If you are a TL;DR guy, you may want to avoid this one, so be forewarned. It's a complicated issue and it needs the swollen word count to properly articulate.

Over the past several years, I have played a decent sampling of CGC remake machines, mostly Attack From Mars, which is not only my favorite game, but has been omnipresent at locations and in tournaments since it was released in 2018.

Like many, I always wondered why the games ship with such a strange flipper alignment. For all the effort and expense that went in to producing a high-quality reproduction that looks just like the original and seems to be of high build quality, I always thought it was odd that the flipper stroke is much shorter than the original production machine, with flippers that appear to reach only about 60 to 70 percent or so has high as the original flippers when fully extended.

As a tournament player, this required a significant adjustment. The ball was more difficult to trap now, and center area shots were also changed drastically and more difficult to hit.

On the other side, orbit and side ramps were now much easier, or at least much more common with a "missed" shot. And, successful ski passes were incredibly easy, with even the slowest inlane ball rolling lazily up a fully extended flipper and drifting gracefully over to the other flipper.

Tournament players would frequently note this, and sometimes it was used in a "the remakes aren't as good as the originals because the flippers are weird" argument. My response was always, "well that's true, but if I owned the game I'd just fix the flipper stroke/alignment, like I have to do the majority of the time I get a used game into my shop." Still, it was always in the back of my mind how strange it was that these remakes, apparently designed to original spec, and using similar parts as the originals, would be so strangely set up from the factory.

This month, I acquired an AFM SE remake, and to be honest, I did it pretty cheaply. As it's my favorite game, I was intrigued by the idea of keeping this mint condition AFM and dumping my well-loved "players" example that I've had for many years, while still coming out ahead a generous amount in the cash department. With the gorgeous, mint condition playfield, cabinet, and everything else, and with the larger color screen and upgraded graphics and the greatly improved sound/speakers, it was an exciting development that this machine basically fell into my lap.

I set up my new AFM, did a light cleaning, and played a ball. I was immediately struck by how short the flipper stroke was. While I expected it, this one was even more severe than other examples I'd played, and the stroke was uneven, with the right flipper stroke even shorter than the left. I turned the game off and went about fixing the alignment, as I always figured I'd do if I ever ended up with one of these remakes.

So, I lifted the playfield, loosened the WPC-style pawls, and raised the flippers 10-15 degrees or so to make them extend to the same height as my original AFM machine. Then, I bent back the plunger stop brackets slightly with pliers to extend the stroke, and make the flippers drop back to normal alignment in their resting state. The whole operation took me about 10 minutes, and now I was ready to play. And play I did, for an hour. Later that night, I had a group of friends over, and we played it all night. After they all left, I cleaned up all the empties, turned off all my other machines, (giving the remake ample time to chill out and cool down) and played another game of the new AFM. Then, for the first time that day, I played my original.

The difference, frankly, was night and day. The original AFM flippers (and keep in mind these haven't been rebuilt in about 5 years) were incredibly snappy, with a consistent strength, power, and feel that distributed equal power to all of the shots whether in single ball or multiball play. Both side shots and up the middle shots were lightning fast, accurate, and consistent.

In comparison, the remake flippers felt sluggish, and inconsistent ESPECIALLY on the wide shots. The wider the shot (the left and right ramp, or the oribits), the spongier and slower the shots felt. This was much more noticeable in multiball play, with weaker shots, and even an occasional partial "collapse" of an extended flipper, like you'd see sometimes on an old Data East or Sega game. The flippers, in effect, reminded me much more of Spooky flippers than classic W/B flippers. It was nothing I couldn't get used to or work with, but I'd say the play and flipper feel was inferior to the original. Now, that's opinion, and any particular player may feel one way or the other about it, but for me, the conclusion was inescapable: At the very least, the flippers on the remakes vs. the originals is noticeably DIFFERENT, whether or not the owner corrects the flipper stroke to original spec.

Playing both of the games some more, while at the same time getting a little more stoned (hey it's legal now, I had no choice!) I came to another conclusion: The reason these CGC games ship with such a short, non-orginal flipper stroke/alignment is to hide the deficiencies and weakness of whatever is driving their flipper system. By keeping the stroke short, the biggest difference - the mushiness on wide shots - is effectively hidden/eliminated. The shots all WANT to go wide with this alignment, and orbit shots and ramp shots are "easier" and snappier, even if the middle shots more difficult and now only a cinch from a trap. When the stroke distance is corrected to accurately ape that of the original 1995 build, this sleight of hand is uncovered.

These are my conclusions and opinions. I'm wondering if anybody else has tried to correct the flipper stroke on these remakes, or has any other nuanced, educated opinions on this. I understand that people may get defensive or agitated, but that's not the intention. I would have been extremely interested in reading about this from someone else, as I've always wondered why these games ship with such a strange, non original spec flipper stroke. Now I think I know.

In the end, my decision was made very quickly. As much as I loved owning a "brand new," mint-condition, sparkling clean and smooth example of my favorite game, with a fancy screen and richer sound, it was simply no contest. I listed and sold the remake in 2 days (during Pinside's blackout) and kept my "beater," but original, and original playing, AFM. And I'll probably have it for life.

I haven't played an MBr recently. Is the factory set stroke/alignment similar to that of the AFMrs? I've really only played AFMr, a lot, as that one seems to be the most popular/common on location.

Is that really so?

I sold my AFM se for a little under "face value" and seems to be the case for the others I've seen on the market.

You could be talking LEs or different titles however.

He got the terminology wrong. You don’t adjust the coil stops, which is indeed impossible.

Step 1: loosen the pawl, which grips the flipper shaft. Adjust the flippers so at the end of the stroke, they are higher.

Now your final stroke is where you want the flipper to be, but in resting position, the flippers will be sitting too high, uneven with the inlanes. You've raised the "trap" position of the flippers, but you haven't extended the stroke.

Grab some pliers, and bend the plunger/pawl brackets. I don’t know what this officially called, but here it is:

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You bend these ever so slightly away from the flipper coil, it will allow the flippers to rest lower, and at the same time, extends the stroke. Just bend it slightly. You can always go back and bend it more. And if you've gone too far, you can nudge it back.

Do it on both flippers and you now have a “correct” original w/b flipper stroke. In the pic you may be able to see that I had done it, both of those stops are bent up toward the bottom of the playfield (top of the pic) slightly. This works on any system 11/wpc games if necessary.

Even though this "mod" doesn't exactly turn CGC flippers into original WPC flippers, I would still recommend it for owners of these games as it makes it feel closer to the originals. The stock very short flipper stroke and low extension stands out like a sore thumb on these games.

That would probably work too. I've been bending those things for years and it really is easy and fast. I know it seems like it wouldn't be but it's not tough to get it lined up the way you want it.

I think I saw this originally suggested in one of Clay's old pinball repair guides in relation to fixing this issue when only incorrectly sized coil stops were available for Sys 11 or WPC games. I know it seems kind of inelegant to be bending metal on the flipper base plates but it works well and doesn't seem to cause any problems.

Extend the flipper with your fingers so you can slip the pliers in between the base plate and the flipper pawl, and give it a little pull or push. Like I said a little will do ya or you'll find the flippers sitting too low when in resting state.

I do a variation on this also on Sonic games like Prospector, which have a shorter flipper travel than I'd like.

Yep that’s the idea

Man this just isn’t true.

And most of the vintage games we play have had the flippers rebuilt recently. It’s not Like we are grabbing games off route and playing 25 year old flipper mechs.

There’s opinions and that’s fine but it’s a fact that the CGC flipper stroke factory setting is abnormally short.

I’ll agree that a beat to shit route game badly in need of rebuilt flippers can have abnormally long strokes due to wear but that is not relevant to this discussion.

No. You are not going to gain traction with this because it’s not true.

The fact that you believe these games shipped with those ridiculously shallow flippers makes you look like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I’ll be happy to rebuild my AFM flippers live on camera and we can see if the flipper stroke magically shrinks by a third. It’s not gonna happen.

We had a pretty good thread going here when we stuck to facts vs just making things up.

This isn’t about “a game.”

I’ve owned hundreds of WPC games over 20 years and rebuilt the flippers personally on most of them. I know what a wpc flipper stroke is supposed to look like.

This isn’t even up for debate. Anybody with any experience teching or playing WPC games knows the remake stroke is freakishly short.

Quite a few. Dozens of times. When you’ve shopped out hundreds of games, you have to do it every now and then.

The flipper stroke has never magically shrunk by a third.

What are basing all of this nonsense on anyway? You really think WPC games shipped in the 90s with the same short strokes as CGC games?

Tell you what...dig up some old 90s Williams promo videos, they are all over YouTube. Should be pretty easy to prove your case.

Someone needs to tell PAPA, and in fact every owner of ever other restored or refurbished wpc game I’ve ever played, that their baseplates are flogged out.

It’s just crazy that in 32 years of playing WPC games I’ve never managed to cross paths with one that wasn’t flogged. Even my mint HUO monster bash has what I’ve been mistaking as a “normal” flipper stroke.

Crazy.

Man Williams was really cheaping out in 1995, using used, flogged out baseplates and flipper parts on their brand new games....
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You are just crabby cause your job owns you and you lack the personal freedom to get stoned.

Go piss in a cup.

Ha! Touché

Let’s agree to disagree on this one. Maybe we’ll join up for...a beer!

You guys are right about the gap and the saucer...it’s a drainy game!

Get into the flow and it can get easy, but missing shots or getting over tempted by the saucer can get ugly quickly.

I just line them up with the pins on the playfield that are there for flipper alignment (done without rubber for precision). And yes the above is how they end up. I misunderstood your line of inquiry and answered it quickly and offhandedly.

I didn’t realize I was under oath when you asked your flippant, one line question without any of the specifics you went on about in great detail above.

Here ya go Neil send this to Brian Eddy and ask him if I got it right on the remake flipper resting position.

This is persecution of the victim !!!

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The remakes all seem to play exactly the same to me, for better or worse. You can’t fault their consistency.

It may not be “scientific” but I feel like my opening post had a ton more reasoned specifics than “they just feel different.” And I was comparing two games that were located a few feet away from each other, not trying to compare a game I was playing with dusty memories of Location play and other people's collections.

Don’t see the point in repeating it all.

It seems pointless, doesn't it? THere are those here who will just claim the original AFM's mechs are "totally flogged."

Anybody who has been around WPC games for 30 years knows the remakes ship with way too shallow flipper strokes.

Yeah three straight dumb posts is a sure way to show us how you don’t care about something!

Like how you told me 7 years ago you were ok with an old piece of gum under a gorgeous game I sold that you still have yet are still whining endlessly about over half a decade later.

SEVEN YEARS.

Whined endlessly until I gave him some free plastics and a cupholder and still, SEVEN FUCKING YEARS later this clown is still whining about it. After we shook hands, had a beer, and declared that everybody was happy with the deal.

Don’t sell family arcade a game, or he’ll latch on to anything like a pit Bull and will NEVER FUCKING DROP IT even if you give him some Free shit to shut the fuck up about it.

You’ve been warned people. A deal is never done when it’s Family Arcade. Not as long as he has a case of beer around.

Here’s a still from the original 1995 AFM promo video.

Not the best angle but I think we can agree the remakes have a much shallower stroke.

Don’t fall for the smoke and mirrors!! They are trying to baffle you with bullshit!
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Because he's out of his mind?

This guy bought a game from me SEVEN YEARS AGO. He came, he looked at it, he paid me money, he took the game and drove away.

A couple days later I get a message whining about a piece of gum underneath the cabinet. A PIECE OF FUCKING GUM. Like dozens of games I've owned over 20 years. WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT? The game was NEVER advertised as "shopped," it was never advertised as mint, it was advertised as a nice, fully working WCS and that's exactly what it fucking was. What did this guy expect for $2500?! Even back then, that was a good price on a nice, fully working WCS that played great.

The game also had an off board battery and a couple of other upgrades I didn't bother mentioning. But he was focused on this piece of gum like Rain Man. Oh and there were a litany of other complaints about a 20-year old used game that was sold as-is and that he agreed to buy - happily - after inspecting it.

So I gave him some free plastics I had laying around, and a free cupholder, and he came over and picked them up, we had a beer, and we SHOOK HANDS ON THE DEAL. Again. Everything is cool right?

For the past seven years, he has continued to needle me publicly over this piece of fucking gum, going back on his word that the deal was complete and he was happy with it. A couple years ago - due to his incessant psychopathic ranting - I offered to buy back the game for what he paid for it. He declined. Because I had sold him a perfectly nice game that 5 years later was now worth well more than what he paid for it.

But to this day, he refuses to let it go. The way I see it, he at least owes me a fucking cupholder and a couple loose WCS plastics, as those were supposed to buy his satisfaction. Instead, he welched on the deal and now you all have to hear about it.

DO NOT SELL A GAME TO FAMILY ARCADE. YOU WILL REGRET IT!!!

I think it’s both.

When I fixed the flipper throw, the wide shots became mushy. Doesn’t happen on an original.

The remake flippers remind me of spooky flippers.

Someone needs to send a protractor to Lyman. I hear he’s got a nice original AFM!

As I've watched this thread - with photos and measurements - and played my own HUO Monster Bash, I'm starting to think the "throw" isn't as wildly different as I thought it was (though still shorter than it should be), but the "feel" argument can't just be discarded. They DO "feel" different because they ARE different - they are more like Spooky flippers where they get soft at the end of the stroke. It's pretty clear to me, and the other players I've had over at my place. They are mushy at the end of the stroke, and just aren't as snappy with any of the shots.

It's like trying to explain to joe Pesci why he's a funny guy.

I was wondering if maybe Boag had come around on AFM after all these years...

Pinball?

Kinda like cars!!!

(except in almost every single way possible)

And why are Spooky and the remakes so sloppy at the end of their stroke?