(Topic ID: 153351)

It wasn't broke so I tried to fix it!


By bronco-jon

3 years ago



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  • 43 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by bronco-jon
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I so screwed up! Took my first em pin, 1972 2-player Gottlieb Wild Life that was completely working other than the player 2 lights on the back box sometimes didn't light up when player two was up for play and some slight buzzing from coils. I decided to open it up and inspect/clean switch points, disk assemblies etc.
Now, when pushing the start button to play, just the score motor turns three or so times and stops. the score doesn't reset, tilt light is on, no ball to play, nothing......I can manually push a couple coil relays and get it to play just fine but does not reset score and stays on ball one when ball drains. it scores but that's it.
what went wrong?

#2 3 years ago

"If it aint broke, don't fix it"

#3 3 years ago

You screwed up the gaps in some of the switch points. Unscrew it up.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#4 3 years ago

Game goes into "Tilt". No playfield lights or functions?

#5 3 years ago

Jon,

I feel your pain, oh how I feel your pain!! Wish I could assist further.

Good Luck,

G

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

Game goes into "Tilt". No playfield lights or functions?

Yes, the tilt light is on when machine is turned on, it has playfield lights and they flash when hitting start button, just the score motor will turn a few times and thats it......unless I manually trigger one of relays then tilt light goes out and it gives ball to play, does not reset score and stays on ball one. it scores when playing just won't go to ball two after one drains.....game never gos to "game over"

#7 3 years ago

Check all the tilts, slam / cheat switch?

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from presqueisle:

Check all the tilts, slam / cheat switch?

I have ordered a Wild Life Operators manual from Marco's, should get it monday, maybe that will help?

#9 3 years ago

The slam switch under the playfield is supposed to be open with a large gap. There is another one in the backbox, (I think that one is supposed to be closed) and on the coin door. Also check that the tilt mech by the left flipper button in the cabinet is not closed.

#10 3 years ago

Just go back and inspect the switches and relays you adjusted previously... It's just an incomplete game start circuit and you need to find the one or more contact points that are out of adjustment or dirty... Do you have a schematic for the game?

#11 3 years ago

Reseat your Jones plugs

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Just go back and inspect the switches and relays you adjusted previously... It's just an incomplete game start circuit and you need to find the one or more contact points that are out of adjustment or dirty... Do you have a schematic for the game?

yes i have schematics. I'l look at it closer when I get home.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from way2wyrd:

Reseat your Jones plugs

Yes, I did that too

#14 3 years ago

I dunno... but been there myself. Sick feeling isn't it.

#15 3 years ago

If I were nearby, I'd come over and fix it for you for a nominal fee and/or a couple of beers! Unfortunately, I am not.
Seriously though, you should simply go back and retrace your steps and what you did. You probably installed a wiper disc out of time. Maybe on the player unit.

#16 3 years ago

Oh don't beat yourself up too bad....we've all been there!
start reading here and go from there:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

Jon,
I feel your pain, oh how I feel your pain!! Wish I could assist further.
Good Luck,
G

+1

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

If I were nearby, I'd come over and fix it for you for a nominal fee and/or a couple of beers! Unfortunately, I am not.
Seriously though, you should simply go back and retrace your steps and what you did. You probably installed a wiper disc out of time. Maybe on the player unit.

Wish you were nearby too, because I would take you up on that....I didn't disassemble anything as far as disks or reels, or anything for that matter, that's why I know it's some simple fix for somebody who knows what they are doing. I did manually rotate disks/reels to clean up contacts etc. but took nothing apart. I like to drink beer myself, and I am sure that is why I can't "retrace the steps of what I did".....I can however manually "make" the coil on the player unit and get it to play just fine, just won't advance to next ball and game never ends.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from jodini:

Oh don't beat yourself up too bad....we've all been there!
start reading here and go from there:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/

Very good info there jodini....I saved it all to my computer. Think I need some sleep, cause I have a headache now after reading some of it, but looks like very helpful info that might help me

#20 3 years ago

You'll need to find the faulty switches with a schematic... Just start from the beginning: Close up the machine and turn off the power. Turn on the power again, and the machine should be ready to play - lights turned on at the playfield/backglass, or some lights on in the backglass with tilt light on... Either the machine is set on free play, or you can add credits to the credit unit by turning the credit wheel. Push the start button... and then what happens???... This will give us the first step in troubleshooting the problem...

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

You'll need to find the faulty switches with a schematic... Just start from the beginning: Close up the machine and turn off the power. Turn on the power again, and the machine should be ready to play - lights turned on at the playfield/backglass, or some lights on in the backglass with tilt light on... Either the machine is set on free play, or you can add credits to the credit unit by turning the credit wheel. Push the start button... and then what happens???... This will give us the first step in troubleshooting the problem...

Ok, I closed up machine with power off, I turned it back on, backbox lights up with tilt light on but no playfield lights (set up for free play because I use to have to just hit start button to play), I push the start button and the score motor turns about two or three times but it does nothing....no score reset, no ball to play, stays the same. .....I can manually "make" the Player Unit in the backbox to another position and get it to play, but not like it should

#22 3 years ago

First step, check the fuses. The three on the inside of the cabinet seem to be good based on what you described, but check the one(s) under the playfield which are used to protect the trip bank reset coils.

#23 3 years ago

It sounds like you disturbed something while "shopping" it. It is easy to knock a relay out of alignment. I would visually inspect every relay in the cabinet and backbox for proper position and travel. Also check the wires where they attach at the relays. They can short very easily. I have run across bent tabs, solder blobs, worn through insulation, etc.

#24 3 years ago

You have an incomplete reset circuit... Check your schematic. You'll need to check the score motor circuit. Start from the 25 volt side of the transformer and work your way through the switches till you get to the score motor. I don't have access to a schematic for Wild Life, so I'm working off a King Kool schematic... Check the following relays:

Relays D, J, O, Q, S, U, SB, U, P

Confirm on your Wild Life schematic regarding switches and relays in the score motor circuit.

Like jrpinball said, check the two 5 amp slo-blo fuses that protect the Sequence Bank Reset, Control Bank Reset and/or Trip Bank Reset coils.

There are some score motor switches in the score motor circuit also, but I don't think you adjusted any of those switches previously. At this point you don't have to check all of those switches/relays. For now, just check the switches/relays that you "previously" adjusted and cleaned...

#25 3 years ago

Hi bronco-jon
I would not concentrate on "where did I do what - and (re)check every place" --- I wold say "I bought a non-running pin - can I fix it ?".

In post-1 You write: "I push the Start-button, the ONLY thing happening is: The Score-Motor turns about 2 to 3 times --- NOTHING else". This cannot be true - The Strat-Button does NOT directly start the Score-Motor - most likely the "S-Start-Relay" is actuated - and by a closing switch (on s-Relay" -> Score-Motor starts and make turns. Question: "A TURN" ? "A REVOLUTION" ?
My definition (I am German speaking) - I hope its everybodys definition: The Turntable on Gottlieb Score-Motors is divided by/into (?) THREE. (For me) ONE TURN is "turning 120 degrees" of the turntable - therefore 1/3 revolution.
So does Your score-Motor turn 2-3 revolutions - or 2/3 to 1 revolution ?

It is a Gottlieb Pin - the travel of the Switch-Blades on the relays is short - it is a small gap (when a switch is open) - You must have a good look. The anchor-plate of a relay MUST sit in proper place.

The very first relay to investigate (to me) is the S-Start-Relay.
(Have some points on the score-Reels - to see if the pin does reset the Score-Reels) - does the S-Start-Relay actuate when You push the Start-Button ? If NOT: What happens when You actuate the armature (anchor plate) by hand ? (I would use a wooden stick - a ruler from school is fine - I would NOT use a screwdriver, reason: Safety reason, insulated wooden stick ...)

I look in the schema of my Orbit -> the S-Relay has many switches - it actuates (should actuate) the Z1-, Z2-, Z3- 1,2,3,3 Player-RESET-Relays, the SB-Reset-Control-Relay ...
So have a close look at the S-Relay and the switches, blades mounted - does the plate sits good, returning spring mounted - blades straight or bent, wires soldered-on (bent in the solder-lug-side) ?

Question for "mabe in the future needed": Is there a stripe of paper with text - telling us "from left to right - the relays in the huge Relay Bank are (example) some relay, 2nd Player-Relay, 3rd-, 4th-Pl-Relay, 1st ball relay, Game-Over-Relay etc."
(((Working on Gottliebs - sometimes it helps - before starting a new game: Manually reset the Relay Bank -> the let drop the 1st ball relay, let drop Last ball relay and the Game-Over-Relay)))
Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The Relay-Bank: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1332&picno=26197 - to the left, above the chimes.
P.P.S.: Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1332&picno=26198 -> almost on top - way to the right -> the socalled "Through-Switch" - when a new ball is kicked over to the shooting alley -> the ball rolls over thes switch -> switch does close -> ACTUATES THE P-ADD-PLAYER-UNIT-RELAY -> in the Backbox -> next player or next ball...

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi bronco-jon
I would not concentrate on "where did I do what - and (re)check every place" --- I wold say "I bought a non-running pin - can I fix it ?".
In post-1 You write: "I push the Start-button, the ONLY thing happening is: The Score-Motor turns about 2 to 3 times --- NOTHING else". This cannot be true - The Strat-Button does NOT directly start the Score-Motor - most likely the "S-Start-Relay" is actuated - and by a closing switch (on s-Relay" -> Score-Motor starts and make turns. Question: "A TURN" ? "A REVOLUTION" ?
My definition (I am German speaking) - I hope its everybodys definition: The Turntable on Gottlieb Score-Motors is divided by/into (?) THREE. (For me) ONE TURN is "turning 120 degrees" of the turntable - therefore 1/3 revolution.

yes, when pushing start button, "S" relay & "V" relay is activated and the score motor turns (1/3 turn....I was going by "clicks")
....it acts like the "H" relay is trying to activate too because I can barley touch the -plastic points guild on relay and it will pull in and stay, like it's weak or not enough voltage to coil?
...I did get the Installation Procedures and Game Operation Instructions in the mail yesterday (was in mailbox today).
Here is a list of relays on my schematics and other info that may help me too when I get a chance to go over it more closely.

You EM guys are way more willing to help then the SS guys. I really appreciate you guys help

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#27 3 years ago

Hi bronco-jon
I live in Switzerland (south of Germany) - it is 23:30 - getting to midnight, time to go to sleep.
Thanks for the pictures. Did you try "manually closing the "Through-Switch" ? Checked the S-Start-Relay and its switches ?
I'll be in +/- 14 hours - Greetings Rolf

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi bronco-jon
I live in Switzerland (south of Germany) - it is 23:30 - getting to midnight, time to go to sleep.
Thanks for the pictures. Did you try "manually closing the "Through-Switch" ? Checked the S-Start-Relay and its switches ?
I'll be in +/- 14 hours - Greetings Rolf

I was just looking over things and found this loose wire I must of broke off while cleaning it...looks like two wires from the same place going to the same terminal? I slid the cloth insulation off and can't get it to slid back on

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#29 3 years ago
Quoted from bronco-jon:

I slid the cloth insulation off and can't get it to slid back on

That insulation is not critical, that broken off wire needs to be soldered that connection on that contact follower. The circuit is now open.

#30 3 years ago

I just soldered it back on....nothing different

#31 3 years ago

Sometimes when you clean and adjust a switch, it still won't have continuity. You would have to check the switch with a multi-meter to confirm its continuity... You're going to have to use the schematic to check all the switches in the score motor circuit. Let us know if you need help reading the schematic...

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

Sometimes when you clean and adjust a switch, it still won't have continuity. You would have to check the switch with a multi-meter to confirm its continuity... You're going to have to use the schematic to check all the switches in the score motor circuit. Let us know if you need help reading the schematic...

I will do that. I pretty much know what the symbols on the schematics mean (normally open, normally closed etc.) To be honest, schematics are a bit confusing to me, I much prefer reading wiring diagrams over a schematic any day, but I could just imagine a diagram of this would look like a spaghetti nightmare.
...Below is a pic from the manual, I didn't take the Player Unit apart so I shouldn't have to worry about the cams not being lined up should I? Or should I do that to make sure all contacts are clean and making good contact? I just cleaned the contacts on the outside I could get too

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#33 3 years ago

If it worked before, then do not take apart the stepper unit. Do not attempt to disassemble the score motor!

#34 3 years ago

Found problem!, I feel really dumb for missing such an easy fix! the problem was on the score motor, I must have done that when I lifted the score motor assembly to inspect points (the hair/cotter pin wasn't there so it just lifted right up) The points on 2B switch? was stuck open because they got stuck on top of the metal bracket that the points are in between and could not close when the slot in the disk came around. I posted pics to show what I am talking about. I want to thank all you for your help! It's good to know you have a place to turn when you need help! Jon

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#35 3 years ago

Good catch.

Those switch dogs can also be bumped to that position when the top plate of the motor is not wiped clean carefully.
Now is there any other problems?

#36 3 years ago

Yep. It's usually something simple.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

Good catch.
Those switch dogs can also be bumped to that position when the top plate of the motor is not wiped clean carefully.
Now is there any other problems?

I didn't think there were any other problems, the game actually seemed to be much more "crisp" playing, the bells seemed faster, the score reels seems much faster, the slingshots seemed stronger, the coil buzzing is much more quiet, I think the flippers should be more stronger though. However, there still is something wrong that didn't happen before I cleaned some of the points and contacts. It happened twice out of three games I played. During ball in play all of a sudden it quits scoring, the bells stop ringing, the targets don't score or ring, the spinner doesn't either, the slingshots seem weaker, the flippers do stay working, all the playfield lights stays on and when the ball drains, everything gos back to normal and plays just fine...this happened twice in three games. ????

#38 3 years ago

Playfield power runs through the tilt and game over relays. Clean and adjust the switches on those two relays. Tighten the screws on the switch stacks before making adjustments to them. The switch stack screws are often loose due to shrinkage of the fiber insulating spacers in the switch stack. That isn't good. I go through all of them anytime I first pop the hood on a game.

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Playfield power runs through the tilt and game over relays. Clean and adjust the switches on those two relays. Tighten the screws on the switch stacks before making adjustments to them. The switch stack screws are often loose due to shrinkage of the fiber insulating spacers in the switch stack. That isn't good. I go through all of them anytime I first pop the hood on a game.

I tightened most of the switch stack screws (a lot were found to be loose) but did not try cleaning or adjusting any. I have since played four games and have not had the issue happen again. Thanks jrpinball

#40 3 years ago

Glad you seemed to have solved your first problem. Go through Clay's guide and clean/adjust/tighten the relays. Rebuild the flippers and get new eos switches for them. Once you do this, your game will be trouble-free for a long time.

#41 3 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

Glad you seemed to have solved your first problem. Go through Clay's guide and clean/adjust/tighten the relays. Rebuild the flippers and get new eos switches for them. Once you do this, your game will be trouble-free for a long time.

I found lots and lots of great info on EM's from him (thanks jodini) I will do that on the relays. I also ran across a section where he describes upgrading the flipper coils that Steve Young game up with for EM's. have you or do you know someone who has done this upgrade and what they think about it? I'm not happy with the flipper strength I have now... or is that just a em thing?

#42 3 years ago

I would first replace the flipper EOS switches and see if that makes the flippers perform better. If you're still not satisfied with the performance, then you might want to do a flipper rebuild. If the flippers are working properly, I think the stock style coils (solenoids) with 3" flippers work fine on Gottlieb games.

Pinball Resource sells stock coils, medium strength coils and hot rod coils for flippers. I restored a Gottlieb Wedgehead game with 2" flippers for a friend. He wanted more power from the flippers, so I installed those hot rod coils. I thought those coils were way too powerful for the game, but my friend said they were great... If you do decide to go with a more powerful flipper coil, I would try the medium strength coils first to see how they feel...

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from fredsmythson:

I would first replace the flipper EOS switches and see if that makes the flippers perform better. If you're still not satisfied with the performance, then you might want to do a flipper rebuild. If the flippers are working properly, I think the stock style coils (solenoids) with 3" flippers work fine on Gottlieb games.
Pinball Resource sells stock coils, medium strength coils and hot rod coils for flippers. I restored a Gottlieb Wedgehead game with 2" flippers for a friend. He wanted more power from the flippers, so I installed those hot rod coils. I thought those coils were way too powerful for the game, but my friend said they were great... If you do decide to go with a more powerful flipper coil, I would try the medium strength coils first to see how they feel...

That's a set of points I didn't clean, so I popped the hood (I like that jrpinball) and took some 400 grit wet/dry sand paper to them but didn't seem to make any difference. I had planned on ordering a flipper rebuild kit for it anyway but panicked when it wouldn't work after I was under the playfield messing around and put a order in for a manual. I did however order a rubber ring kit for it too, I just wasn't thinking about the weak flippers at the time. Think I will go with the medium coil.

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