It should be standard on everything, period.

Despite the PF issues, and I have a GBLE, they will sell a shit ton of premiums. A phenomenal pin.

I get your sentiment, but its in the extreme minority, and that's ok. I won't buy Star Wars or Iron Maiden either, yet they might be two of Stern's biggest sellers ever.

While I would automatically agree that the code is almost certainly not "finished", I was thinking that it might have also been a strategic reason for Batman66 not to be playable at expo, which is also along the lines of what you said.

Stern can present a shiny game, and not have to undergo any scrutiny of how the game actually plays. They can present it without having to worry about glitches, or something breaking down. As such, there's no Pinside discussion about a failure, or how similar the play is to Batman TDK.

I find it hard to believe that the cabinet, artwork, ramps, and toys can be that polished, and yet the game was 'unplayable'.

I compeltely agree with this. Distract everyone with bling and Adam West, don't have a playing game there for people to criticize next to
Alien and Dialed In and let everyone "WONDER" about the game play. After all, this is a re-theme machine and there is no guarantee how
this game will play. Let them spend mone on "Pretty" and wonder.

Makes me wonder what this world is coming to.....

Shameless Bump!

After the disaster with my GoT LE I was a brave guy and did not buy GB ... I like the game but no more money for NIB STERN until they fix the older games ... and produce playfields in a way better quailty ... and maybe complete pinball machines ... and maybe working pinball machnes as the designers thought .. and ... and ... and ....

Some buyers don't think it's that important to play the game because Gomez and Lyman are the designers so it has to be good.

Weren't Gomez and Lyman the designers on BDK? If BDK isn't that well regarded, what makes BM66 a slam dunk?

KISS code abandoned
GOT code abandoned
ST code abandoned
XMEN code abandoned
GB code (soon to be) abandoned

2016 playfields disintegrating before owners' eyes.

How many more red flags do you guys need before accepting sterns pinflation???

It's much more $$$ so it HAS to be better!

You abandoned the fact that KISS was abandoned too.

Another excellent point! They don't even have to deal with being compared to the other games revealed! And if the game is in any way similar to Batman TDK, there would likely be more discussion about the other two, given that they are completely new games. The spotlight wouldn't be on Stern.

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But didn't KISS get a rather sizable update?

Complacency?
Yeah, well, whatever...

I agree!....er, wait....did you say Star Wars?? TAKE MY MONEY!

I would expect WOF code to be finished before any of those.... as it did come out first.

GOT code is pretty much complete. Nothing major is missing.

ST code was updated by a different programmer who came in and added a new dimension to the rules (which you largely praised).

XMen code was changed dramatically since inception.

Now don't get me wrong, personally I disliked the rules/code on every single one of these pins, but I would never say that I felt that they were "abandoned" by Stern. Just because we personally would have liked additions or changes and Stern didn't do what we wanted doesn't mean that they abandoned us.

Seems like they're all missing that one final bug pass or polish, though.

I agree with that. But you can say that about just about any pin, regardless of the manufacturer or year it was made to an extent.

Kiss is the poorest update of them all. The initial update was because Stern needed to charge their customers $400.00 for the topper.
So, the update was to integrate the topper with the game. The last update was in April which added heavens on fire to a wizard mode and
some subtle differences. That's it. We've been waiting patiently since delivery in August of 2015 for a fully working machine.

Well, I don't notice any bugs or missing features on any of my games. I know people complain about some bugs on NGG...but I've never noticed them - it certainly hasn't ever made the game feel like it wasn't a satisfactory experience - and I think that's ultimately why people are still complaining about the last few Sterns...there's something that clearly lessens the gameplay experience.

I'd say that's kind of a simplistic way of looking at it, but we are dealing with KISS fans here!

The new software added a whole new dimension that is anything but "subtle" - along with another wizard mode (heaven's on fire), most importantly, finishing a song adds a shot and/or playfield multiplier. This can be hugely lucrative and makes advancing through as many songs as you can in one ball a priority to get huge points. It also adds strategy for when you start a multiball. Lots of points on the table now that weren't there, and lots of different choices to be made.

The only thing "unfinished" about this game appears to be the cities, and I'm not sure if you can get collosual bonus yet.

This was never going to be a crazy deep game but it's on par with Iron Man and that should be enough. Not every game needs the LOTR treatment.

I think we can all agree it's deeper than Bally's KISS.

^^^^^^TRUTH^^^^^^
AND

Throw in the $15k machine you have to beg for the privilege to be able to purchase is just the cake, The icing was Stern announced several times via their support and creator that GOT LE/PREM machines had a hardware issue they would fix. The "FIX" was a rewrite of the software to accommodate their faulty hardware! Whats next, rewrite the code for chipping CC in shooter lanes and just say thats common wear and tear Ver 2.0?

GB is excellent as it stands right now.

TWD code, not abandoned and phenomenal.

BM66 code will be phenomenal.

Common denominator is Lyman, with the exception of GB for me.

Stick with Lyman and you can't go wrong.

Your definition of complete is probably right in line with Gary Stern's definition - the inserts work the rules are there tag and bag it; but these are rules not code.

There are still several bugs in GOT & ST; GOT has many code issues that the lead programmer is well aware of. Unfortunately, in sterns effort to avoid the #wheresthecode movement, they are overburdening this programmer by getting his name on as many new pins as possible. And the new programmer did an excellent job with the time he had to polish ST, I'm not discrediting that, but that doesnt mean it wasnt abandoned. The game is still quirky and full of bugs. Knowing that they were not going to address these issues is a big part of my final decision to sell the game.

One last thing ill admit; me using the word 'abandoned' is harsh. It should be more like forgotten as XMEN, TF, TAV, etc... were addressed code wise...but it took them YEARS to finally address it. So code being forgotten or lost in the woods is just yet another RED flag that new collectors need to be made aware of before purchasing pins at these new prices.

There's a reason i didnt mention TWD or any of Lyman's games

I have a GB pro and enjoy it, but the code is not excellent, 1.1 is buggy and needs to be fixed. The pin excellent and as soon as I add something to fix the balls hopping over the outlines I probably will no longer feel like I want to put my head through the glass after playing 10 games.

While I appreciate Lyman's skill and dedication to quality pinball software as much as the next guy (thanks for the Met code Lyman ), having to depend on the heroics of one guy is not a reasonable way for a company so dependent (more every year) on sw for the success of their products to operate.

They should be instiling a culture of code-quality with a team of competent coders and most importantly, company standards that promote and enforce a high level of quality throughout. I'm pretty sure that the individual coders are working hard and reasonably good at what they do, but that the company just doesn't give them the support they need to do the job right (enough time/developers to finish the coding, hw and sw systems that support modern coding techniques and tools, etc.).

Like all things these days, sw is >50% of the product.

They should open it up with code dev kits to allow the community to create their own rulesets. Free work and happy owners = win win.

Brilliant idea. What happens when games start bursting into flames when somebody mangles the code?
Lose - lose.

While I give Gary Stern immense credit for sticking with it when all others bailed, from what I understand of the way he likes to "manage" the creative teams any of the better Stern games have come out have done so in spite of Gary's influence, not because of it.

So in other words they run the place just like Bally/Williams.

Totally agree; which is the primary problem. I think Sterns group of coders and programmers are top notch! - Hell TF & Avengers had some great out of the box code. But, the programmers get oversold before they can finish a game they're working on. Then, when they finally get a minute to breathe, they can revisit those games (if they wish); But 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, or even more time has passed before they're given this time to revisit; and more times than not, they have to revisit it on their own time.

Like i said earlier; price and quality aside, the problem is still with their consistent lack of code development more than anything and should be the #1 reason not to buy a game early on. Im guilty of it, we're all guilty of it; but enough kicks to the nuts doesnt make them numb...eventually you just gotta move out of the way and let someone else take the kicks.

I wouldn't know about that, but even if it is true, it doesn't make it better.

What would be interesting is if the actual "rockstar" employees of Stern got together and did an employee buy-out of the company (top designers, coders, etc.). Then they could decide when a game was "done", what features make the BoM, etc. Maybe partner with a well run company like Eugene Jarvis' Raw Thrills for top level management, marketing, customer service.

Anyway, the current management and culture is sick and probably won't change substantially with the existing players. We need new, hungry competitors with younger teams to provide lifeblood to the industry and to bring modern, customer facing processes and priorities to pinball. That's why I'm really hoping that companies like Heighway and Polymorphic can find a toe-hold and grow to be significant players in the industry. Any company headed by someone from the "old-school" pinball days just isn't likely to "get it" (sorry JJP).

So we either support young new ventures that have a shot at making pinball relevant in the future, or we let the hobby die along with the old-timers that currently run the show.

You should look into this awesome company called Zidware....

Someone is doing an Iron Man re-write with Proc (or similar) but that involves installing extra hardware to bypass sterns system.

I agree, but until Stern changes the way it does business, Lyman is the only pin i buy in the future unless its an awesome theme for me like GB and/or i buy after the code is done, the smart way.

As for GB code its "excellent" now, not done, with so much more potential but yes, its excellent.

Software developer kit should prevent that. Does your phone burst into flames? Oh wait lol samsung

GB will be a disaster for the next 3+ years

Watch

But many wont even notice because they will have a hard on for next incomplete unproven broken game

You're kidding right? Nobody is going to forget this thread. Not going to happen. No way, no how. NEVER!!!

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Wow! 130 upvotes for a single post. Is that a record?

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So, will Star Wars be SW77?

What's disaster about it?

Nvm. I love it doesn't matter

Don't worry, Aerosmith hate will fill up the threads in Jan. Everything will be a distant memory

Whichever one they can sell for $15k, is probably the one they will do.

If BM66 SLE can sell out at $15k do you really expect them to price the 40th anniversary SW77 SLE the same? I see a price increase on the horizon.

Make it 31st or 32nd anniversary. I can see this becoming an annual ritual.

Nope check out this post about Dialed In!

Record upvotes for anti-Stern post
Record upvotes for pro-JJP post

Interesting!

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In reply to the #25 post. I believe that the older collectors have moved on to pinball as it should be....I mean well restored EM machines. Shorter ball times, 'period' style backglasses and clever and colorful playfields without the assist of leds. Classy machines of the past where you can follow the ball 100% of the time without having to watch a dmd skit or having the ball delivered to the flipper via a ramp

I saw enough to take it off my wishlist & piss away that same cash on other games/ill shit.

Ghosting is a HUGE problem & even worse is how Stern ignored my (and many others) emails in regards to PF warranty. Thats a dick move. I dont like dicks. No offense to those that do. My cousin loves em.

Code complaints are a major concern since historical data proves it may never be resolved.

Factor in the airballs, slimer problems, ramp gripes & 5 animations for the goggles.... ah fuck it. I dont need that in my life lol

(As we bicker & disagree always remember this isnt PW vs Ice )