Based on the current trajectory I think it'll be many years before the prices level out...especially when they can sell 80 $15k Batman machines in the blink of an eye and several distros have already taken of deposits on an unannounced, unquantified, unpriced Star Wars machine.
I just hope that the long-time Stern employees who ground it out during the lean years are being well taken care of with these huge price increases.
Quoted from aingide:I just hope that the long-time Stern employees who ground it out during the lean years are being well taken care of with these huge price increases.
Quoted from rolandthoms:It's a free market economy. Buy if you like. Don't buy if you do not like. I love my Stern machines. Can't wait to get an Alien. And a Jjp down the road. And my Ghostbusters. Competition is coming and that's good for everyone. It's great that Stern is doing well. We WANT them to be successful and healthy. This ranting sounds like a bunch of "woe is me, the sky is falling, why don't you love me anymore" petty bull$hit.
You guys are pretty tough on this post, but he's correct. Stern will keep raising prices and cutting corners until it hurts their business. There is no reason not to. You've got people tripping over their dicks to buy a $15k pinball machine. They are in business to make a profit. When QC, pricing, and competition start to eat into sales and profits they will have to address it.
I am SO saving this thread to see how many people here stick to their guns when all the "Dream themes" come out. We'll see who has willpower vs who piles on the "hell with stern" bandwagon.
You can count me in on the "Stick to their guns" team. I loathe Stern for what they are doing and the big "hell with you" attitude they are giving the community.
Quoted from Dewey68:They are in business to make a profit. When QC, pricing, and competition start to eat into sales and profits they will have to address it.
Actually, its only when us NIB buyers start to consistently lose $1,500 to $2k on the secondary pin market that Stern will have to address it.
And its not just Stern, $8500 Woz, TH's and $9500 DI's will all be $1k-$1500 below NIB in 2017 secondary market. Just sayin.
Quoted from Dewey68:You guys are pretty tough on this post, but he's correct. Stern will keep raising prices and cutting corners until it hurts their business. There is no reason not to. You've got people tripping over their dicks to buy a $15k pinball machine. They are in business to make a profit. When QC, pricing, and competition start to eat into sales and profits they will have to address it.
All i'm sayin' is I bought NIB before, probably won't again.. Maybe they should be pricing lower to get more business from people like me.. maybe they're doing great with tiny runs of 15k super LEs. The market will sort it out, I'm just here to play pinball.
Quoted from iceman44:Actually, its only when us NIB buyers start to consistently lose $1,500 to $2k on the secondary pin market that Stern will have to address it.
And its not just Stern, $8500 Woz, TH's and $9500 DI's will all be $1k-$1500 below NIB in 2017 secondary market. Just sayin.
Yeah, when manufacturers see games go up on the secondary market it tells them loud and clear that they underpriced it and they adjust.
Unfortunately what I don't think they are accounting for is that when games go up like that its because the game has proven itself. Will people be willing to pay those prices for unproven games? Maybe... seems like it.
Quoted from Pinballbuyer:I wrote a polite letter to Gary Stern last November about my machine and the way customer service did not seem to care about loosing my bussiness. I outlined the issues and sent pictures then explained I have been in the hobby since 1996 and have bought over fifty machines since then and he never cared to respond to my letter. It was very polite and not nasty at all. Just wanted him to know how I was treated and that I was very upset with his support. Its been a year now and still no responce. I will never give them a dime on a new machine. I like stern machines, but they dont deserve my money. And they didnt care about loosing me either. Stern is the Good fellas of pinball. Not happy with our machine, F you pay me. Got any complaints F you pay me. Giot to fix your own new machine? , F you pay me.
Did you proof read your letter to Stern? If it was anything like above I wouldn't have responded either.
Quoted from merccat:Yeah, when manufacturers see games go up on the secondary market it tells them loud and clear that they underpriced it and they adjust.
When they see "greedy pinheads" (as they see it) step all over their dicks to grab a GBLE at $8k to flip for $9k-$10k before it ships, what do you expect?
Who's to blame?
Blame me all you want Curly! 
Raise your hand if you have played a BM66? Nobody? Didn't think so.
When it comes out and IF Stern doesn't deliver perceived value then they have totally F ed themselves on this deal.
I believe they will deliver my "perceived value", and I don't really care wtf anybody else thinks 
I just got through Ballroom on my kick ass GBLE, excellent quality btw. And absolutely gorgeous!
Quoted from Pinballbuyer:I wrote a polite letter to Gary Stern last November about my machine and the way customer service did not seem to care about loosing my bussiness. I outlined the issues and sent pictures then explained I have been in the hobby since 1996 and have bought over fifty machines since then and he never cared to respond to my letter. It was very polite and not nasty at all. Just wanted him to know how I was treated and that I was very upset with his support. Its been a year now and still no responce. I will never give them a dime on a new machine. I like stern machines, but they dont deserve my money. And they didnt care about loosing me either. Stern is the Good fellas of pinball. Not happy with our machine, F you pay me. Got any complaints F you pay me. Giot to fix your own new machine? , F you pay me.
Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that a business who decides to block people and delete posts from their social media pages instead of replying to concerns isn't responding to a handwritten letter. It's 2016 and if a business doesn't have the ability to properly utilize social media and respond to their customers in what is likely the easiest way possible, I seriously doubt that they will take the time to respond to a letter. Hell, I would bet that they didn't even take the time to even read the letter in the first place.
I choose not to buy NIB from Stern simply because Stern chooses to pretend that social media platforms are actually fascist media platforms and delete any post that brings attention to their shortcomings and then ban the user that posted it. Stern's failure to understand and adapt to younger generations will eventually be their downfall if they don't turn things around.
Quoted from iceman44:Raise your hand if you have played a BM66?
Costco shoppers played it before the art update 
Quoted from PW79:Costco shoppers played it before the art update
Pinball prices are rigged I tell you! The whole F ing system is rigged against us!!! WTF are we going to do?
We can't quit you bunch of weak pansies! Did we quit when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell No!
Come on, who's with me, let's torch this F ing rigged system and burn it down to the ground!!!
Quoted from HenryWinkler:Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that a business who decides to block people and delete posts from their social media pages instead of replying to concerns isn't responding to a handwritten letter. It's 2016 and if a business doesn't have the ability to properly utilize social media and respond to their customers in what is likely the easiest way possible, I seriously doubt that they will take the time to respond to a letter. Hell, I would bet that they didn't even take the time to even read the letter in the first place.
I choose not to buy NIB from Stern simply because Stern chooses to pretend that social media platforms are actually fascist media platforms and delete any post that brings attention to their shortcomings and then ban the user that posted it. Stern's failure to understand and adapt to younger generations will eventually be their downfall if they don't turn things around.
Yeah it's sad. Heck, Stern banned PinballNews.com from going to this years Stern Expo factory tour just because they questioned the price of Batman SLE...After years of free coverage for their games that's how Stern treats them? Who wouldn't question a $15k pinball machine? Absolutely ridiculous.
Quoted from iceman44:Raise your hand if you have played a BM66? Nobody? Didn't think so.
When it comes out and IF Stern doesn't deliver perceived value then they have totally F ed themselves on this deal.
I believe they will deliver my "perceived value", and I don't really care wtf anybody else thinks
I just got through Ballroom on my kick ass GBLE, excellent quality btw. And absolutely gorgeous!
They can't deliver $15,000 of value in a game. That's not possible. Anybody who says that they do is delusional and has no ability to put proper value to things.
My decision not to support them isn't solely based on pricing, however. It's their attitude. It's their sense of entitlement and their disrespect for their customers. They lie to us. Often.
Quoted from PW79:Costco shoppers played it before the art update
Holy shit if I would have stumbled across that at my local Costco I would have sprained my credit cards something fierce. Is that "The Pin" Batman? I thought there was only a Transformers!
Quoted from HenryWinkler:Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that a business who decides to block people and delete posts from their social media pages instead of replying to concerns isn't responding to a handwritten letter. It's 2016 and if a business doesn't have the ability to properly utilize social media and respond to their customers in what is likely the easiest way possible, I seriously doubt that they will take the time to respond to a letter. Hell, I would bet that they didn't even take the time to even read the letter in the first place.
I choose not to buy NIB from Stern simply because Stern chooses to pretend that social media platforms are actually fascist media platforms and delete any post that brings attention to their shortcomings and then ban the user that posted it. Stern's failure to understand and adapt to younger generations will eventually be their downfall if they don't turn things around.
Agreed. Marketing myopia is going to have a negative impact on their sales in the long run.
It will just make any potential transition that much harder to make when the current target demographic is no longer viable.
I guess their marketing philosophy is milk it while it lasts and worry about that event happening later.
They have always been a reactive, rather than a proactive company in that regard though.
Quoted from jar155:My decision not to support them isn't solely based on pricing, however. It's their attitude. It's their sense of entitlement and their disrespect for their customers. They lie to us. Often.
I get where you are coming from Jar, but since when has pinball been filled with pillars of truth?
I started back in with JJP and Woz and it was one lie after another, and Jack is still going. So is Andrew at Heighway, obviously Jpop and SkitB (those two in another league), Homepin, AP, who am I missing?
Well Spooky is about the only honest upfront group in the bunch.
They LIE to sell pinball machines and yes its F ed up and disrespectful and there is a lot of garbage on the other side of the table too.
I say more power to you and the people that don't want to support Stern, but you better take a look at the rest of pinball while you are at it.
As for the 80 people that paid $15k for a BMSLE66 I don't see why everybody gets bent out of shape over it. It's a small crowd and we aren't in it. So what.
Go buy a F ing great GB premium for $6700 shipped or pro for $5500. Awesome pin. Or a Spooky RZ.
Stern makes a luxury good. Luxury goods don't care what inflation looks like, it's simple supply and demand. Luxury items create their own special markets.
Speculators buy everything with no intention of keeping anything, similar to StubHub. They have the fastest computer or the best hookups and will make enough money from presales to cover any losses from what ends up being a dog. Even the dogs will find a home due to geography and demand. Reminds me of IPOs where an extremely limited number of people have dibs to the first offerings.
Collectors buy games in hopes of them becoming Collector's Items. Franklin Mint, Precious Moments, etc. all have their own secondary markets that only those collectors value. Collectors sell items amongst themselves or to hobbyists or someone like me who just wants to have a couple machines for entertainment. Collectors range from day traders to 401k holders and no matter where they fall in that range they expect to make a profit over the long run.
Hobbyists are like the folks who go to Vegas. Some can afford more than others, they'll buy and sell based on entertainment value, not profit and losses but every now and then they will get lucky. They may pull the trigger on a NIB if the right one pops up (Willy Wonka), and they will always keep their eye open for a deal that they can play, not flip.
A person has to be crazy to think that Stern doesn't monitor the primary, secondary and tertiary market on their products. Their line seems to be flexible enough to respond to all three demands. Reasearch for primary and secondary markets is easy enough just by looking around Pinside before a game is announced up to the first delivery. If collectors can keep the used market high enough Stern can increase supply and capture even more profit through VE and reruns years after the speculators have come and gone.
The question is which market is going to sacrifice themselves for the good of the community?
Last point concerns designers, coders, developers and artists. Certain folks have attained rock star status with a fan base that will jump on anything with their name on it. Stern knows this, the rock stars know this, and their compensation probably reflects this. It's hard to imagine these guys get pay raises or bonuses based on inflation rates.
Quoted from PW79:Costco shoppers played it before the art update
O wow it is very similar.... first ive seen this...
Quoted from Cornelius:Stern could definitely use a more pleasant social media person, for sure.
Well, I don't know if they are pleasant or not, they removed the only comment I ever made to them without responding to me... and then they banned me from posting anything else.
Stern should realize that social media doesn't ONLY exist for promoting their business. It is also there to give them an opportunity to provide customer service and allow their customers to socialize with the company and other customers.
Don't like that one of your customers posted an issue or a negative comment? Show them (and everyone else) that you care and will fix the problem or address the concern in a way that spins criticism in your favor. Go hard or go home. If you aren't going to use social media effectively, don't use it at all. Using it poorly does more harm than good.
I'm curious...anyone have an idea of what percentage of Pinsider's buy NIB Stern games? This percentage would take into account for all models. 20%-30% pro's and premiums, and ALL LE's?
Stern needs to take a second look at a percentage of Pinsider's alone that they are loosing as regular repeat customers moving forward. Count me out for all NIB LE's. That's 12k x 3 new titles per year...-36k.
This may go down as one of the most anti-Stern threads ever- wow, so much animosity out there. It's seems that I may be in the minority, but I not only really enjoy my Stern titles but feel they have released some of the best games ever made:TWD, MET, ACDC, ST, GB, Tron, SM, LOTR, the list goes on and I'm really looking forward to the new releases to follow. All of my Stern titles really resonate with my friends and family.
Now in saying that, I understand the frustrations with some of the quality control issues and new pricing model. Living in Canada has translated into very high NIB pricing, not just for Stern, but also for JJP and the other boutique manufacturers.
It seems that many are angered with Sterns lack of apparent care for their loyal clients; but as others have said before, until buyers stop buying, it's unlikely they or JJP will alter their pricing model. This is just my humble opinion and I truly enjoy this hobby. I hope there is much more positivity as we enter into 2017.
Quoted from jar155:They can't deliver $15,000 of value in a game. That's not possible. Anybody who says that they do is delusional and has no ability to put proper value to things.
Is BBB worth $15K? Only 222 of those.
There is no other really valid comparison because at 80, it just isn't there.
Is the BM66SLE worth it? Not to me, neither is BBB, but it is to whole lot of collectors.
The same people will defend a Tron LE, 400 of which were produced, at a $10k price tag with an all out death match. And I wouldn't give $5k for one.
Let's put things in proper perspective how about it, the whole thing is F ed up, but focus in and spin whatever you want.
Quoted from iceman44:As for the 80 people that paid $15k for a BMSLE66 I don't see why everybody gets bent out of shape over it. It's a small crowd and we aren't in it. So what.
Go buy a F ing great GB premium for $6700 shipped or pro for $5500. Awesome pin. Or a Spooky RZ.
I am totally fine with the 80 people that paid 15k for this warmed over BDK. I'm also fine with anybody that wants to pay 5500 for a pro. And it they pY that much for a pro, I'll be good when they are paying 6200 for that pro down the road a bit. I don't care...
However, I do care what I pay for a game. And I'm not paying over 5k for a pro. The value of the game isn't higher than that to me. If someone else will pay higher, great for Stern. But it sounds to me like a lot more people are rejecting the pricing than are willing to pay it. Only Stern will know if it was a good idea or not.
Quoted from DaveH:But it sounds to me like a lot more people are rejecting the pricing than are willing to pay it. Only Stern will know if it was a good idea or not.
How many times have we heard that before? Maybe this time it will be "the one".
The selective outrage is comical though.
I'll tell you something else, the same time everybody is bashing Stern and wanting to burn it down, you are doing the same thing to your own horde of pins. Take a look at the market. It's all relative.
At the end of the day, 2017 is gonna be quite a year, in a lot of ways.
Quoted from iceman44:Raise your hand if you have played a BM66? Nobody? Didn't think so.
When it comes out and IF Stern doesn't deliver perceived value then they have totally F ed themselves on this deal.
I believe they will deliver my "perceived value", and I don't really care wtf anybody else thinks
I just got through Ballroom on my kick ass GBLE, excellent quality btw. And absolutely gorgeous!
Exactly, no one has played it and they are asking people to agree to buy it. Even JJP finally got away from that. Don't you find it odd that the other start ups are fighting to not do this and stern, a company that doesn't need to do this suddenly is now.
Got to give it to them though. They obviously did their research and knew the community would bend over and take it. They found a way to have people begging to be able to pay 15k for a game. This has to be Gary's new business card.
Quoted from iceman44:I'll tell you something else, the same time everybody is bashing Stern and wanting to burn it down, you are doing the same thing to your own horde of pins. Take a look at the market. It's all relative
I would love for the prices of pinball to return to what he had a decade ago. My pins aren't an investment. I honestly wouldn't care if my AFM was worth $3,500 again. I know supply and demand makes that impossible, but man, those were the days.
How about this?
While waiting for Woz, I paid $5200 for a LOTRLE on closeout over 5 years ago, sold it recently for $6300
I thought it was the absolute dumbest thing I ever did in my life at the time. This F ing pinball machine showed up at my house, I thought it sucked at first, I sucked at pinball and was like I can't believe what i just did! What a moron i am.
Now, I love pinball, love my TWDLE, GBLE and AC/DC premium and paid $6,200, $7,600 and $8,000 for those 3. Stupid? Maybe, probably, but I love it.
I have a BM66LE for $9500 coming, first LCD, Lyman, 30th anniversary, etc. and I really don't give a F what anybody else thinks, I'm gonna have a blast with it. Stupid? Maybe, probably. Why do you care?
If people want to send a message to Stern, hell yeah, rage against that machine, knock yourselves out, won't bother me, in fact, when and if i get tired of all of the BS you guys might get a helluva deal on my pins in the secondary market. What's not to like about that?
Quoted from jgentry:Got to give it to them though. They obviously did their research and knew the community would bend over and take it. They found a way to have people begging to be able to pay 15k for a game. This has to be Gary's new business card.
So what?
Quoted from jar155:I would love for the prices of pinball to return to what he had a decade ago. My pins aren't an investment. I honestly wouldn't care if my AFM was worth $3,500 again. I know supply and demand makes that impossible, but man, those were the days.
And they are LONG GONE. At least you got to experience it a decade ago. Be careful what you wish for, if prices return to what it was a decade ago its ALL OVER. No more NIB's, just collector sales.
How is that a good thing?
Quoted from PW79:Ice while you're all fired up can you elaborate on JJP's Dialed In?
Bahahahaha
No thanks Curly. But I'm debating whether or not to rush out and be one of the first 2,500 to grab that LE spot, or was it 6,999?
OR maybe I'll hit the $12,500 Super LE before 12/31? Is that a hard cutoff? Do we know for sure? Have we hit double digit sales on that one yet?
Yep, its all about Stern being F ed up isn't it.
Quoted from spfxted:Pretty powerful first post, but if Star Wars sells out in 3 hours…..
Sheeeeeeeeeet, it already has. And not by me.
And then Pulp Fiction, Iron Maiden and Elvira 3. Can you imagine the outcry of "TAKE MY MONEY"!!!!!!
Curly, if you stopped doing blow and weed you'd have a BM66LE!
The hate storm toward Stern has been brewing for a while. Is the $15k machine you have to get on your knees and beg for Gary's blessing to be able to purchase what finally pushes things to an adjustment point?
Look, it's a small community. It's not a huge hobby. There is a Goliath and a handful of small volume producers. It's recovering and there is interest from younger people (thanks to Pinball Arcade for example) but the entire problem is Stern's attitude.
I never bought a Stern NIB but many of you did. You supported Stern. The lean times indeed were very lean. Now what? You still support Stern and Stern spits on you. They not only spit in your face as a thanks for your business but go so far as having you beg for the permission for them to do so.
Pinball is fun. Right? Right. Show appreciation toward your customers. Support the community. Bring people together. Stern has gone Hollywood and doesn't give a flying F about anything other than the bottom line. That is what is rubbing so many people the wrong way.
Why can't Stern and their fans have a solid, mutually beneficial relationship that is not based on getting fleeced? Why is Stern so insecure that they ban people from their events who do not report things the way they want things reported? It's insane.
The pricing we can all deal with as it will adjust on its own. The sheer greed and arrogance is something else is entirely. I hope they fall and fall hard. The competition is getting better even if Stern can't see it over the piles of cash they are making love to at the moment.
Quoted from callmesteam:I'm not blaming Jared, I don't think he's the only keeper of the keys, and I think he wants to be as positive as possible. Other folks at Stern calling out people on the Dead Flip Twitch chat during a live factory feed is petty, childish, awkward and unprofessional.
Gomez and Lyman are great, so are many other people at Stern. Are there a few dicks? It seems like Jody is at the top of the list?
A couple of Weiners don't make it all bad. That's Stern's problem though. Communication and marketing is F ing awful and that is what i expect from them and everybody else. What else is new?
Quoted from Sticky:The sheer greed and arrogance is something else is entirely.
It's not just Stern. Other companies as well. Oh, and the used market for older titles is out of control. Stern Pro for $5200 USD is going too far ... check out some of the ads for beat up used titles from 20 years ago.
Look in the mirror, comrades.
Myself? Tough position as an OP. People want to try the latest and greatest. Old games people have played hundreds of times don't earn as well as new titles. Money is tight.
Instead, I'm going even older! Picked up a project Joker Poker, and a real sweet Stern Meteor. On the look out for more beat up old titles. That's what 2017 looks like to me.
Quoted from HenryWinkler:Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that a business who decides to block people and delete posts from their social media pages instead of replying to concerns isn't responding to a handwritten letter. It's 2016 and if a business doesn't have the ability to properly utilize social media and respond to their customers in what is likely the easiest way possible, I seriously doubt that they will take the time to respond to a letter. Hell, I would bet that they didn't even take the time to even read the letter in the first place.
Where I work letters get priority, mainly because they are strictly logged. Phone calls, not as much.
Quoted from smokedog:It's not just Stern. Other companies as well. Oh, and the used market for older titles is out of control. Stern Pro for $5200 USD is going too far ... check out some of the ads for beat up used titles from 20 years ago.
Look in the mirror, comrades.
Myself? Tough position as an OP. People want to try the latest and greatest. Old games people have played hundreds of times don't earn as well as older titles. Money is tight.
Instead, I'm going even older! Picked up a project Joker Poker, and a real sweet Stern Meteor. On the look out for more beat up old titles. That's what 2017 looks like to me.
The used market is in flux because instead of people shelling out $10k for a NIB they look for value in a used title. You then see prices exploding as 'underrated' tables get snatched up. I expect 'values' like I500, Firepower, Shadow, and Congo to go up as Scared Stiff, White Water, MM, etc., already are priced out of reach and you see people just trying to flip them to cash in.
Going even older is smart and I respect that move as many of us forget just how many great pins have been produced. Nobody can possibly say money spent and enjoyment in a pin are somehow equatable.
There's nothing to really stress about here. All the prices going up, used, new, etc., is a good sign as far as general interest. I just hate how Stern and JJP are taking this as an opportunity to push things to the breaking point.
Quoted from iceman44:When they see "greedy pinheads" (as they see it) step all over their dicks to grab a GBLE at $8k to flip for $9k-$10k before it ships, what do you expect?
Quoted from Dewey68:You've got people tripping over their dicks to buy a $15k pinball machine.
This hobby is a dick measuring contest.
Quoted from HenryWinkler:Well, I don't know if they are pleasant or not, they removed the only comment I ever made to them without responding to me... and then they banned me from posting anything else.
This won't matter until the social media platforms start dinging the businesses for this behavior.
A great start would be a deleted comments counter on the thread... like the number of likes.
On a personal social account; it wouldn't matter... but if you say 16.5k likes 23k deleted comments... id be concerned.
I don't even "like" stern's FB account anymore. It's a soap box that provides no real value to us "hobbyist".
Quoted from Zitt:I don't even "like" stern's FB account anymore. It's a soap box that provides no real value to us "hobbyist".
Same here. Once I realized that the only thing that Stern cares about is separating me from my money, I decided that it was time to move on. There's plenty of other companies out there willing to take my money for crap that I don't need... companies that don't act like they're doing me a favor taking 6k off my hands.
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