(Topic ID: 291468)

It's Time to Talk About CGC / Remake Flippers

By CrazyLevi

3 years ago


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#198 3 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

Yes, I started that thread and did the testing. The increased delay in the CGC games relative to the BW originals is easily detectable by an oscilloscope. I don't know if it is perceived by the player as no one has tested that at least as far as I know. I thought it would be interesting to try an experiment to determine how many milliseconds of delay could be perceived and how it is perceived but to my knowledge that has never been done. CGC came into the thread and mentioned they may include an option in future games to eliminate this delay. I'm not sure if this was done in MB (which was not out at that time, and I have never played their remake of that) and if this is why some people feel that game as a flipper feel that is more true to the original.

Did you notice any difference in the pulse width timing (power and hold) and amplitude between the originals and remakes? Also the shape of the pulses, ie. decay, overshoot, etc.?

#204 3 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

The initial voltages seemed similar. The originals don't use pulse width modulation and also did not have software adjustable flipper power. The main difference I found was in the initial delay but that was small. I sold my remake years ago, so I no longer have any ability to look into this further.

So there are major differences then as to how the power is being delivered to the flippers in the original vs remakes. It's not too hard to compare the flipper range but I think quantifying the effects of the electronics will be difficult.

#211 3 years ago

I took some flipper range measurements on the games I have set up. Measurements were all over the map.
Full Throttle = 42°
RFM = 48° (not restored by me during ownership - last 10 years)
Alien = 54°
CC = 54° (HEP restored 12yrs ago)
LOTR = 57° (huo)

1 week later
#300 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

That's already been done - in fine detail - in that other thread that I referenced. Lots of back and forth, including input from CGC, and after all was done, the timings were identical.

I don't think your statement is correct. If I read the other thread correctly, it only investigated the delay between when the flipper button was pressed and when the flipper flipped. The last unknown is how the power is being delivered to the flipper. Do both systems use pulse width modulation? If so, how does the ulse timing and amplitude compare? I think you also need to compare the shape of the pulses at the coil because different series resistance or inductance in the line could have an affect.

#304 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

This may be true, and probably needs to be examined again.
Furthermore, I wonder if it would be possible for the software to allow a setting where it does not pulse the signal at all, and then have a signal more like the top one in vid1900's picture above.
So does the PWM being used in the remakes make the flippers more like a Stern machine?

Sorry for being redundant, I didn't see Vid1900's post before making my response.

No pulse would be similar to setting the flippers at the highest power setting.

I think most of today's manufacturers use PWM as it allows you to adjust the flipper power.

#307 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Well, do we really know that the max setting is actually no modulation? The max setting might just be like 90% duty.
Unfortunately, we are already beyond my rudimentary electrical engineering knowledge.

I expect the max setting has modulation, but from what people have said, I gather the flippers at max would be too powerful anyway, so 100% on wouldn't help.

I think what Levi says is needed is that the power is consistantly strong regardless of where the ball is on the flipper when flipped.

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