My MBrLE only flips like the original because the flipper power is set higher, which means the orbits are killer fast when hit, which is the same as OG MB, but the direct shots to Frank, the scoop, and Tomb Treasure target are brutally fast, making airballs the major result, so bad that the dimples due to the airballs is like dropping 10000 pachinko balls from 20 feet onto the playfield. Shots to the ramps are harder to hit because the "sweet spot" has moved closer to the tip, and it is not as predictable as OG MB. Now, this being said, I've made it through a double MOR game and I have no real issues with how it plays, but the airballs are brutal... I've seen balls come off Franks feet and land all the way up in the Mummy's face, and most times land on the right and left return ramps, or are ricocheted into the purple Electrode flashers (busting their tops off) but the chaos during multiball feels about the same as OG MB. I don't have a OG to compare to for rest position or full stroke position.

Of all the remakes, I feel MB is the best for being closest to OG only due to how if "feels" when I play it. MMr and AFMr are decent shooters, but I have had my best games of all time on those titles only on OG equipment. Now for MBr, I had never made it to MOR but 1 time on OG MB back in the 90's but that was because I only had limited access to one at Dave and Busters in Cincinnati and that was a 100 mile round trip to go play. Since owning a MBrLE, I have not regretted the purchase because as far as my feeble old man skills are these days, I am still able to make it rock and roll. Not sure how long it will take to get to Lyman's Lament without a flipper code though...

I will add, the right (and left) flippers do not extend to the original OG MB up position, because I remember being able to backhand both Creature and the right Bride ramp on OG MB, on the remake, not so much, I can get a slow roller to backhand the right ramp, but backhanding Creature is a complete no go. A backhand left ramp WAS possible on OG MB, but just barely, and on MBr, its even more rare, and mostly impossible.

Not denying anything, but MBr is closer to OG than the other two remakes, and if you adjust them as CrazyLevi has pointed out, they are even closer. The OG B/W Fliptronic circuit is way better than the remakes, I think this is because a physical EOS switch and parallel wound coils has always been the superior design. Pat Lawlor said the Stern solution back in the early days of post B/W made it insignificant and dismissed it because he was shilling for Stern and his PLDS designs for them. I have never met a real player who has said ANY other design from any other manufacturer was as good or better, and I agree. Nothing is as snappy and consistent as B/W flippers from the golden days of Fliptronics. I asked Steve Richie at the last TPF in 2019 how does one design a table to compensate for loss of flipper strength as game times increase and his answer was priceless... "Always start your design with hot coils." So they always expect flipper strength to start stronger and end up weaker during gameplay, I asked why they didn't put cooling fans on the flipper coils and he said they did on the Hyperball launcher but that was just to keep the thing from melting down. For regular flippers, the cost outweighs the benefit.

If I removed the scoop protector on my MBrLE right now, I would swear with the exception of the backhands being weak due to a very slight stroke length difference, after playing it through a double MOR game, it feels and shoots like I remember it shooting, and the LE they had at Chicago Pin Expo when they unveiled it played like I remember it, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. Rejects from the scoop due to the hard steel edges of the protector along with it being thicker than a Cliffy makes the scoop shot a gamble on direct shots from my higher juiced flipper strengths. It the one thing it does that makes it more fun, especially when the spin off the flippers gets thrown off axis after it rebounds off the back of the scoop and proceeds to go curve balling either back to the flipper or CDTM because I have had it pull a Houdini and swear it passed through a solid object, specifically both of my flippers...

This can be fixed... I have done it on my MBrLE and it takes about a minute to do and no more SDTM. And I am not talking just less than 25%, but 100% without even upgrading to the latest CGC software and the only tool needed is a large pair of visegrips. See the MBr owner thread for more info if this happening on your MBr.

I don't know how you could be more far off base than with this statement. If one were to ask any rando on the street to play both an OG and a remake and ask them to judge which was the original and which was a shitty copy, I can tell you they would not be doing anything but tossing a coin and shouting "heads" because there is no real difference to the average rando on the street. I can guarantee if you ask them which was better, an OG MB, or a MBrCE they would shrug their shoulders and look puzzled. That's all CGC really wants with their remakes, that the average person dropping coin in one gets to play a game that makes them feel good about what they got for a buck. They are not out to please the top end of the market as much as they are just providing a game that others may not have played before. Your frustration that they play differently, have different quality issues, or are electronically and physically not identical to OG equipment is non sequitur. There is a market for remakes, even if they are shitty remakes, because CGC sold every one of the 1250 LE's of MB, and who knows how many CE and SE's on top of that. If they suck so bad, why did everyone want one?

No, "we" are not, but that your average coin dropper (coin-op's major user/customer base) is, was my point.

Have you not had a 45 minute game of CFTBL where you could make the whirlpool ramp shot at the beginning of the game but by the end there was no way the flipper could make it, even on a impulse shot? Steve Richie says they get weaker with play, and to start your design with hot flippers... I'll take my experience and his expertise and say, yeah, flippers get weaker when they get hot.

I respect your opinion, but disagree with the notion that the emulation is the problem. If these play like OG's or don't, by my Hi score table, you would not be able to tell me they play any different. I have had my best MB scores in my life on my MBrLE, the only thing different to me is the scoop protector makes the scoop shot reject way more balls than OG MB, and thats due to the step metal edge acting like an anti-scoop force field to slow rolling balls. I have completed every mode, every monster, scored every easter egg in it EXCEPT Lyman's Lament and that damn scoop protector is the reason.

So, now, how does one gauge if it plays like OG or doesn't? By feel? By score?, if that is true, my remake plays BETTER than OG MB, because my best score on my remake is about 1/3 higher than my best OG score, and that I did back in the 90's when I was way younger and way better than my 59th year on this planet. Not trying to justify why I purchased one, I am having a blast with it and those who choose to buy one of 3000 OG MB's can go right ahead and pay $10K plus for it.

I only paid $8300 delivered and I got the big ass color screen, integrated LED RGB GI, Custom LED lit sculpted topper, blue metallic powder coated trim, laser etched lockdown collectors plate, integrated plasma toy, mirror blades, plus integrated lighted cabinet speakers, and a shaker motor. If that was not a pinball bargain, call me crazy.

There is a reason you are hard pressed to find an NIB MBrLE.

And this is how we should all approach our disagreements, with respect and understanding. Yes, As my age would indicate I have played just about everything when it was in its prime, from about 1966 onwards. As far as machine to machine, even OG versions of all 3 remakes didn't all play the same or "right" as you use the term. I grew up paying for my pinball a quarter at a time, and even better, a dime for 5 balls. No two operators set their machines up the same, we had favorites at different locations because of this. My friends (same age) who have played my recreation and also a prime OG say it feels like a MB, a better than average example, but they have played others that play better. And once you get used to how THIS machine plays, OG equipment feels wrong, and I have played Larry's MB (of Starship Fantasy fame) several times and it feels like I'm playing a Fire Power or a System 11 machine, and not because of age, just how the flippers felt to me. So I am happy, but also a little sad that you don't like the remakes, because that means you are probably not going to like an original title CGC might produce in the future, which I am looking forward too.

Now comes the big question... does anyone remember the days when you wasted a quarter to just see if both the flippers were working at all? I think the discussion on flipper "feel" is relevant in an offhand way, but refusing to play a pinball machine just because something doesn't "feel" right is being a bit unrealistic. I have stepped up to many a machine where the flippers felt "wrong" but you adjust and have fun. The only reasons I've
ever gave up was either a sticky flipper, or one so weak it couldn't make the ramp shots.

Out of the box, my MBrLE did NOT shoot well, and was not anything like an OG MB...
But now it does and that's because I tweaked everything to make it right, Including bumping up flipper power to get that snappy feel, bending the scoop to address the SDTM issues, adding foam and adjusting right orbit lane wall near Drac to eliminate most SDTM off his feet, and reforming the left Bride wireform to better match the stainless ball guides.

Yes, and it gets all over everything when you try to kiss them...

I think if you are good with doing some tweaking, they can be made to feel like OG. I've played a lot of OG MB, both when new and even recently, and also in my Pin League for the past 10 years, and there was an OG at the Superstition Springs mall here in Az and it was an immaculate nearly pristine example. I know how a MB should "feel" and after going over my MBrLE and tweaking everything until it plays like OG, I know it can be done. Did it come NIB shooting that way? No. Does everyone who plays it now think its like OG, yes. As a matter of fact, many claim to have had their best game of MB ever on my LE... so color me unconvinced on not shooting like OG, because I have mine Dialed In.

The problem is, they have it in their minds that the system is different, they know it is different, and so there is an unrealized confirmation bias starting out of the gate. "It feels different" may be because of this knowledge bias overshadowing actual subjective observation. They know this isn't a real fliptronic flipper circuit, so there is already a tendency to "nit pick" about their performance. If we actually did a double blind test, which is nearly impossible since you can identify a remake by subtle clues (insert molds are different) and not so subtle clues (all LED, rgb GI, plus all the upgrades) we might be able to prove or disprove the myth. Barring that, we could put a scope on all the switches and coils and run traces that show actual flipper timing, when flipper switches close, when coil voltages are applied, what voltage is applied when, and EOS switch closing/opening timing. But to what end? Justifying a $8300 purchase? Proving there is no difference? I got better things to do with my time- like play pinball.

Which has been my observation. I didn't purchase a MBrLE without playing it. I played the LE they had at Expo when they anounced it, and it felt fine. I have been highly pleased with everything on my MBrLE except the dimples, see owners thread for pics of my war wounds... but what are you going to do?

Well Mr Beardsley beat me to it...

TL;DR warning for those who don't care... read on for my drunken analysis...

I think it comes down to the "snap" of the flipper is what the "feelings" people are experiencing and what I think is different. What do I mean by snap? That may take a minute... you can skip on down past the flip types here because most of us know that part already...

Flip Types

Ok a flipper has several modes by which it is used by a player... There is the rolling flip, the cradled flip, the cradled roll flip, the drop catch flip, the scoop it flip, the tap pass flip, the post pass flip, the tip it flip, the backhand flip, the Slap save flip, and finally the flip on the fly flip.

The rolling flip- ball rolls down inlane, player times his shot and flips.

The cradled flip- player releases ball from cradle, and immediately flips (extreme backhand) this sometimes does a post pass depending on machine.

The cradled roll flip, release the ball from cradle, let roll, then flip

The drop catch flip- time the flip to meet and counter the balls down field momentum resulting in a dead, catchable ball

The scoop it flip- player times flip to aid scooping the ball up the inlane

The Tap pass flip- slight flipper button press to momentarily tap the ball to the opposite flipper

The post pass flip- usually from a cradled position, flipper is immediately cycled to backhand the ball to the post and bounce it to opposite flipper, hopefully with little or no ball momentum

The tip it flip- this is similar to flip on the fly, but player is actually timing his flip so that the tip will be just in the ball path causing it to deflect but in no specific direction other than NOT SDTM

The backhand flip- a slow rolling ball is allowed to roll up an extended flipper which then is suddenly released and reflipped sending the ball to the opposite direction of normal flipper direction. Usually is preceded by a post pass that makes the ball roll up the opposite inlane and back down setting up the backhand shot

The slap save flip- similar to tip it except is accompanied with a hard flipper button cabinet slap. Meant to move the table causing a step in ball trajectory that helps "push" the ball in the direction of the flipper tip, causing it to deflect and save the ball.

And finally the flip on the fly flip- which is any shot where the ball meets the flipper AFTER the flipper has started moving. The ball and flipper meet at some point and results in a ball trajectory that can be calculated on the fly to send the ball in almost any direction.

OK So SNAP is what actually?

So where does "snap" fit in to all these different types of flips? I believe the "feeling" that is off is the difference between flipper acceleration with ball mass added versus an empty flipper, or the change in speed of the flipper differs depending of the closed mass system. It's either plunger, link, return spring, crank, shaft, flipper body and rubber, or all that plus the mass of the ball. When "unloaded" the flipper will accelerate (and change its position accordingly) depending on the force applied by the coil. This acceleration/speed/position profile differs between a loaded flipper and unloaded one. This difference is "snap".

And this is what I think differs from originals to remakes. Its not that the speed of the ball at the end of the flip is the same, because that is probably what they were aiming for, but its the speed of the ball and its acceleration throughout the entire impulse of the flipper. I think they do differ, which means they remakes hit terminal ball velocity only nearer the tip, and that OG flippers reach terminal velocity of the closed mass system quicker than the remakes do. This makes the control of the ball at the tip of the flipper harder and makes the remake flippers feel "mushy" like they are not "snapping" like OG equipment. To determine wether "snap" is different, we need the Slow Mo guys to film both types of flippers under both instances (loaded and unloaded) and see if the acceleration profiles are different. Basically looking for the second derivative of position versus time (you know acceleration is the first derivative of the speed which is the first derivative of position v.s. Time) I think this is going to be the ONLY way to determine what is actually happening, but what do I know, I was only a nuclear engineer in the Navy, and a aviation lighting engineer and a manufacturing R&D engineer for 15 years at a aerospace company.

Another way to think about this is, the OG flippers get the ball moving quicker so that at one point, the ball has reached terminal velocity at a much sooner time than the remake flipper. The resultant speed of the balls are identical at full stroke, but differ in between the at rest to full ball velocity curve versus time. This means the OG flippers "scoot" the ball and the remakes "roll" the ball. This makes remakes shoot different because ball spin is different as well as the end stroke "feel" doesn't seem as "snappy", and so the aiming of remake flippers is possibly different than aiming shots with OG flippers.

So this would also make them feel different whenever the player flips the flipper unloaded because without ball mass, the flipper position vs. time would probably be more in line between the remakes and OG because ball mass is the major component of the closed mass system, and unloaded the ability for the flippers to reach terminal velocity probably happens nearly instantaneously at the moment of the flip. But put the ball mass back into the equation and now the delivery of the impulse amplifies their velocity differences from rest until full stroke. I think even I feel the difference when I think about it, and to combat it I upped the power of the flippers until my shots where more in keeping with the muscle memory of shooting Bally/Williams flippers (like whats on my BOP). Ok, but what has that also done? I think I get way more airballs off Frank and the phantom flip and tomb treasure targets due to my terminal velocity being higher than OG equipment, and I get more rejects from the scoop and the left Bride ramp due to ball speed being faster than OG MB.

If you got this far into my explanation, I hope it made sense.

Well, after thinking about this some more, it makes sense that for most on the fly flipper shots, the flippers would feel normal, sending the ball in "remembered" directions since flipper velocity unloaded is probably closer to identical between the two, thus the flipper meets the ball at the same speed and resultant impulse to ball is more "normal" feeling. It is only when the flipper is loaded (ball touching the rubber) when the flipper impulse starts (player closes flipper switch), that the change in velocity per change in time (acceleration) curve becomes apparent. I really need to know now HOW they are different, because this mind exercise has made me think they ARE different. Apply this theory to all the different types of flips a player uses (see my previous post) and you get a mixed bag of differences depending on if the flip starts loaded or unloaded. So some shots feel "right" and others feel "mushy" or to use their term "wrong".

I was going to post a big long diatribe on why I like my remake over OG equipment, and then I realized, I don't give a shit if people don't like the remakes, I do, and that's all that matters.

And it was my observation that I hate reading long diatribes about why remakes suck that made me change my mind about posting one on why they don't.

Thats like asking a pinhead how many pinball machines a person should have... it works both ways

I'm starting to think I need to re-read the Pinside by-laws... seems there is an actual legal requirement to rehash the Coke vs. Pepsi argument every 10 posts in this thread. Getting a little stale after the 230th post on why remakes suck and OG equipment is the ONLY real versions of the game... can we get to some actual measurable differences first before we start taking sides again? I am here for the flipper science, not the psychology lesson and arm waving on why which one is better than the other, I could not care less.