In before remake defenders! Subscribed.

really interesting, thanks for sharing.
The remake are based on the emulated software (the same you have on your Pinball Arcade on your IOS... and the VpinMame) and have different current/time frequency and else. I'm not surprised at all.
So the remakeis the same layout for sure, built with quality screen and speakers... but it's not the same gameplay.
For me, a real remake was the BBB, same hardware, same parts, same game. period.

I think you bring up valid points but ultimately many people will not have a side by side comparison nor have the skill or aptitude to notice the differences.

Like many things in life I think it comes down to trade offs. I have the Special Edition of all 3 remakes and I’m very happy with my purchases. Can the experience be slightly different in areas when matched one for one with the original build, sure, but I have a great time playing them all the same. Many of my guest gravitate towards them and love them as well. I feel the upgraded screen and sound make it hard to justify the cost delta between a brand new remake and a HUO version or restored example.

Always appreciate perspective. Nice write up.

The flipper travel is problem for older flippers too, in case you have to buy a new bracket for flippers (C-16103-R/L) - they don't allow as much travel as original parts B-13104-L and B-13104-R and then one has to bend the bracket in order to get greater travel.

Have a look e.g. here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/proper-replacement-part-for-wpc95-flipper-base-assembly#post-4222354

Somebody should start manufacturing proper flipper brackets for WPC-95 machines as well!

I kinda wish you kept it a bit longer and took out the flipper assemble from both games to really compared all the bits and pieces. A few MM difference in plunger length or coil stop height can really change the throw of the the flipper. Even better, put in the original mech into the remake for comparison.

AFM is one of my favorite games too and I would never replace my original with one of the remakes. They don't play the same that is for sure, thou the remakes are still fun, not the same experience for sure.

WPC is hardware based flippers while CGC is software (via emulation) based. All the software based games (JJP most notably) have delayed action flippers that seem a bit mushy.

Turning up the power on my DI solved most of the issues for people but I don't think there's a solution for the CGC games.

Just about every pin is going to play differently; that is comparing original vs original or remake vs remake or remake vs. original. Mechanical part wear over time changes gameplay in subtle ways which is one of the great things (IMHO) about playing on a physical machine.

That said, you are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I have played and repaired MB and MM, both originals and remakes. I preferred the snappier play of a new remake to that of a 'broken in' original but that is just me. I don't think the remakes are deficient in any way, and I am not directing this to you personally but if people want to think so or say so to feel better about owning an original go right ahead!

My MBrLE only flips like the original because the flipper power is set higher, which means the orbits are killer fast when hit, which is the same as OG MB, but the direct shots to Frank, the scoop, and Tomb Treasure target are brutally fast, making airballs the major result, so bad that the dimples due to the airballs is like dropping 10000 pachinko balls from 20 feet onto the playfield. Shots to the ramps are harder to hit because the "sweet spot" has moved closer to the tip, and it is not as predictable as OG MB. Now, this being said, I've made it through a double MOR game and I have no real issues with how it plays, but the airballs are brutal... I've seen balls come off Franks feet and land all the way up in the Mummy's face, and most times land on the right and left return ramps, or are ricocheted into the purple Electrode flashers (busting their tops off) but the chaos during multiball feels about the same as OG MB. I don't have a OG to compare to for rest position or full stroke position.

I think there will always be a place for both. I’ve only been into pinball for about 5 to 6 years now. I went to TPF for three consecutive years before it was cancelled these last two, and I found myself each time playing more AFM by far than any other game each time. I love this pin, but it was just out of reach for me at the time. When the remakes came out they had them at TPF and I played them like crazy too. It was the same theme in every way, but the feel was indeed different.

When the time came when I could afford to buy one, I sincerely struggled over finding a good condition original or a pre-owned LE. For a multitude of reasons, even though I was strongly leaning towards an original, I went with the LE remake.

I love this pin, and don’t know if I would ever sell it. Then again, I’m new to pinball so I don’t have the nostalgia that comes with having experience with the original. Also, I will never be a tournament player, so having mastered the feel for the original setup is not an issue with me either.

I think as long as you approach the topic from the perspective that the remake is not intended to be a replacement to the original, but that it opens the opportunity for a few thousand others to experience the fun of owning the title with many of the modern advancements, then it is hard to go wrong either way based on what you prefer.

Earlier AFM remakes had "problems" with the flippers, and I'm not being intentionally vague, I'm just forgetting specifically what that problem was since I traded out my AFMr over 18 months ago. But the problem was well known by CGC to the point there was a 2.0 board in place for later builds. You could also test if your AFMr flippers had the problem by turning the flipper power way down to a certain level, and if the flippers were responding to the setting or not. I know the flippers on mine ended up going dead on third owner of the machine. I also had a MBr until recently and those flippers always felt fine, where the AFMr ones never felt right.

Of course this doesn't explain all your issues/preferences, but early AFMrs had weak flippers that would take a lot of dialing in, if not outright fixing/replacing. Maybe someone else out there remembers what I'm talking about.

BTW, just wanted to point out that this has been discussed before and if you want some good reading on this just refer to this thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals

TL:DR - the OP stated he measured 'flipper delay' with an electrical device and measured latency of 1 to 4.5ms of delay compared to an original. 4ms is lightning fast. I find the topic interesting because I am also a PC gamer and the discussion of perceptible framerates above 120fps comes up again and again as does input latency on controllers or gaming on a CRT versus an LCD panel. Some people will swear up and down they can tell the difference. I would never think to tell someone what they can and can't perceive. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

EDIT: Sorry, I know the OP here is talking about flipper adjustment and not delay.

Yep everyone has their opinion for sure, I like the look of the new machine and I was fully prepared to buy a new one as it is one of my favorites, but when I played it just didn't like it as much. I am one of those top competitive players like Levi, and I am all about the playability and not the bling, and in my opinion both MMR and AFMR fell a little short for me, thou they are still great games and have no issue in playing either of them, I would just rather play a broken ass original lol... In saying that mine has lightning flippers and big ass rubbers on the left ramp which makes it probably less enjoyable anyway for most people.

Played 2 different AFMr's and 1 original AFM in the span of a week once. The remakes had NO backhandable shots and cradling was next to impossible because the stroke ended so early. Everything was a forehand shot. Couldn't even backhand the scoop from the right flipper. Earliest flip that wasn't a post pass went up to the ship. Both AFMr's.

The original AFM on location had half the GI out and was in a dark bar and I lit that game up because the flippers extended further and you could trap and backhand shots.

Haven't played an original MM in a long time to make a comparison to the MMr's I've played, same with MB/MBr.

Had lots of discussions about this.

For me the difference in the remake flippers and a good original game is night and day.

I am also amazed that many people really can't tell the difference.

It's the reason I never bought a remake and went for nice originals.

Of all the remakes, I feel MB is the best for being closest to OG only due to how if "feels" when I play it. MMr and AFMr are decent shooters, but I have had my best games of all time on those titles only on OG equipment. Now for MBr, I had never made it to MOR but 1 time on OG MB back in the 90's but that was because I only had limited access to one at Dave and Busters in Cincinnati and that was a 100 mile round trip to go play. Since owning a MBrLE, I have not regretted the purchase because as far as my feeble old man skills are these days, I am still able to make it rock and roll. Not sure how long it will take to get to Lyman's Lament without a flipper code though...

I will add, the right (and left) flippers do not extend to the original OG MB up position, because I remember being able to backhand both Creature and the right Bride ramp on OG MB, on the remake, not so much, I can get a slow roller to backhand the right ramp, but backhanding Creature is a complete no go. A backhand left ramp WAS possible on OG MB, but just barely, and on MBr, its even more rare, and mostly impossible.

I have observed the same, MBr seems to have much improved flippers vs MMr and AFMr and I was curious if it was my own anecdotal observation. Anyone else feel this way too?

All 3 of those are lined up side by side at the local arcade (when it is open) and the flippers on MMr and AFMr drive me nuts. However lots of other people seem to play it just fine, but it has never felt the "same" as the originals to me.

Back in November I decided I finally wanted to buy my favorite game, AFM. I had never played the remake, but of course had hundreds of games played on the original. I drove about an hour last fall to play a SE and decide which I want. When I first saw it, I must say it looks stunning. Very bright art and the oversized DMD was impressive. However, by ball 2 I knew it wasn't the same. I noticed the flipper feel like OP, but to me what seemed really off were the orbits. They just felt loose. Like a ball going in would kind of rattle around and die out coming around the other side. Sometimes it seemed they went in smooth and came out loose. I played about 10 games on it and knew it was not for me. I fortunately brought home an excellent Bally last weekend. The orbits rip lightning fast, and it's easy to backhand the lobster ramp as well as scoop. I think for someone new to the hobby or someone who hasn't played the original a ton the remake would be just fine.

Blast from the past here... I do recall after MMR released participating in lengthy threads concerning spongy flippers, raised front levelers as compensation, etc.

After playing CGC remakes, along with AP games, owning a WOZ for 6 years, playing all the other JJPs, and currently owning two Spooky games, I'm firmly convinced the only good way to drive WMS flipper assemblies is with proper dual-wound coils and WMS fliptronics boards with their big fat TIP36C transistors. All this modern substitute shit just doesn't cut it.

https://www.flippers.be/images/wpc/fliptronics1.jpg

That is how you drive flippers.

Still have my OG AFM and frankly, Levi, you'd be nuts to swap for the remake.

I have a MMr and it playes exact the same as the original WMS that i had.

I had issues with MMr flippers on location being spongy af. I swore I would never own a remake due to the crappy flipper quality. I ended up buying an AFMr and I changed the flipper travel like you did. All the loop shots are quick/makeable, as well as ramps being "backhand-able."

I'm not sure if there's a difference in the manufacturing date, but, I swore I would never buy a remake due to the flippers. I have owned and tweaked this AFMr and I have to say it shoots really well and I'm extremely happy to be proven wrong. I wouldn't trade my crispy remake for a player's quality original at this point.

From the title I thought this topic would be about the d-bags flipping their remakes for a profit. Not very smart to pay over MSRP for a non-original, mass-produced remake of something, but it's occurring.

This makes me feel a little more sane because after getting MBr, I argued with my brother up and down that the flippers were not extending enough. It's damn near impossible to cradle a ball because they sit so low. We messed with the EOS and everything but it's never felt "right" to me, but perhaps it's that reproduction flipper base someone mentioned above?

Just bend the [thing that Levi talks about below].

It would be good if some kind owners of original games would post pics of their flippers when in the resting position and when energized (from MM, AFM and MB), so that we remake owners could try to adjust our flippers correspondingly.

how do you bend the coil stop? it's solid steel. I'm not saying you can't, but how? and even if you do, then doesn't the stop rivot sit at an angle, rather than flat? also, how do you guarantee you bend each flipper's stop the exact same distance, so their stroke is uniform? a lot of questions, i know. but genuinely curious about all of those things.

My MMr and MBr play just fine to me. Not sure where I'd find originals to compare to, but since I have no comparisons, I'm good. Ain't gonna go looking for issues.

Would it be more consistent to grind off a few MM off each plunger? That way there is more travel without bending stuff by eye and a bit easier to get them to mirror each other.

Old flipper mechs are flogged out giving you a longer stroke. The bracket bends, the plunger and coil stop mushroom and this gives you a longer stroke usually with the impression that you can aim and catch better.

People are comparing a 20 year old flogged out mech to a 3 or 4 year old newer version. Also my experience tells me that a lot of flipper mechs are not assembled proplery in their machine. On top of that, the remakes have a different flipper controll system. The flippers would definitely feel different.

Levi - so when the flippers are down are they in-line with the inlanes?

Neil.

I can't believe that people can not feel the difference between the remakes and the originals. It isn't even close. The remakes have that spongy, late-flipping feel like Spooky and JJP machines. No comparison to the Bally/Williams feel. Originals all the way for me. Others are either in denial or haven't played enough games on the 90s machines.

The bending-of-the-rest-plate trick is also how you get perfectly even flippers at both rest and extension positions. You want to FIRST adjust them to be perfectly even at extension (when up) at whatever angle you prefer, then you can slightly bend the bracket to make the at-rest positions exactly even as well. Bending the bracket compensates for slight differences in plunger/coil stop/link sizes.

When adjusting the flippers "up" position, you want to use your finger to push the flipper plunger into the coil, mimicking the way the coil pulls it in. If you simply raise and hold the flipper itself, slop in the link/pawl causes it to raise further than it does if the coil pulls it in and that will mess up your positioning.

And if any of those people also have an 8th grader, steal their protractor and determine the total angle of travel at rest and when flipped. I’d like to know the delta between the originals and the remakes. That could make this very easy to understand for many.

I have all 3 of the CGC remakes, they all definitely have shorter throws when the flippers are fully extended compared to the originals. Makes it a real challenge to consistently trap the ball. Out of the 3 only my MMrLE has that soft spongy flipper feel that I’m not big fan of. Thanks for the great tip, I’m going to make some adjustments to mine and see how it goes.

Not denying anything, but MBr is closer to OG than the other two remakes, and if you adjust them as CrazyLevi has pointed out, they are even closer. The OG B/W Fliptronic circuit is way better than the remakes, I think this is because a physical EOS switch and parallel wound coils has always been the superior design. Pat Lawlor said the Stern solution back in the early days of post B/W made it insignificant and dismissed it because he was shilling for Stern and his PLDS designs for them. I have never met a real player who has said ANY other design from any other manufacturer was as good or better, and I agree. Nothing is as snappy and consistent as B/W flippers from the golden days of Fliptronics. I asked Steve Richie at the last TPF in 2019 how does one design a table to compensate for loss of flipper strength as game times increase and his answer was priceless... "Always start your design with hot coils." So they always expect flipper strength to start stronger and end up weaker during gameplay, I asked why they didn't put cooling fans on the flipper coils and he said they did on the Hyperball launcher but that was just to keep the thing from melting down. For regular flippers, the cost outweighs the benefit.

If you bend the brackets you will have to re align the flipper bats. Also remember that the remakes have the CGC menu and you can adjust the flipper strength.

This is the real reason for the “mushy” flippers.

Can you believe that I've played the originals maybe 10x for MM and 5x for MB? And that was years and years ago.

I have owned all. The remakes don’t play as well. The playfields have really soft wood and geometry is off. Yes the speakers and display is nice but the originals are night and day different on game play. Great comparison by the OP. I have owned both side by side. MMr was much closer to the original then every game the gap widens with MBr being the widest.

I previously owned MBr for a few months and thought the flippers felt good. MMr's I've played have felt pretty off; AFMr's ok, but still not quite right. Mix of homes, routes and shows. YMMV

People can have different opinions. That is how life works. To me, the important thing is you love pinball and you have fun playing. Some people coming into the hobby weren't even alive in the 90's. Maybe they never even played an original.

In denial? Really? Who even cares?

This 100%. All your OG MB, MM and AFM have older flipper parts that have been flipped 100k + times. 14k plays is around a million flips so prob more flips on those parts. Each time they flip the plunger hits the coil stop and grinds off a tiny amount of metal (black dust) and shortens the stop and plunger and over time the plunger and coil stop have shortened giving the idea it has a longer stroke. Rebuild your OG flipper mechs and they will have the same up and down stroke as the remakes.

Have to admit - I owned an original beat up AFM which I did a complete restore on including new PF and all new flipper mechs, and it felt COMPLETELY different than the original. Then I owned an AFMRle and it felt much closer to the restored original than it did to the unrestored original.

Moral to the story - if you like the way your original AFM plays, dont touch it! If you restore it, it's going to be like an AFMr for better or worse.

I rebuilt the flippers on every WMS game I got back in the day; they all played like new. Replaced the plunger, link, pawl, spring and coil stop. They all played better than current remake flippers.