one SINGLE piece of WMS code used in those games. They are based on completely different architectures with code written from scratch from the ground up. There is nothing they are doing that they need permission from WMS to use except dot patterns for video sequences that are copies of original game patterns. This is a completely different scenario than the ROMs, Nucore, and other issues of the past.
I also know that they were not told by WMS to take things down or out. It was by you. Maybe you'd like to share with us who the contact is at WMS that we should get ahold of since you suggested I take it to WMS?
I know you are trying to find ways that we can all work together, but your motivations are not purely for the benefit of the hobby. And that's OK, you're entitled to make a money in this hobby. But, on this subject please don't sit here and plead that it's all WMS. I personally heard you make the statement that CCC is a thorn in your side because it's going to make it hard for you to remake CC since no-one will want it without CCC. Well, you're off the mark a bit there because there aren't many buyers interested in CC as it was regardless of whether CCC existed or not. The stock game isn't that good.
But look, I believe I was VERY fair in my OP and stand by it completely. It also was not a Rick or PPS bashing fest. You do a lot of good things. But, on this subject, we obviously have a difference of opinion. But, you do indicate that you are TRYING to make things right for CCC. As I said, I hope that happens and my opinion will change when it does. But, I will then be watching very carefully how things are handled in the future.
Jaz

From your statement I don't think you undestand copyright issues - CCC is fine if they didn't use the Animations or the sound - I've been consistent from day one. I do undertand P-Roc and those 3rd party systems - my background was software development and hardware architectures, so please don't tell me what I don't understand - because I do understand alot of this is why I am trying to navigate to get some of this to happen.

rick

17
#39 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

i can always stop working on this if people would prefer that ... then nothing would move forward.

Please just stop with this attitude. Its not needed. How would wms ever find out about ccc btw? Be the bigger person.There are a boatload of people n this hobby who help a TON for free like epthgeek who did ccc and markmon who does tons of tech help. Neither threaten to walk when their efforts are stifled

-1
#40 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

parts have been selling well without any code updates ... so I wish that was the case but it's really not.

Fair enough.
Now back on topic...

Quoted from Jazman:

I've had a couple people ask me why I cancelled my order. If you want to know why keep reading. If you don't want to know, don't care or a closed minded fanboy, then stop reading now.
First, let me say that this doesn't have anything to do with not having the money available. I am very blessed to have a good
paying job that I work very hard at which allows me to have the disposable income to dabble in this hobby.
There are 3 main reasons that I cancelled my order.
1. Up until now, the most I've ever spent on a pin is $3300. I've got a HUO LotR in that range and a lightly
routed PotC at that price (yes, it was a while ago). So, while $8000 for a NIB MM is a great price considering what routed machines were going for, it is still a significantly higher price than I've ever paid for a machine before. Even though I pre-ordered on the spot at the announcement, I've come to my senses in the weeks since. There are other titles out there available today for a lower price that I would much rather own.
2. I have pretty strong reservations about the electronics package of this game. The manufacturer has a very
poor history making pinball machines. I have no doubts that the game will work fine out of the box and for the
short term. But, after scouring the photos and video that Rick has made available, I am concerned about the
long term reliability and ease of serviceability. I also suspect that troubleshooting is going to be quite an
endeavor from what I can see. A pinball machine is a pretty harsh environment due to the
amount of vibration the playfield sees (mainly from the solenoids). It takes a lot of knowledge to design for
that environment. Remember, even B/W had a steep learning curve for these conditions (ie: think trough
transmitter and receiver boards for example). From what I can tell from the pictures (very limited), they are trying to
use off-the-shelf stuff where they can which isn't likely to be designed to withstand vibration. I think it's
going to take quite a bit of time (or high usage on route) to flush out the reliability of the design concept
and implementation of mounting all that to the bottom of the playfield.
That said, I hope I am completely wrong and it's more solid than the original. There are other likely titles
to be re-produced in the future that are much more appealing to me than MM. Since this approach will also be
used for those titles, I would love to see it succeed. But, I'm not willing to be the guinea pig/beta tester
for the platform for $8K of my money
3. The final reason is likely to be controversial. I have a very hard time giving money to Rick and PPS right
now given how they've chosen to address the guys doing custom/improved rulesets of B/W games. These guys are doing what they are with no profit motive and purely for the love of the hobby.
I do understand the requirements of copyright holders to defend their rights or lose them. And it is true that,
in an effort to improve the marginal or unfinished code of existing games instead of totally reinvent them, they
were apparently using video clips from the original code. So, PPS could have chosen to make their efforts legal
by giving them a license to use it as long as they did not sell anything or make a profit. By issuing a license, they are takingsteps to protect their copyright while still allowing the projects to exist and continue. Instead, they have
chosen to say "you need to take that out". Is that within their rights? Yup, it sure is. Just like not buying their product is mine.
This opinion is purely mine and not that of the developers. I am specifically referring to the work done to create
Cactus Canyon Continued and Demolition Time. In these cases, the developers were either required to stop
distributing key pieces (needed to make their stuff work) or completely change what they had created. The work
they have done has only improved and continue to advance this hobby. It is only in Rick's best interest to
support these kinds of efforts.
I am really hoping that Rick and PPS reconsider their position.
Jaz

Well thought out post. +1

#41 6 years ago

In my opinion, we were much better off before emails and forums. Jaz - pick up the phone and call Rick. You both have copyright and programming backgrounds. You can continue the back and forth bickering or have a solid conversation. You both could live a lot longer without the blood pressure spikes.

-1
#42 6 years ago

I'm still waiting on my Funhouse translite

#43 6 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

From your statement I don't think you undestand copyright issues - CCC is fine if they didn't use the Animations or the sound - I've been consistent from day one. I do undertand P-Roc and those 3rd party systems - my background was software development and hardware architectures, so please don't tell me what I don't understand - because I do understand alot of this is why I am trying to navigate to get some of this to happen.
rick

Rick, I am well aware of your background. As I said, you either don't understand or choose to muddy the waters. So, your saying it is the latter. In my OP I very clearly said that my beef was regarding the handling of video and audio clips. Your initial response went straight to code and code changes which has ZERO mention in this thread until you brought it up. I have been consistent since post one. My beef is the fact that you (in conjunction with WMS), have not been willing to give them a free, not for profit license to use the video and audio clips. Apparently you guys decided static artwork is ok but not moving artwork.

Jaz

EDIT: Oh wait, unless video is colorized and for profit, then I guess you can find a way to bless it.

#44 6 years ago

I must be the most selfish person in the world. I own and iphone, and don't care who/where it was made, I have a MMr on order - from Wayne in Aust - and don't care about their past or who's making it, I have a car that was made overseas - and GM is closing down it's factories in Australia.

So long as the product is good, I'm happy. I appreciate that there are regulators to do their job to make sure workers are paid correctly, work safely etc, but I don't think it's my responsibility to boycott products if others have a moral objection so someone involved in a product.

I appreciate the openness of the OP in his/her reasons (no sexism here), and good luck to you. Reason number 3 is the only one that's a bit grating, as it may lead others down a path they don't need to travel.

Good luck Rick and looking forward to the machine.

#45 6 years ago

You wouldn't even wait to play one first?

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Exactly. Larry asked all the old WMS guys in the audience to raise their hands if they fried coils writing a game. Everyone raised their hands. There are other less interesting reasons but liability is a good one.

I'm sorry but this statement feels like the biggest, dumbest cop out I've ever heard and pisses me off every time I hear it used. Let's take CCC as an example. The code is all written that handles the coils. Yet the only thing in dispute is the audio clips. So you're saying what? The audio clips cause the coils to fry? Yet no one has any problem with the actual code that runs the coils. Its a totally lame cop out and anyone trying to use it is lying.

Next, WMS games are not under warranty. No one would be expecting WMS to repair or replace locked on coils caused by software or other. In addition, coils lock up in WMS games with current software. Otherwise, no one would make replacements. They can lock up for a number of reasons like a wire comes off and shorts (a wire soldered on originally by WMS personnel) or a transistor frying, or a switch malfunction that software doesn't handle well, etc.

Properly handling coils would be the responsibility of the person writing the new code. It's just ridiculous for anyone to try to use this excuse in the case of updating old WMS code.

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Making money is not a sin. If a company doesn't make money it doesn't survive and you don't get products that many in the hobby want. This whole concept of doing it for the love of the hobby and money being evil is bs. Very few people here could actually run a company successfully. Making a profit is essential.

If only Liberals would understand this

Post edited by gweempose : Ban warning given for political comment.

#48 6 years ago

I cancelled & bought a NIB Tron. I think if I got the MM,I'd just look at it like I do now days with TZ,& TAF. I mean come on,how many times can you play a game that you've been playing for 20 years & still keep it real.

16
#49 6 years ago

Stay friendly everyone, we are all glad to have Rick on this site to talk to us all and give us updates.

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

I must be the most selfish person in the world. I own and iphone, and don't care who/where it was made, I have a MMr on order - from Wayne in Aust - and don't care about their past or who's making it, I have a car that was made overseas - and GM is closing down it's factories in Australia.
So long as the product is good, I'm happy. I appreciate that there are regulators to do their job to make sure workers are paid correctly, work safely etc, but I don't think it's my responsibility to boycott products if others have a moral objection so someone involved in a product.

The kids over at Nike say thanks

nike-child-labor.jpg

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