(Topic ID: 172477)

I've been a long time Stern Pinball fan, but I'm done with them.


By jar155

2 years ago



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    There are 767 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 16.
    170
    #1 2 years ago

    I've been in this hobby for over a decade, and all that time I have done my best to support Stern Pinball. I have defended the tough decisions they had to make in the down years, and I've tried to stay patient in recent years. I've spent lots of money on their games, but I have purchased my last NIB Stern Pinball machine and official Stern product (mods, accessories, etc.).

    If you want the long story, I wrote an article about it, here: http://gamertheory.com/article.aspx/505/Stern-Pinball-has-turned-its-back-on-the-pinball-hobbyist/

    If you want the tl;dr, I basically feel like Stern Pinball has lost its way and has turned its back on the hobbyists and collectors that kept them alive through their lean years. Quality of components has gone down, quality control has plummeted, but prices are far outpacing inflation. Stern is difficult to communicate with, and they only care about your wallet. Until practices dramatically change, I'm done supporting Stern Pinball in any fashion. These couple of statements from my article about sum it up:

    "Stern's price increases are severely outpacing inflation. Stern's quality control has noticeably slipped over the years, and the ever cheapening of components and process is seeing problems with cabinet decals peeling, playfields chipping, electronic components failing, and mechanical failing or acting in unreliable fashion prematurely. You are paying more for a product that is becoming more problematic. [...] Stern doesn't care about you, they care about how many zeroes they can knock off the end of your bank account statement.

    We want to be customers, not a sketchy salesman's mark. So Stern, you may have kept the lights on in the manufacturing plant, but we were the ones that paid for the electric bill. It's a shame how easily you have forgotten, or worse, try to ignore that fact."

    34
    #2 2 years ago

    Divorce is an every day occurrence these days. The best thing to do is move on and pay as little alimony as possible.

    #3 2 years ago

    Jeff - I'm shocked! Why haven't you ever mentioned this on your podcast?!

    Okay - seriously, sorry to hear that you and many other pinheads are so unhappy with Stern. I'm not there yet, but I've been fortunate to avoid their playfield debacle and resultant game delays. Future prices look to be a different matter though.

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    Jeff -
    I'm shocked! Why haven't you ever mentioned this on your podcast?!
    Okay - seriously, sorry to hear about that you and other pinheads are so unhappy with Stern. I'm not there yet, but I've been fortunate to avoid their playfield debacle and resultant game delays. Future prices look to be a different matter though.

    Haha, yeah...I've actually TRIED to stay positive lately, but I've been worn down. After having lived through the Austin Powers years, it would be nice to not be treated so poorly in the Metallica and Ghostbusters years.

    #5 2 years ago

    Seems like it all started when they had IGN doing unboxing videos

    #6 2 years ago

    I'm with ya bro. Their increasing prices is just getting to be too much. Lack of completed code and quality issues doesn't help either.

    #7 2 years ago

    I've had issues as well but seriously.. Look how far stern has come or Did you already forget about NASCAR, monopoly, Austin powers, oh and big buck hunter... what im saying is, in my opinion the games are getting better than what they were. And yes they have had a few issues with playfields "I have one of them". But I honestly believe they will make it right and learn from their mistakes and move on. As far as the pricing goes I agree it is a bit out of control but hey they are not forcing anyone to buy The premium or L.E tables. And the pros are still a ok deal. Oh and even with the ghosting inserts my Ghostbusters premium is an amazing machine!

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cdonnerusmc:

    I've had issues as well but seriously.. Look how far stern has come or Did you already forget about NASCAR, monopoly, Austin powers, oh and big buck hunter... what im saying is, in my opinion the games are getting better than what they were. And yes they have had a few issues with playfields "I have one of them". But I honestly believe they will make it right and learn from their mistakes and move on. As far as the pricing goes I agree it is a bit out of control but hey they are not forcing anyone to buy The premium or L.E tables. And the pros are still a ok deal. Oh and even with the ghosting inserts my Ghostbusters premium is an amazing machine!

    That's the problem though. We stuck it out when they were putting out weak games due to small budgets. We kept them going. Now that things are better, they act like we weren't a factor in keeping them going or in pinball's resurgence. It's unbelievably arrogant.

    Stern still makes the best games, but they also make the worst relationships with customers.

    #9 2 years ago

    Yep they lost me as a customer after they raised prices and made distros sell at a raised price.in January/February. I have since got rid of 2 of my sterns and will probably get rid of the other 2 soon. I can say i dont miss them at all so far as there are way to many better used pins available. I may buy some used down the road but no more nib for me from them.

    #10 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    I've been in this hobby for over a decade, and all that time I have done my best to support Stern Pinball. I have defended the tough decisions they had to make in the down years, and I've tried to stay patient in recent years. I've spent lots of money on their games, but I have purchased my last NIB Stern Pinball machine and official Stern product (mods, accessories, etc.).
    If you want the long story, I wrote an article about it, here: http://gamertheory.com/article.aspx/505/Stern-Pinball-has-turned-its-back-on-the-pinball-hobbyist/
    If you want the tl;dr, I basically feel like Stern Pinball has lost its way and has turned its back on the hobbyists and collectors that kept them alive through their lean years. Quality of components has gone down, quality control has plummeted, but prices are far outpacing inflation. Stern is difficult to communicate with, and they only care about your wallet. Until practices dramatically change, I'm done supporting Stern Pinball in any fashion. These couple of statements from my article about sum it up:
    "Stern's price increases are severely outpacing inflation. Stern's quality control has noticeably slipped over the years, and the ever cheapening of components and process is seeing problems with cabinet decals peeling, playfields chipping, electronic components failing, and mechanical failing or acting in unreliable fashion prematurely. You are paying more for a product that is becoming more problematic. [...] Stern doesn't care about you, they care about how many zeroes they can knock off the end of your bank account statement.
    We want to be customers, not a sketchy salesman's mark. So Stern, you may have kept the lights on in the manufacturing plant, but we were the ones that paid for the electric bill. It's a shame how easily you have forgotten, or worse, try to ignore that fact."

    I'm sorry you feel that way, I have had no issues with my 2 NIB games, Mustang Pro and GB Pro and I think GB Pro only cost me $100 more then the Mustang. I'm also the second owner of a Refinery Met Pro, ST Pro and Avatar LE, those 3 play and look new, except for dimples of course. My only gripe is that the code takes forever to be finished if it ever does that is.

    18
    #11 2 years ago

    You said it best on your podcast, sure I could afford a $4 candy bar, but I would feel like an idiot buying it (something like that)

    I've never been able to afford a NIB during my time in the hobby (adopting two kids is like being held by the ankles and shook upside down) but I had hoped now that things have settled I could start to dream about that day. But the way prices keep creeping, and the more customers keep complaining, and seeing kickstarter for books.... I don't know.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Stern's quality control has noticeably slipped over the years, and the ever cheapening of components and process is seeing problems with cabinet decals peeling, playfields chipping, electronic components failing, and mechanical failing or acting in unreliable fashion prematurely. You are paying more for a product that is becoming more problematic. [...] Stern doesn't care about you, they care about how many zeroes they can knock off the end of your bank

    And then you say...

    Quoted from jar155:

    Stern still makes the best games

    What do you really mean?

    23
    #13 2 years ago

    Stern is putting out good games, I'm still a fan.

    As usual too many people are confusing the hobby for the industry. You don't HAVE to buy brand new $5000-15000 games. If that's what the hobby is to you you are gonna get sour on it eventually.

    Playing pinball is cheap. Owning pinball can still and always will be possible on the cheap if don't mind not owning the newest games. I've never understood that obsession anyway, when the newer games are the easiest ones to find on location.

    It always sucks when people find their hobby is making them miserable or stressing themselves out. Maybe time to just take a break, step back, and see if this is really the hobby for you If it's starting to piss you off.

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jjsmooth:

    And then you say...

    What do you really mean?

    Stern's games are the best playing games. Maybe not the best in quality or the most thoroughly tested, but Stern has the best designers in the business right now.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Playing pinball is cheap. Owning pinball can still and always will be possible if don't mind not owning the newest games I've never understood that obsession anyway, when the newer games are the easiest ones to find on location.

    I don't think we'll see many Batman '66 machines on location. Too expensive to operate.

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Stern's games are the best playing games. Maybe not the best in quality or the most thoroughly tested, but Stern has the best designers in the business right now.

    Beyond a doubt. And this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

    #16 2 years ago

    I get the frustration with NiB prices, but the technical support has been very helpful in fixing issues and sending parts. (Not talking ghosting)

    #17 2 years ago

    That is a shame. The more people we have buying NIB the longer and more enjoyable the hobby will be. If the prices go up too much, people will stop buying and the hobby will die a slow death. Currently the market is supporting the prices.

    You never deal directly with a company but with a company representative. People buy from people so who ever (person) you are dealing with as a customer is not looking after you properly.

    We have playfield issues too and I must admit I was extremely disappointed when I started noticing the playfield coming apart. It is not quite as bad as yours but it is not far off it. I have calmed down and we have reached a good resolution with our distributer.

    #18 2 years ago

    You are right, we don't have to buy $5K NIB games, we can wait to find them used at cheaper prices. Do you think this is what Stern wants to hear? Please the masses and it's better for everyone.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballaddicted:

    If the prices go up too much, people will stop buying and the hobby will die a slow death.

    As Levi said above, and I will reiterate, the hobby isn't going anywhere. Some manufacturers may go out of business, but the hobby will be fine.

    And Jar155, sorry to hear it. Hopefully this all swings back at some point in the future. I don't think the market will support the new pricing model, so at some point it will go back to normal. Until then, just have fun playing pinball. Don't worry about the ups and downs of the other crap. Get together with some friends and enjoy the hobby.

    #20 2 years ago

    Stern just needs to up their game and compete vs the jjp pins. And they can, and soon they need to, when more and more similar topics come up.

    Would be great to have Stern on board at next gen.

    #21 2 years ago

    Stern and JJP are bringing brand new people into the hobby and they are going to try and squeeze out every dollar they can. What I don't think they are planning for is the support issues they are creating. People can't fix them. How this gets handled is going to be interesting to see.

    10
    #22 2 years ago

    Stern lost me over my Kiss machine last November. They didnt care about my decals all screwed up and refused to replace them. I hated looking at the machine as it was I sold it. They have not changed since last year infact they have gotten worse with customer service. Yes they are the biggest manufacturer of machines, but not the best in terms of quality and customer satisfaction. In the end you can buy a lot of great used machines for way less money. I will never go new in box again. Its not worth it. Sorry you share same oppinion. Until they loose enough customers they wont change. Its sad.

    #23 2 years ago

    At what point did they have quality control in their factory?

    my first NIB was Batman (tdk) , the printing on the cabinet decals was misaligned
    since then I have never seen their quality go up
    and it is not as if they are doing anything new, printing has existed for centuries, making playfields has been going on for decades

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from clg:

    Stern and JJP are bringing brand new people into the hobby...

    Those people had better have a lot more money then...

    #25 2 years ago

    Unfortunately, many new collectors will not care, and in the future may not even know some important history.

    Some older collectors have moved on literally or figuratively. Some don't care, others are not willing to share out of disgust. Some, remain hopeful out of resolve or just curiously watching.

    These are very interesting times again.

    Perhaps the Stern Pinball book project will share a few revelations, but the "challenging times" will need to get by the censors, or simply be selectively avoided on who is interviewed. Certainly the remaining old employed designers (game or software) are not going to share "nostaglia" in this area ever again. Some old thoughts can still be found on other forums however, with a bit of research.

    The Stern Vegas dice keep rolling on the craps table.

    #26 2 years ago

    Well you are right. I bought my first NIB a GBLE and the experience is underwhelming. Dealing with the issues right out of the box, the quality and code issues just are not worth it. It made me rethink what I like about the hobby. That is searching games in great condition and getting to know the people. That made me some interesting friends, while my distributor is just one that hands me the box and gets my money. So I quit on NIB. I think Stern makes great pinball machines, they play great, have a great theme, but it is just not worth it to buy it NIB. Maybe I miss out on a theme, maybe I will not be the first to play it, maybe I will have to wait a year or more.

    #27 2 years ago

    I had a similar feeling once. Just like when they brought back taco flavored doritos.

    #28 2 years ago

    Honestly I think the way things are going heighway is the way forward, the fact that the Limited Edition games offer the exact same gameplay as the standard (just minus the cosmetics which can be bought ; not the exclusive artwork) is far better. It means the hobbyists and operators in mind don't have to shell out mega bucks to get the full experience which the designers intend and the quality controll is top notch as well the customer service.

    In my opinion I wish that stern should have just stayed with their original practise, Standard and Le ( where the Le only offers cosmetic difference , nothing that effects gameplay or additional modes and rules) ie spiderman and black spiderman
    That way prices would be far better for us hobbyists and ops and we wouldn't start multiple threads about which is better pro vs le.

    The only downside is Stern pins are god damn expensive here due to import tax and vat:
    Stern Pro (Nov 2016) : £5'795 = $7100.73 ; ST pro nib (Nov 2015) £5000 = $6125.50
    Stern Prem (Nov 2016): £7'695 = $9428.84
    I know that stern prices are going up and up Nib Tron Le was around £5000 , And the pro was £3800 back in 2011 , hell even TWD le was around £6300 and the pros were around £4300.

    Its absurd that what we pay for a nib pro here is the same price as a premium or le in the US

    #29 2 years ago

    Non-dramatic data points...I just traded my GB premium for a sweet AFM. My next machine to arrive is Alien.
    Mind you, that also means that someone else just traded their AFM for my GB, lol. So I guess that cancels out.

    #30 2 years ago

    Life is to long anymore for me to say I am done with almost anything. I have learned to step back and take a breath and just go a different direction. I found giving myself ultimatums about what I will or will not do or buy is counterproductive. So sorry you are so frustrated with pinball by Stern at this time.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballaddicted:

    I have calmed down and we have reached a good resolution with our distributer.

    resolution as in. playfield swap ?

    #32 2 years ago

    Price and play field issues will prevent me from buying any NIB for years.

    I also won't pick up anything made in 2015 on.

    Gary tried to downplay the whole situation by basically saying "some people have said they had play field concerns, but the formula has been the same, blah blah."

    It's a known issue. They won't address it. New stuff still has it. It takes 3 months sometimes to manifest itself.

    No way I'd buy a new Stern. I have 5 older ones and they're all great. (Yes even Wrestlemania )

    22
    #33 2 years ago

    All great points. As much as I want a Ghostbuster's I won't risk buying one when Stern can't be honest with customers and say what the hell is going on with their playfields. Sounds like Gary didn't tell the whole truth at Expo which is just sad.

    Also, like you said Stern's pricing for NIB games is now ridiculous. Prices go up, quality goes down, code support becomes less important. Crazy.

    Stern's new motto is cheaper and faster (but that doesn't equal better). Basically they pump up their game in a PR spin to get you excited and then its on to the next game. Oh, you want substantial code updates for your game? Too bad, its old news.

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    I don't think we'll see many Batman '66 machines on location. Too expensive to operate.

    Come to Boston next year Jeff

    27
    #35 2 years ago

    I wrote a polite letter to Gary Stern last November about my machine and the way customer service did not seem to care about loosing my bussiness. I outlined the issues and sent pictures then explained I have been in the hobby since 1996 and have bought over fifty machines since then and he never cared to respond to my letter. It was very polite and not nasty at all. Just wanted him to know how I was treated and that I was very upset with his support. Its been a year now and still no responce. I will never give them a dime on a new machine. I like stern machines, but they dont deserve my money. And they didnt care about loosing me either. Stern is the Good fellas of pinball. Not happy with our machine, F you pay me. Got any complaints F you pay me. Giot to fix your own new machine? , F you pay me.

    #36 2 years ago

    Love Stern games.

    But the price relative to the QC makes it second hand market only going forward.

    #37 2 years ago

    I consider myself a late comer to this hobby - first pin was ST:TNG when I was around 32, now 42. I am fan of Stern as for the longest time they were the only serious player around still making tables (just kidding, pins :p) ). However, I don't think anyone can argue that in the last 10 years there has been a serious decline in quality and increase in price.

    The majority of my pins are Stern (LOTR, Avatar LE, Tron Pro, ST:Pro) and certainly there are significant changes even among the small lineup I have. Then I look at my ST:TNG or ToM and they are night and day above the recent Sterns. Well, recent sterns without paying top dollar for LE or Super LE or Super LE VE or whatever the hell next versions they roll out.

    I am definitely not *done* with Stern, however, I think I am done with NIB Stern (or any NIB for that matter). I will have to roll back to the HUO used market. At least that will also give time to get code updates, recalls, service bulletins etc. addressed and let the first owner work through those kinks

    mittens

    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from practicalsteve:

    You said it best on your podcast, sure I could afford a $4 candy bar, but I would feel like an idiot buying it (something like that)

    Zingerman's has them for six bucks each. Only $5.99 in stores but you have to add tax.....

    1478017046133-305290459 (resized).jpg

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from mittens:

    I am definitely not *done* with Stern, however, I think I am done with NIB Stern

    I feel the same, it doesn't help that here in the Great White North ur looking min 7500 for a pro and pre/le prices well do the math, luckily for me 90% of the themes from all manufacturers combined fall flat and then another 5% seem just OK so I don't care but if Stern releases a must have then I would suck it up, I will say I would rather buy 1 expensive must have NIB every couple years than many mediocre ones, those I'll wait and pick up used years down the line or play on site. The one good thing is with these price increases I've developed a new found love for buying cheap run down pins and restoring them, I think thats what this hobby is all about.

    20
    #40 2 years ago

    Price and quality aside; it's sterns consistent lack of code development, polish, and updates that puts a sour apple in my mouth.

    Great designs and good rules can only go so far without a commitment to code support.

    #41 2 years ago

    As long as there next cornerstone pro is only 200$ more then ghostbusters and has no ghosting issues I'm still a fan, but time will tell I agree batman is very high priced

    #42 2 years ago

    I would never buy a NIB again and am disenchanted with Stern. I think that we all have to take a step back as collectors and acknowledge that we are partly responsible. Selling LE's and such at higher markups, sometimes when the seller is not even in the possession of the game yet. Establishing the secondary market with people willing to pay higher and higher prices. In a way you cant blame Stern for increasing the prices as this has become somewhat of the market standard. However, you can blame Stern for their quality control and lack of response, code updates etc. I hate to say it but the whole hobby seems to be changing in a way that it may not sustain itself as it has the past 10 or so years.

    #43 2 years ago

    I am also out for the foreseeable future. I bought two NIB pros this year for locations (ST and GB). I was lucky and got an early run GB and have had 0 play field issues, however based on how they handle their known issues, things like redesigning slimer, but refusing to send early adopters the new mech, the play field mess, the joke pricing of BM66, throwing a huge joke of a party and making everyone buy tickets?, then asking everyone to crown fund their coffee table book, just doesnt do it for me. It doesnt really matter though, i am an operator and not their core demographic anymore. I know there isnt really any competition for stern, but i feel they are a snake eating its own tail at this point, but it also seems there is a never ending line of people willing to hand over their money just to have the latest and subjective greatest.

    #44 2 years ago

    I'm still hearing that Stern plans to enter the gaming business and was their main reason for moving to a larger facility.

    21
    #45 2 years ago

    I really enjoy Stern's games... currently have ST, TWD and AC/DC (two bought NIB). Both Mustang and GB are on my "want to own someday" list.

    BUT... I agree with Jeff. Stern has given the middle finger to the majority of collectors/hobbyists. The massive price hikes over the last 2 years aren't linked to slowly rising production costs. As Jeff points out, they far outpace inflation. Then there's the issue of telling distributors they can't sell below a certain price AND mucking around in the mod market. Total BS. Oh, how can we forget the SuperLE and that insulting marketing ploy of a "application process."

    Stern champions itself as the great "protector of pinball," but it's new public persona is "take your medicine and stop complaining."

    Hate it.

    Pile on these recent production issues paired with a very sketchy/grey area acknowledgment of how they plan to make things right, and this whole situation is starting to really stink.

    Doesn't help that we see similar price point pushing from JJP... Heighway's Alien is looking like it's going to cost a chunk (plus...breaking news... early FT adopters have to pay more to get a new CPU).

    What's great is that pinball is still alive and kicking - new games are rolling out. Awesome, right? But what SUCKS is that these company's are trying to make this industry and its products into something I don't think it's capable of being. Very hard to support their behavior... going to be really interesting to watch how these new, incredibly expensive, games wreak havoc on the secondary market.

    #46 2 years ago

    It'll be interesting to see what happens when Stern's next few releases are announced. If I understand correctly, Aerosmith is coming soon then I'm not sure what's next... If the next biggie from them is Star Wars, I bet they'll sell out again and very quickly.

    I'm not terribly thrilled with the prices of NIB and recent manufacturing/QC issues scare me, but I'd probably have to find a way to get certain NIB themes. Stern Star Wars and JJP#3 are at the top for me.

    #47 2 years ago

    Overall company quality should always be at the forefront of any establishment.
    Wouldn't that be all the more so in a limited market such as pinball machines?
    Perhaps Stern considers itself the king of the hill and they see little serious competition.
    Afterall, nobody puts out anywhere near as many machines annually as they do.
    Maybe they have become disproportionately focused on profits.

    Regardless, if they consider themselves the market leader
    they should be doing EVERYTHING in their power to stay there.
    Component quality should NEVER be compromised and customer service should ALWAYS be a top priority.
    Never waver on that!
    What every company wants is to gain a customer.
    Once they have achieved that the goal is to get return business.
    That's what will keep their engine running.
    People are not stupid:
    If they see quality control slipping or are treated poorly-especially after dropping some serious coin- they look elsewhere or stop buying altogether.

    11
    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Stern's games are the best playing games. Maybe not the best in quality or the most thoroughly tested, but Stern has the best designers in the business right now.

    Though my time in the hobby is somewhat limited, I really don't share this sentiment.

    Old BW and new JJP games feel much more smooth than new Sterns, in my view. It seems like without massive tinkering on most of their new machines, you'll suffer an awful lot of bad feeds, balls getting stuck, catching air, rejects, targets not working etc etc. Some of their themes and layouts might be really fun, but Stern feel like the Data East to Bally Williams (or JJP today).

    #49 2 years ago

    I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from rollitover:

    Perhaps Stern considers itself the king of the hill and they see little serious competition.

    Everyone should listen to George Gomez's interview on Coast to Coast Pinball (Episode 221). He's extremely dismissive at the notion of ANY serious competition... and he also outlines what Stern believes to be its target audience (although he claims that their material and processes are of a finer quality due to the heavy collectors/hobbyist slant, which obviously isn't true).

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