You are talking about the LE buyers, not pinball in general. I have a pinball collection because the closest pinball on location is 7 miles away, and very rarely anything gets rotated. If I want to play the latest Stern, I have to drive downtown (easily a 90 minute drive plus a hassle to find parking). Being a hobbyist almost isn't a choice if you want to play pinball. You gain a collection so you can have people over, so they will in turn also invite you over. I'm not in it for the investment, I just want to play pinball.. And if companies like Stern continue to make it a painful experience for everyone, it's not going to be fun anymore and people will just quit the hobby and pursue something else. There are plenty of other fun things to spend money on, it's not like pinball is the last bastion of entertainment.

there will be positivity when Stern gets those replacement playfields shipped out.
I guess January 2017 they start the "program" ?

What about all of the folks that are first time buyers that have no idea they have a defective product? Has Stern reached out to all buyers through their distributors?

I don't think so.

Not a feel good story for them.

That's a real shame... they know there's a problem but they're doing their best to keep it under wraps.

I think the real issue is that they still seem to be using some of the FUN playfields. Seems like they are picking through them and ones that look good are still being installed. As soon as the problem was found they should have stopped using them all together as it is likely that every last one of them will have ghosting issues at some point in the next few years. Stern chose to go add another supplier, they need to hold that supplier and themselves accountable for that instead of hosing their clients. Premiums are still showing up with ghosting, that's a strong signal to me that the end consumers happiness with the product is not the primary concern. They should have stopped shipping any games with those immediately and sent every last one of those playfields back.

I win both. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The distributor model isolates them from actual buyers. They like it that way. They KEEP it that way. Now they regulate all pricing.

They have distros by the nuggets.

A distributor preorders 20 TFLEs. The game disappoints. They have to sell inventory at a loss eventually.

Next preorder, they try to order 10. Stern says "You want to order LESS? OK, we can give you 5." Distro needs to rep to 20 regardless of title then.

You remove that layer where they need to deal with people and the attitude changes. This won't happen BTW.

If the Distros all don't like it they just need to come together and refuse Stern's new pricing model...Stern needs the Distro's.

Right. JJP won't act like they're doing you a favor when they take 9k off your hands, so that's clearly the way to go!

They will be in for a rude awakening when they go to sell, assuming the buyer knows what to look for. I'm sure plenty of newer collectors would assume that the ghosting is normal.

Certainly distributors could choose to notify all of their customers, which would certainly increase loyalty from them. although would not surprise me if Stern has threatened them not to do that.

Lots of thumbs up for this, but I have to disagree with it.

While I personally agree that there is not close to $15k of value in BM66SLE *to me*, I would never say that the people who do find $15k value in it are delusional or are unable to put proper value to things. There are numerous factors that go into determining an items value to each individual, and those factors will vary greatly on a person by person basis. This should be obvious.

Go outside of this hobby, and think about how easy it would be for a non-pinhead to say that "they can't deliver $6000.00 of value in a pinball machine. That's not possible. Anybody who says that they do is delusional and has no ability to put proper value to things."

Would those people be correct in that statement?

Yes.

They all think we are crazy and they are correct. Most of us have several newer machines and many people on here have more then the average yearly income of a household setting in their game room.

I've not been in the hobby too long but people have always complained about Stern's pricing, quality, features, and code. I don't get people that buy pins, get them home, and then decide if the purchase was worth it. I do get being upset at Stern but not sure why you have to ban them forever. If they can make more great games with a fair price, I am open to buying one. As prices go up, my expectations go up. If prices continue to go up and quality down then I have no problem keeping my money or buying something else.

I have bought several NIB Stern pins the last few years. I will not buy any more NIB Stern pins until they fix their playfield issues. Ghosting and excessive dimples are a real issue. So I will monitor the quality comments on this site and buy again once they can deliver playfields that will not disintegrate. Would love a Ghostbusters but will not buy until this issue is resolved.

^^^^Simple as that. Maybe Stern and JJP have harpooned themselves with this pricing, maybe not, we will see.

You guys are all pissy now but when the next Game comes out Im betting most of you will buy it just like you are buying a revamped Costco Batman for stupid money. Remember that I have been saying for years that Stern is fucking its buyers up the ass and I got poo pooed for it. You are finally realizing it. But it wont last, people have short memories, just look at the people in public office and the shit they do and they still get voted in.

Actually, I don't think most of the people complaining in this thread will be the ones buying the next release.

There will always be buyers who aren't as price sensitive and want the latest game or must have a given theme.

so I have a question.. When this public Stern store opens up on the east coast, are the floor models going to be fresh off the production floor and picked randomly, or are these going to be golden samples that work perfect? Because if it's the latter that's going to give the general public a false impression. It's going to be like a scene from falling down "in the commercials the burgers look big and juicy, what I actually get is a sad burger"

Ooook. Or in the real actual word where we live, I could buy one of the dozens of DMD games available under $4k used.

I agree, I own 9 Stern plus SM sold so out of 18 total pins I've owned 10 Stern

But their lack of code particularly bug fixes and basic polish have got me fed up.

Their cost cutting such as cheap locking mechanisms on STLE for the head and lack of basic PF support.

I always buy PF support for $60 or whatever they cost and put them on my pro pins but now I found on Met pro they stopped putting in the recieving screw hole in the PF like they had in the past, I mean it's insulting cost cutting.

My main think is code not being completed ever and QC issues which fortunately for me have been few, but my last new pin from Stern was IMVE

I think they're a bunch of greedy buggers with the prices they want for such things as toppers or tower mod for TWD which should have been included in the first place IMO

When did I say anything about JJP? Or any other pin manufacturer at all? There are plenty of companies that treat their customers well. If I am buying crap that I don't need, it doesn't have to be a pin. I'll go buy another motorcycle, or a couple of guitars, or 20 pair of Red Wings. I will give my money to companies that treat me like a customer instead of one of their subjects.

I have a feeling the people buying machines from a retail store likely won't know the difference.

This.

LTG : )

I thought we were talking NIB here. Stern is still the cheapest option.

Seems like maybe Gary Stern is behind the banning Pinball News, deleting social media posts attitude. Aren't there stories about him wanting to delete old RGP posts before being told he couldn't do that? Things might not change until he moves on.

Hey, I've bought $30 widget from Amazon and gotten a survey asking how I like it was there anything that could be better? Etc..

But Stern could care less after I buy $6600 XMLE or $7700 for STLE

It's preposterous, I can ask a question if this or that might be address in the code and I don't get a response at all.

I kept reading this as "I'll go buy... 20 orders of wings" and now I'm hungry. THANKS HENRYWINKLER. loved you on Arrested Development

Everybody should take a page out of the Amazon customer service handbook. Simply the best.

It's customer first, profitability second

Does Amazon have distributors? Of course not, they are joined at the hip with the consumer, not hiding from us

For me the coding issue is the biggest one that bugs me. Right now it's Lyman only and maybe Dwight. JJP has proven themselves to be a slam dunk on code

It continues to blow me away how F Ing awful these guys are with their customers.

While I'm not "done" with Stern, if I was Gomez reading this thread I'd be really concerned, even if they think things will go back to normal on the next pin release

I think there are some real burned bridges this time around

I disagree with this strongly. In fact, I think Amazon should become more like Stern, and only produce and sell pinball machines.

...with same day delivery.

I'd love to see drones delivering pins from the sky. That is funny to think about.

This is not a Hobby for Stern, it's a business, and it has been, for 30 years.

Once again, you have completely conflated the pinball hobby with the pinball industry.

Stern isn't looking to make friends, it's looking to make a profit, and this has always been the case.

The hobby side is what you make of it. If you want to make friends, go out, play pinball, go to pinball shows. If you want to buy a brand new pinball machine, go to Stern. Or don't.

As Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know the rest of the story. Good day?!"

None of areas mentioned are new. This has occurred at all levels since Stern returned to the industry after WMS closed. In 5 years, this same thread will be full of inactive members, and cycle begins all over again. You either accept it, or you don't. Some fanboys might even be enlightened.

Actually not true.
B66SLE was 100% sold by Stern. The distributors were "cut out". You pay Stern directly; not a distributor. I've seen the emails Gary sent his 80 "lucky" buyers.
So not only is Stern doing a big money grab with this product; but they are increasing their bottom line by cutting out the distributors cut.

I belief that Stern may actually begin moving their non-Pro product lines to "direct to buyer" pricing model; now that they've gotten a taste of not having to provide the distributors of their cut.

Never been ethical... Gary learned it from his dad. Go back and look at how Stern ripped off CPU and board designs from Bally. And ended up getting sued. It's not an "accident" that Stern and Bally boards are basically interchangeable for almost a decade.

Ultimately the question I ask is - why should I care? The hobby will be just fine regardless.

Pinball has "died" so many times I've lost count. And you keep talking about "ethics" and trying to convince us Stern is just filled with bad hombres who aren't nice guys. Again, why should I care?

Bally used to be owned by the friggin' MOB for pete's sake. And they killed people!!!

I have been very disappointed in the quality and price of food McDonalds has been selling for the last several years. But instead of just not going there anymore, I might have to make it my crusade to spread the word and see how many other people I can get on the boycott bandwagon.

Forget Stern... Go back and get those Williams titles when quality and finished code meant something.

Get a grip.

I'm not talking about China. I'm talking about Stern pinball, and your pointless crusade to get us all to hate them because their games cost more than you think they should. That's REALLY what this is all about, which is as "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME, AS LONG AS I GET MINE" as it gets.

You are super not acting like a drama queen because Batman costs too much.

Your first post was simply you whining about Stern charging too much for pinball machines.

Since that didn't go over as well as you were hoping, you are now talking about China and ethics.

You didn't care about Stern's "ethics" until they asked $15,000 for a pinball machine. Nice crusade, bro.

Hey buddy, no burgerments in this thread.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/mcdonalds-burger-that-looks-the-same-as-day-it-was-cooked-14-years-ago/story-fneuz8zj-1226628424189

That mob certainly made good pinball machines, got to give them that.

Gary pretty much kept pinball going through the dark ages on his own. No one does that unless they love pinball. Has he made missteps along the way? Absolutely. Has he produced crap games? Certainly. He has also given us some really cool games that wouldn't otherwise exist. I give him a pass on almost anything for his accomplishments and contributions, when Williams, Sega, and Data East rolled over and peed on themselves like scared little dogs.

But let's face it - Gary's not getting any younger. He's ceded some control of his company to a partner and is probably looking to hang it up in the near future. The more money he can make now, the better for him when he retires. He has always been thin-skinned and his attitude has never been to take care of customers - the unfinished code on games past proves that. He's only going to do what has value to him, because that's the only way he knows how to model his business. How much of this latest debacle originates from Marketing and Sales, lawyers, accountants, partners, or Gary himself? We don't know. But I seriously suspect that even if Gary left the company tomorrow, it would be business as usual - or worse, because that's the culture that the company now operates under.

It amazes me that many people have already forgotten Stern's "future plans" so quickly.
They are/were planning on opening the "Stern Store" in PA in 2017, and had plans for other state locations next year as well.
"Test business opportunities" to see if the concept was beneficial, one step at a time.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-store-coming-to-pennsylvania

It was not some sort of troll post, like so many people originally thought.
It was not a "franchise".
No distributor involvement there either.
The "middle man" was completely gone.
Will the prices be lowered? Highly unlikely.
Does it significantly increase profit margins? Yes.

Stern is preparing for the next iteration of the market changes in order to ensure their success, including periods of industry stagnation caused by their own decisions.
Just recognize this tiny niche world can be cutthroat due to the fickle nature of the buyers whether private or operator.
This also includes innovation, design, and electronics.
One fart in the wrong direction, can cause eventual collapse of the deck of cards, resulting in a "hibernation effect" of the entire industry.
People must give Stern credit for exploring every option to generate additional income, because happy times do not last forever.

As I stated, new collectors simply won't care what happened in the past, and it that is perfectly acceptable, not that think it is particularly smart. I like free choice, opportunities, and speech, as that is what I fought to protect regarding freedoms.
What I don't like is dismissing that "things never ever happened before in the history of pinball" in order to justify some sort of argument, purchase, or epeen. That just implies willful ignorance.

"Knowledge and education provides respect of the past, understanding of the present, and predictions of future."
If people use it, owners can avoid problems.
Unfortunately, most people that buy pinball machines simply are not hobbyist, related to the industry, on forums, or even interested in whatever developments may occur.
Less than 10% of the entire pinball owners even probably reads PinSide, even Facebook has a better audience.

It is time for many to step away from the rat race of NIB machines again, and not exclusively due to pricing.

It is very hard pressed for anyone to get me to believe after so many years collecting that Stern's quality assurance, quality control, features (or reduction thereof), and pricing are comparable now to most titles made in the 1970s, 80s, or 90s either based on construction to cost, or construction and features to cost, as it just does not balance out.
They are not even fully addressing observations of issues that are being pointed out by very knowledgeable people in some cases.
Stern has made some very good games over the past 5 years, but they have managed to alienate a large majority of hardened old school collectors in just a few months with their myriad of decisions, that once again are not due exclusively to pricing.

For the rest, new collectors make up their own minds what quality is worth.

Unless he doesn't know how to do anything other than be a figure head of a pinball company.

Wow, I missed this tidbit of information.
Kinda glad I did... given he OP didn't understand CAPS lock.