(Topic ID: 280926)

It’s not the digital printing!


By Tallon

77 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 29 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 75 days ago by Cantabkiwi
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 77 days ago

So.....maybe someone should have done more then a cursory search about playfields before opening his mouth. I can’t state this emphatically enough. HE IS WRONG!!! Do not listen to his opinion on this. I repeat OPINION! It has been explained repeatedly in multiple threads. It’s a thickness and curing problem with the playfields.

Clearcoat cures from the outside in and if you crack or damage the clear before it’s fully cured, it looses its integrity and can pull the undercoat (the ink) just like when you crack the clear on a car and the paint comes off and the primer still adheres to the metal. The playfields are being rushed and that’s 90% of your problem.

#2 77 days ago

How long does it take for a play field to cure? Approximately.

#3 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

It has been explained repeatedly in multiple threads.

You read some shit on pinside and think it's fact because it's been repeated? LOL.

#4 77 days ago

I've been in the offset printing industry for 30 years. Things started shifting towards digital printing probably 15 years ago in our industry. Digital printing is more cost-effective for the customer, shorter runs such as business cards. However the quality is nowhere near the same and I'm sure the same is true with the digital printing process they are using.

#5 77 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

You read some shit on pinside and think it's fact because it's been repeated? LOL.

So apparently you have never had a car repaired in your life. Ok I’ll explain for the Kannada fanboys. The reason they tell you to not wash or buff your car out after a repair is to make sure you don’t damage the clear while it’s curing. The new solvents don’t allow it to cure as fast so it’s variable on the cure time but a rule of thumb is a month.

Talk to a body shop and ask about clear coat and why they use a bake cycle to force the curing process. Not just read the pinside threads

#6 77 days ago

It's so weird how worked up people get over the opinions of others. You all fired up and all you got to back yourself up is a cargument? Classic pinside, LOL!

#7 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

Clearcoat cures from the outside in and if you crack or damage the clear before it’s fully cured, it looses its integrity and can pull the undercoat (the ink) just like when you crack the clear on a car and the paint comes off and the primer still adheres to the metal. The playfields are being rushed and that’s 90% of your problem.

If you want to have a discussion then back up your assertions with factual sources and good evidence. Make your case.

Someone else babbling without good evidence isn’t presenting a compelling narrative either.

#8 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

So apparently you have never had a car repaired in your life. Ok I’ll explain for the Kannada fanboys. The reason they tell you to not wash or buff your car out after a repair is to make sure you don’t damage the clear while it’s curing. The new solvents don’t allow it to cure as fast so it’s variable on the cure time but a rule of thumb is a month.
Talk to a body shop and ask about clear coat and why they use a bake cycle to force the curing process. Not just read the pinside threads

I'll have to check with my autobody shop to see what kind of Inkjet printer they used to paint my door...... Sorry you are way off on this.

#9 77 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

If you want to have a discussion then back up your assertions with factual sources and good evidence. Make your case.
Someone else babbling without good evidence isn’t presenting a compelling narrative either.

Ok, I’ll play. Adult conversation. Also worked in auto body for a few year and my friend who taught me says the same you can work with it in 24-48 hours but the clear is still soft underneath. Atleast 30 days as to not damage crack or chip the clearcoat. It can be rushed some by adding a bake cycle.

Basic FAQ for auto body work comes up with this. I’ll tag the recommended and best practices advice from the clear manufacturers tonight when I get home

http://carunderstanding.com/how-long-does-clear-coat-take-to-dry/

#10 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

So.....maybe someone should have done more then a cursory search about playfields before opening his mouth. I can’t state this emphatically enough. HE IS WRONG!!!

At the risk of sounding like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know ... Who is "HE"?

#11 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

Ok, I’ll play. Adult conversation. Also worked in auto body for a few year and my friend who taught me says the same you can work with it in 24-48 hours but the clear is still soft underneath. Atleast 30 days as to not damage crack or chip the clearcoat. It can be rushed some by adding a bake cycle.
Basic FAQ for auto body work comes up with this. I’ll tag the recommended and best practices advice from the clear manufacturers tonight when I get home
http://carunderstanding.com/how-long-does-clear-coat-take-to-dry/

How many Wooden cars have you painted? Do you paint them with an Inkjet printer? And why the hell does this auto BS have anything to do with pinball??

#12 77 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

And why the hell does this auto BS have anything to do with pinball??

I'm guessing the commonality is the 2PAC?

Having JUST had auto body repairs thanks to the Bambi I took out, I was advised wait 90 days before using a mechanical car wash. Had another car fixed at a different shop earlier this year, they too stated to wait 90 days before using an automated type car way.
Wifes car last year from granny playing on her phone, and THAT shop also advised to wait 90 days before using a car wash facility.
But like was said, NONE of them painted any wooden vehicles that get pounded with a steel ball over and over again. Still wondering why we have to go through this age old question again.

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#13 77 days ago

This thread is so stupid. I'm really enjoying it.

#14 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

So apparently you have never had a car repaired in your life...

If this is going down the cargument route just state it in the first post so we can all stop fucking listening.

#15 77 days ago

I see something about wooden cars and 2pac. This is straight up hilarious! No I'm smarter, and my wife's fatter.

#16 77 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

How many Wooden cars have you painted? Do you paint them with an Inkjet printer? And why the hell does this auto BS have anything to do with pinball??

Because they are using a version is automotive clear and the characteristics of the plastic body panels is pretty close to characteristics is the wood and is the same as the insert plastics.

Instead of defending someone’s opinion that you like try listening to people who have done some work in the medium described. I’ve seen a lot of bodywork brought to our shop to fix the poor job done by someone else.

I’m not arguing there isn’t a problem, I’m saying the problem isn’t what one mans opinion, OPINION says it is

#17 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

Because they are using a version is automotive clear and the characteristics of the plastic body panels is pretty close to characteristics is the wood and is the same as the insert plastics.
Instead of defending someone’s opinion that you like try listening to people who have done some work in the medium described. I’ve seen a lot of bodywork brought to our shop to fix the poor job done by someone else.
I’m not arguing there isn’t a problem, I’m saying the problem isn’t what one mans opinion, OPINION says it is

Medium and ink aside, there is merit to the idea that the clear is not being given appropriate time to cure. During the cure, solvents are dissipating and this is generally the smell. There are a few things to note, modern clears tend to have a longer cure time than those 20-30 years ago. The longer cure time coupled with the increased thickness of clear coats, certainly lends to the idea that these things are simply not given enough time to cure.

As far as the ink goes, direct to substrate requires a primer coat and then printing above that. I don't know what the desired finish of the playfield is, but I would venture a guess it needs to be smoother than it needs to be for screening. Less bite for colors and clear may also contribute to this issue.

I'm not going to bash either side of the argument here. I do think this is a complex and possibly compound issue that manufacturers should be paying a lot more attention to. we can speculate, but they should test, evaluate, and innovate.

#18 77 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

Because they are using a version is automotive clear and the characteristics of the plastic body panels is pretty close to characteristics is the wood and is the same as the insert plastics.

Really

#19 76 days ago

Listened to Kaneda about Mirco Playfields. His theory about uv inkjet printing is wrong. My best guess is that the playfields are not being allowed to cure properly over time. The biggest thing I have said for about 12 years is you do not finish clear coats until there is no evident ink smell! Also maybe not enough sealer coat is being done before inking the playfields. CPR & Mirco have switched to uv inkjet production. It still is not 100% bullet proof for production contrary to what is said. Also there are all kinds of variables in playfield production. Which I find interesting being in the smallest group of playfield manufacturers.

#20 76 days ago

Pretty sure that there would be more than 30 days between the clearcoat being applied and people seeing “pooling” after 200 games. Remember some of these new games have build dates from last year (G’nR).

The clear is well attached to the ink, otherwise it would look like ghosting. The ink is being lifted from the wood. I bet the ink is one big decal.

#21 76 days ago

Never mind.

#22 76 days ago
Quoted from Tallon:

Clearcoat cures from the outside in and if you crack or damage the clear before it’s fully cured, it looses its integrity and can pull the undercoat (the ink) just like when you crack the clear on a car and the paint comes off and the primer still adheres to the metal.

You’re saying the clear hasn’t cured fully and has lost its integrity from the damage... yet it has the strength to pull the color (which you say is not the problem) cleanly off the primer?

Given we’re doing carguments:

I had a bonnet (hood) re-sprayed after a collision. A week later I was unlucky enough to get a large stone chip. Bad luck for me... except when it just kept flaking further and further along the panel and pulling more colour off I called the body shop to get their opinion on it. After they inspected it they acknowledged that something had gone wrong with their process or products and they re-sprayed it at no cost to me and it was perfect after that.

I’d expect the same admission and fix from a pinball company as it’s fundamentally the same problem.

#23 76 days ago

Right

#24 76 days ago

Most automotive clears take around 90 days to fully cure.

#25 76 days ago

OP, what is your experience with painting and clearing playfields? You have strong a strong opinion, so hopefully you have inside knowledge or experience with building playfields.

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#26 76 days ago

Bare with me here.
I actually know quite a bit about both automotive clearcoats and pinball/playfields.
The truth about all this debate is really simple.
No one really knows why this is happening to these newer playfields.
You can guess and if you are well educated on both you can make an educated guess but what is really needed here is this.
When chemical manufacturers test products they are going to release they have chemist or scientists in a lab that analyze these products and the failure points as well as the suitability of products for the intended purpose.
Through those studies and experiments they gather data on the formulations ,problems that arise and ways to solve them.
This is what seems to be lacking here.

A good scientific study would definitely uncover the issue and help solve it. Anything less is just guessing educated or otherwise.
Is it the ink adhering to the wood?
Is it the clear not curing long enough?
Is it the clear itself?
Maybe the digital printing?
Give it to the right lab for analysis and we can find out.
Nothing crazy or far fetched about the idea. It is typical in most manufacturing or chemical compound settings
Pinball manufacturers might have to adapt for a short time to hone in on the best products and protocols to use moving forward to avoid these problems.

#27 76 days ago

I have a new Stern game. It has all these little bumps that look like dimples on a golf ball. Is that normal or is it a sign my clear coat is failing ?

#28 76 days ago

Let’s stop and think about a few things here.

The clear is obviously soft and the posts and even washers are sinking into it creating a pooling effect.

Once pooling starts, posts get hit and tweaking the clear coat that has gathered around the post.

The clear then is tweaking upwards to pull away from play field removing not only the paint/artwork, but in some cases the wood itself has chipped off.

Paint wouldn’t pull and crack wood, but a thick clear coat would. While no doubt a screen print is better, the clear coat allowing posts and washers to sink in are an obvious starting point leading to further damage.

#29 76 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

I have a new Stern game. It has all these little bumps that look like dimples on a golf ball. Is that normal or is it a sign my clear coat is failing ?

I dunno but my American Pinball machine's playfields are not looking like a golf ball. This should add to the fun.
Also " . . .Listened to Kaneda about Mirco Playfields. His theory about uv inkjet . . ." I'm in agreement with you. I'm sure he is a real expert in clear coat and playfield printing.
Again the American playfields by Baden(?) are printed as well and have no problems, so much for his "theory". Any one see the Mirco Houdini playfields for sale on pinside? There is a reason for that.
It appears that the OP is calling out the bullshit of someone who is nothing more than a talking head that has no expertise in the field of playfields vs the OP who apparently has at least some experience.

#30 76 days ago
Quoted from fattdirk:

I have a new Stern game. It has all these little bumps that look like dimples on a golf ball. Is that normal or is it a sign my clear coat is failing ?

Well, if you look at the clearcoat on golf balls, you'll see that it is very thin, not thick, like Stern's. Think about it. How many times might that ball get schwacked with a club? Even Tiger can hit that ball with ZERO clearcoat damage. Gary should be calling up Titleist for their secrets.

#31 76 days ago
Quoted from Swainer80:

I dunno but my American Pinball machine's playfields are not looking like a golf ball. This should add to the fun.
Also " . . .Listened to Kaneda about Mirco Playfields. His theory about uv inkjet . . ." I'm in agreement with you. I'm sure he is a real expert in clear coat and playfield printing.
Again the American playfields by Baden(?) are printed as well and have no problems, so much for his "theory". Any one see the Mirco Houdini playfields for sale on pinside? There is a reason for that.

My Houdini (~2 yrs. old) PF is a Mirco and is in really great shape. AP used both Baden and Mirco initially.

#32 76 days ago

In the print game.....seen a lot over my 25+years. Been involved in offset, digital, screen printing etc etc

There are other factors that come into play....

The factory ideally needs to be warm and have a correct constant temperature when printing.

Certain inks need to go down on a primer. Most places skip using/printing the primer as it is expensive.

The clear coat should not be applied straight away. One needs to run a test in a ink lab to ensure the print inks and the varnish is compatible.

Inks release chemicals. A lot of newer vegetable/soy inks are designed to break down. Using UV or latex based inks is a whole different ball game again.
One needs to check and understand the correct purpose off the end product to make sure correct ink is picked and used.

#34 76 days ago

Golfballs, pinball playfields, cars, inks, printing technology... everyone knows it’s all the same shit. I swear Pinside has turned into a shitshow since March. Why are you all wasting your time lamenting and arguing over all this nonsense?

Maybe if you focused all these nerd pinball efforts on something that matters, you wouldn’t be so miserable.

#35 76 days ago

Blame what.....Could be it be COVID???

Oh wait, we don’t have it here in New Zealand.

Off to play TNA

#36 76 days ago

My Car is covered in bird shit.

Message from the Freeeek Kingdom.

the-bad-news-bears (resized).jpg
#37 76 days ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Maybe if you focused all these nerd pinball efforts on something that matters, you wouldn’t be so miserable.

But but but ... pinball is our life.

#38 76 days ago

This is vaguely related.

I'm a 10+ year screen printer but I've only done apparel printing. Our inks and 35' conveyor dryer are very impacted by weather/humidity. Luckily our tshirts don't cost as much as a nice used car.

I don't know shit about clear coats.

What really frustrates me is my MMR playfield looks like glass and my MBR playfield looks like the surface of the moon. Both bought NIB but the MMR was bought late run and the MBR was bought early run.

#39 76 days ago
Quoted from Cantabkiwi:

In the print game.....seen a lot over my 25+years. Been involved in offset, digital, screen printing etc etc

I'm a huge fan of George FM and a friend sent me one of their shirts around 7 years ago, did you print it? Blue shirt with white George logo. I've seen a few million shirts in my day and it was one of the best white prints I've EVER seen. We tune in when we print at our shop, the breakfast show airs in the afternoon here, it's great.

#40 76 days ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Listened to Kaneda about Mirco Playfields. His theory about uv inkjet printing is wrong. My best guess is that the playfields are not being allowed to cure properly over time. The biggest thing I have said for about 12 years is you do not finish clear coats until there is no evident ink smell! Also maybe not enough sealer coat is being done before inking the playfields. CPR & Mirco have switched to uv inkjet production. It still is not 100% bullet proof for production contrary to what is said. Also there are all kinds of variables in playfield production. Which I find interesting being in the smallest group of playfield manufacturers.

An epoxi garage floor, where you park cars with studders will fully cure in a week.
So, why wouldnt a pinball playfield?
I think there's another coat for the playfields, since thoose needs to be sprayed on, with tubes and nozzles. This puts higher demand and cost on the coating, they probably also needs to be mixed perfectly.

To low quality on the product and/or not exact mixing makes for a coating that will not hardenever. It doesnt matter if you wait months or even the time it takes for the playfield to travel around the world.

So, why and if does it help having no print around the posts?
It really shouldn't, but if the print releases some chemicals that interact with the clear it could?

#41 75 days ago
Quoted from LoganJK:

I'm a huge fan of George FM and a friend sent me one of their shirts around 7 years ago, did you print it? Blue shirt with white George logo. I've seen a few million shirts in my day and it was one of the best white prints I've EVER seen. We tune in when we print at our shop, the breakfast show airs in the afternoon here, it's great.

George FM is amazing station to pass the time. The DJ s have regular weekly gigs....they know how to lay it down.

Know that t-shirt, it was my work dress shirt for awhile

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