(Topic ID: 291468)

It's Time to Talk About CGC / Remake Flippers

By CrazyLevi

2 years ago


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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider mr_tantrum.
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#11 2 years ago

I think there will always be a place for both. I’ve only been into pinball for about 5 to 6 years now. I went to TPF for three consecutive years before it was cancelled these last two, and I found myself each time playing more AFM by far than any other game each time. I love this pin, but it was just out of reach for me at the time. When the remakes came out they had them at TPF and I played them like crazy too. It was the same theme in every way, but the feel was indeed different.

When the time came when I could afford to buy one, I sincerely struggled over finding a good condition original or a pre-owned LE. For a multitude of reasons, even though I was strongly leaning towards an original, I went with the LE remake.

I love this pin, and don’t know if I would ever sell it. Then again, I’m new to pinball so I don’t have the nostalgia that comes with having experience with the original. Also, I will never be a tournament player, so having mastered the feel for the original setup is not an issue with me either.

I think as long as you approach the topic from the perspective that the remake is not intended to be a replacement to the original, but that it opens the opportunity for a few thousand others to experience the fun of owning the title with many of the modern advancements, then it is hard to go wrong either way based on what you prefer.

#111 2 years ago

I own a Getaway (fully rebuilt flippers), AFMr LE, and Stern JP Prem. They all feel different when it comes to the flipper action, and I have to adjust from one to the other when playing. The Getaway (1992 Williams) seems to have the longest flipper throw IMO, and makes it fairly simple to catch the ball while also making all of the shots and even some good backhand flips.

After reading every post in this thread, I'm still interested to know what the original AFM flipper throw is (newly rebuilt would probably be the best option for comparison purposes). It would be nice if someone could show some good overhead pics with flippers aligned at rest and when fully extended so that those of us with AFMr pins who don't have access to originals can make similar adjustments. I understand that feel will still not be the same, but at least it should result in similar shot making capabilities.

#130 2 years ago

I'll ask again and as others have requested, can an original AFM owner please post top down perspective photographs of the flippers at rest and fully extended. This way us remake owners can compare the amount of throw and if there is indeed any difference (would be even better if they could lay a protractor underneath to show the angles. Both at rest and fully extended flipper pics are required because different people start with different alignments.

#133 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It seems pointless, doesn't it? THere are those here who will just claim the original AFM's mechs are "totally flogged."
Anybody who has been around WPC games for 30 years knows the remakes ship with way too shallow flipper strokes.

Just to be clear, I'm not assuming that just because the throws are equal that the flippers will suddenly feel like originals. My point is that I'd like to adjust mine to be same/similar to the original so that the shot making is as similar as it can be.

I also concur that feel is variable from one pin to the next even if it is the same title. I own a Getaway, and would like to think it is in the top 5-10% from a quality perspective given all that I've done to it both mechanically and aesthetically. Every time I go to TPF, there are at least 4 to 5 Getaway pins there and not only do none of them feel like they flip as good as mine, but none of them feel exactly like each other.

#140 2 years ago

And here is the throw on the remake - LE with a couple of hundred plays (I think my left flipper may be slightly lower than the right at rest (not intentional).

IMG_5797 (resized).JPGIMG_5797 (resized).JPGIMG_5798 (resized).JPGIMG_5798 (resized).JPG
#143 2 years ago

No, it is not the nude version of the playfield (that would have been a deal killer for me when I bought it), but I do have that area illuminated with UV lighting to react to my Titan GITD rings, and I also have Pinstadium lighting (set to a cool white color). You can also see that I've replaced the red star posts with florescent green and illuminated them.
1 (resized).jpg1 (resized).jpg

Here is a photo before Pinstadium lighting and other mods where iPhone 5 captured the orange a little better, but still not accurate.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#147 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Mr_Tantrum your "at rest" flipper position is pretty low. Normally the flippers should be aligned with the inlane, while yours are drooping downward.
This will have the result of making the extended position lower than normal as well. Though the total angle travelled should be the same.
If we can get a good sampling of pictures, we should be able to measure the travel angle and see if the remakes match the originals.
Here are my pics of my MBr. Sorry about the glare, but I still think they are useful.[quoted image][quoted image]

The bats are aligned using the toothpick in the holes method (toothpick inside of rubber touching lower side plastic part of bat), and AFMr is designed to have a slight droop.

If anything, I think my right flipper is a little on the high side and needs to be adjusted down a mm or two to be properly aligned to the guide hole.

#148 2 years ago
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:

Maybe it's the camera, but that doesn't look orange to me. When I was undecided between original or remake the nude would have been a deal breaker for me as well

The nude is quite obvious when you see it (which my playfield is not), but you are right in that my iPhone 5 camera is definitely washing out the orange coloring.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#164 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

the last AFMr that I played on location had the flippers drooping so much that it was hard to even hit the center saucer. I just assumed that somebody had screwed up - but maybe it wasn't as far off as I had thought.

The flippers ship in many occasion way too drooped (not sure why). I played an AFMr like this on location, and it was no fun at all - virtually unplayable. Very frustrating, but the pin tech wasn't in, so I couldn't get them to change it.

15
#200 2 years ago

In an effort to bring some objectivity to the conversation, I took the time to print a protractor and measure the throw of the flippers on my AFMr LE. What I discovered is that the throw from rest to fully extended when pressing the flipper button is 50 degrees (both left and right) dead-on balls accurate (to quote Mona Lisa from My Cousin Vinny).

However, I couldn't stop there as my curiosity was getting the best of me. Expecting the throw to be wider, I then measured both flippers on my Getaway (1992 Williams) which have been completely rebuilt, but was at least 2-3 years ago. To my surprise, the throw was also 50 degrees dead-on balls accurate for both left and right flippers.

Knowing that my new Stern JP Prem had to be different (since the feel is so different), I decided to measure the throw of it's flippers. You know what? It too was 50 degrees of throw dead-on balls accurate for both flippers.

Now, the only thing left is for someone with an original AFM (ideally someone who has rebuilt flippers fairly recently and someone who has not done so in years, if ever) to see what throw angles they measure. My assumption is that the AFM original flippers when new and rebuilt will also have 50 degrees of throw. If so, this should at least take the degrees of flipper throw out of the conversation.

FYI, a quarter circle is cut out of the corner of the protractor at the intersection of 0 and 90 degrees which rests against the flipper's shaft when taking measurements.

Left flipper at rest
IMG_5806 (resized).JPGIMG_5806 (resized).JPG

Left flipper fully extended (flipper button pressed)
IMG_5807 (resized).JPGIMG_5807 (resized).JPG

Right flipper at rest
IMG_5804 (resized).JPGIMG_5804 (resized).JPG

Right flipper fully extended (flipper button pressed)
IMG_5805 (resized).JPGIMG_5805 (resized).JPG

#230 2 years ago

I know it has been asked ad nauseum, but we are still awaiting some (at least one to get things started) to post physical measurements/photos of flipper throw on the original AFM. I'd be curious for both old flippers and those newly rebuilt, which I assume in either state those who own the game are satisfied with the overall feel and shot making ability.

Just download the protractor image I've included, print, cut, tape in place with 0 being center flipper tip when at rest, press the flipper button and take an overhead shot showing the angles (left & right flippers). Here you can see how I did it: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/it-s-time-to-talk-about-cgc-remake-flippers-/page/4#post-6230716

Will an original AFM owner or two please step-up and do this for the group? This is not about proving who is right/wrong, which version is better/worse. Rather, we are just trying to get some analytical data to see if there is truly a difference in the flipper throw from the original to the remake (at this point, I don't think anyone can definitively say there is or is not until we get more measurements from both AFM and AFMr owners).
protractor.pngprotractor.png

#242 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

As I've watched this thread - with photos and measurements - and played my own HUO Monster Bash, I'm starting to think the "throw" isn't as wildly different as I thought it was (though still shorter than it should be), but the "feel" argument can't just be discarded. They DO "feel" different because they ARE different - they are more like Spooky flippers where they get soft at the end of the stroke. It's pretty clear to me, and the other players I've had over at my place. They are mushy at the end of the stroke, and just aren't as snappy with any of the shots.

We need more empirical data. I too question if the throw is different or not. My Getaway feels like the throw is more, but as I stated in my previous post the flipper throw on that pin is exactly the same as my AFMr (50 degrees). Flipper alignment is different (AFMr is a little lower by design) which makes the ball more difficult to craddle. However, as you state, the flipper mechanisms themself feel different. Might be the switches, might be the electronics, who knows at this point - why additional data is welcome.

My Getaway flippers have been rebuilt, including replacement Williams bats, and I use the same rings on both my AFM and my Getaway (Titan thin bands). I'm sure the switches are different, the coils may be different (I've adjusted my coil strength down from default), some of the other flipper mech parts may be different (I don't know), one is a well aged 30 year old pin while the others is only 3, etc. The sound is even different, but this could be an effect of the build components, cabinet materials, etc.

I don't think any honest person would say they are the same. I think the main effort here is to understand what is different (i.e. the "why"), and then do our best given the controls/settings available to adjust the AFMr to be as close to the original as it can be (realizing most likely they will never be identical).

#265 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

The TL;DR version is this...
The new replacement flipper bracket (C-16103) provides noticeably less flipper travel than the original (B-13104) and will be a problem for people if they replace their bracket.
However, my MBr uses what appears to be the original style part, and therefore seems to have the correct flipper travel.
It would be nice if AFMr and MMr owners could confirm which part is being used in those machines.

So, how many degrees of movement is the “correct” flipper travel?

#267 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

That's a good question. On my WH20, it appears to be about 52 degrees, but the "new replacement" brackets seem to provide only about 45 degrees.
I was able to bend the new bracket back a bit to where I now get the same flipper travel on both.
The flipper travel on my MBr is 50 degrees - still a bit less than my WH20
Some people have said that CGC got the flippers to be "better" on MBr - maybe it's that they used the older style bracket for MBr and the previous remakes have the new style.
Or maybe it's something else, or maybe it's all just BS.
It would be nice if there was some Williams document somewhere that said what the actual flipper travel angle should be, but I've never seen such a statement.

In a previous post, I noted that my AFMr LE is 50 degrees, Getaway (rebuilt) is 50 degrees - I didn't notice a difference in throw after vs. before, and Stern JP Prem is 50 degrees.

It's looking more and more like 50 degrees might be "correct" with older warn out parts resulting in slightly more (makes sense) and some newer rebuilt parts being significantly less for some (doesn't make sense).

#269 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Mr_Tantrum Can you see which base plate your AFMr is using? Since you have 50 degrees of travel, it is probably the "old" style, but it would be nice to confirm.

Won't be home until later, but happy to take pics.

#270 2 years ago

AFMr
IMG_5839 (resized).JPGIMG_5839 (resized).JPG
IMG_5840 (resized).JPGIMG_5840 (resized).JPG

Getaway (rebuilt)
IMG_5842 (resized).JPGIMG_5842 (resized).JPG
IMG_5841 (resized).JPGIMG_5841 (resized).JPG

#285 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

That's already been done - in fine detail - in that other thread that I referenced. Lots of back and forth, including input from CGC, and after all was done, the timings were identical.
And now we've shown the flipper travel is the same. Maybe the next thing would be the flipper motion speed. I guess a super high speed camera could be used to compare the velocity and acceleration between the original and remake.
But if the flipper hardware is the same (coil, sleeve, etc.) and the signal timing is the same, I don't see how it can be much different.

I don't know if it's been stated definitively, but was the recommended rest position of the original AFM flippers the same slightly drooped recommended position on the AFMr? If not, this would definitely give the perception that the throw on the original flippers was greater, easier to craddle balls, etc., and would also to some extent explain the difference in shot "feel".

#287 2 years ago

Oh, I remember seeing that post now but it didn't register with me that was pertaining to original AFM, but should have known since it was from Eddy. I think others have commented or at least referenced flipper alignment here regarding AFM original, but they were not aligning with the slight droop.

Here is where I am thus far on the topic. Again, I'm participating here not to determine who is right/wrong, if original or remake is better, etc. I just want to understand if there are indeed empirical differences, and it so how to best setup my AFMr to emulate the original as best as possible.

- Flipper mechs/parts/buttons are the same
- Flipper travel is the same (accurately measured)
- Flipper alignment is the same (or should be according to the game designer)
- Flipper coil response is the same (scientifically demonstrated)
- Electronics are different, but the measurable results appear to be the same
- Out of the box, AFMr flippers are stronger than they should be but this can be adjusted (which I have done)
- Some of the feel differences can be attributed to the age and components of the nearly 30 year old original verses the 3 year old remake

What else?

#289 2 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

TBH I don't care what data would support/refute how/why they feel different. All I know is remakes DO play significantly different (worse), so I replaced my MMR with a players condition original. Life's too short to play bad pinball. You guys crunch the numbers; I'll be battling for the kingdom.

While I won't argue your opinion on which is "better", I would say that the nominal difference in feel (my perspective, at least from playing well restored original AFM pins and my AFMr LE) is only one of the contributing factor for many buyers. I truly wanted an original AFM when I first started looking, but didn't want to have to restore it (I've already spent enough effort, time, and expense on other pins). Also, I didn't want to have to spend time constantly addressing issues, which again I was already accustomed to on my other two 90's era pins at the time. Finally, the price point of nice condition originals at the time when I was buying was actually more than the low play single owner LE I purchased. I'm a casual player with space for a limited collection (3 for sure, 4 at most) who enjoys modding my pins and having them both as toys and art/show pieces. It took some time, but I finally convinced myself to go remake, and I've not regretted the decision a single moment.

If someone offered me a straight up trade between my LE and a similar condition original, I would really have to think about it. On the other hand, if I owned a CE and a comparable original offer was made then I'm pretty sure I would take that deal without hesitation.

#358 2 years ago

We've discussed what is driving them to some point, but what we lack is real data that shows the results of how they are driven. Starting to get a little there with recent posts, but the main challenge seems to be there is no one person in on this conversation with access to both versions of the pin and the equipment/know how to take the comparative measurements.

#367 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pinball?
Kinda like cars!!!
(except in almost every single way possible)

Well, they both have locks on the doors for one thing.

#369 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

And people argue endlessly about them, too...

And some think their paint colors are beautiful, when they are really quite atrocious.

#408 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Just tackled this thread today...

May I respectfully request that you redo these measurements, this time making sure that the corner of the protractor is actually up against the flipper shaft? If the shaft is really where you indicate, no wonder the flippers are wonky! Normally it's right in the middle of the semicircle at the end of the bat.
Also note the protractor has itself moved considerably between these photos, as I point out at the 55 degree mark and with the circles. A little scotch tape does wonders.
Not cropping off any portion of the bat or the protractor would be helpful in the analysis, as well.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Hmm, I did it by feel and the protractors were butted against the shaft. However, since the part is hidden by the flipper, now I'm wondering if I was actually butted against the sleeve that may extend up through the playfield some. I'll have to double check and report back. While this may change the angle slightly, I did use the same process for each of my 3 pins (AFMr, Getaway, and Stern JP) and they all delivered the same results. Regardless, I will remeasure for accuracy purposes.

Update: Okay, here is what I discovered. Indeed the sleeve was what I was butting up against instead of the flipper shaft itself. However, I was unable to lift the flipper high enough to expose the shaft without loosening it, which I did not want to do. Therefore, I made the 1/4 larger in the corner of the protractor to accommodate the sleeve size and what I now measure is 47 degrees instead of 50. This was consistent for both flippers, and again the same on my other games. Therefore, if you are going to measure the throw angle determine if you are actually butted against the shaft or against the sleeve so everyone is aware of the relative measurements.

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