(Topic ID: 291468)

It's Time to Talk About CGC / Remake Flippers

By CrazyLevi

6 months ago


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  • 425 posts
  • 79 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by Peak-Pin
  • Topic is favorited by 30 Pinsiders

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There are 425 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 9.
#401 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Maybe you could plot sloppy-ness over time for various machines and get back to us on that...

If I had saved the screen shots in a CSV (comma separated values) format, I could have done that. Sorry, just grabbed a png file...

#402 5 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Haven't looked into that, other than it appears to be pulsed. I'd have to dig in and add more probes (i.e. is the driver transistor or MOSFET really being pulsed? What's the supply voltage doing?). Here's a closeup, with what I think it the EOS kicking in.
There's a lot of other design reasons that could be related to the two different designs being different (slower transistors, some capacitance somewhere, different threshold voltages if it's a MOSTFET, gate capacitance, etc.).
I'm not going to do this, but it would be interesting to model in Spice (used for transient simulations) if the models were accurate. Modeling the solenoid would take some doing, since the inductance and Q would change as the core moves. Prior to retiring a few moths ago, I use to do all my designs w/RF simulation software, some really crazy high-end CAE tools. Almost scary the level of accuracy I could achieve up into the GHz range or at high power levels (>1KW) if I made the models correctly. No doubt an overkill for a 'flipper' discussion.
Sorry for being a little too technical, hard to break that habit after designing for 30+ years.
[quoted image]

This is pretty cool. I'm not sure what the timing is though from the way it is plotted by your scope. The voltage is pretty constant so the current probably is a better measure of flipper power. It would be interesting to see how this changes with heating and differences between games.

#403 5 months ago

RMs have better lighting , great cabinets, play fields, and their LCD screens are 100% better. Flippers work very well. That’s why
most people prefer them. I think it’s great for the 10-20 people that have excellent originals, but in the last 12 years I haven’t
found a great original of the 3 RMs I bought.

#404 5 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

This is pretty cool. I'm not sure what the timing is though from the way it is plotted by your scope. The voltage is pretty constant so the current probably is a better measure of flipper power. It would be interesting to see how this changes with heating and differences between games.

The scope was set to trigger on a 'rising edge' set at 11.2mV. Since the current probe spits out 1mV per 0.1A, it's triggering at 1.12A - just an arbitrary value I chose above the noise floor. The second plot is about where the scope triggered on the overall trace.

I didn't trigger off the flipper button, some transistor pin, etc. Was just looking for the high current pulse to start the sweep in order to see the pulse shape.

It would be interesting to look at a coil w/my FLIR and remeasure, but I don't want to get too off topic (CGC vs. original flippers). That's for another thread.

But it is interesting (to me anyways), to see the difference between manufactures.

Now I just need to find a CGC pin to measure.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#405 5 months ago
Quoted from Banker:

RMs have better lighting , great cabinets, play fields, and their LCD screens are 100% better. Flippers work very well. That’s why
most people prefer them. I think it’s great for the 10-20 people that have excellent originals, but in the last 12 years I haven’t
found a great original of the 3 RMs I bought.

Come to Michigan...we have some. You may not be convinced that they're better, but you'll notice a real difference for certain.

#406 5 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

But be rest assured, based on the weekly Top 100, and overwhelemingly the opinions of most pinball owners, the three CGC re-makes are vastly preferred over the originals.

But remember, remake owners have possibly had years of 5G exposure from the emulation boards.

If those waves can create viruses, think of the synaptic remapping they could do with prolonged close range exposure.

It would be like asking a Cat Lady how many cats a person should have.

#407 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It would be like asking a Cat Lady how many cats a person should have.

Thats like asking a pinhead how many pinball machines a person should have... it works both ways

#408 5 months ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Just tackled this thread today...

May I respectfully request that you redo these measurements, this time making sure that the corner of the protractor is actually up against the flipper shaft? If the shaft is really where you indicate, no wonder the flippers are wonky! Normally it's right in the middle of the semicircle at the end of the bat.
Also note the protractor has itself moved considerably between these photos, as I point out at the 55 degree mark and with the circles. A little scotch tape does wonders.
Not cropping off any portion of the bat or the protractor would be helpful in the analysis, as well.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Hmm, I did it by feel and the protractors were butted against the shaft. However, since the part is hidden by the flipper, now I'm wondering if I was actually butted against the sleeve that may extend up through the playfield some. I'll have to double check and report back. While this may change the angle slightly, I did use the same process for each of my 3 pins (AFMr, Getaway, and Stern JP) and they all delivered the same results. Regardless, I will remeasure for accuracy purposes.

Update: Okay, here is what I discovered. Indeed the sleeve was what I was butting up against instead of the flipper shaft itself. However, I was unable to lift the flipper high enough to expose the shaft without loosening it, which I did not want to do. Therefore, I made the 1/4 larger in the corner of the protractor to accommodate the sleeve size and what I now measure is 47 degrees instead of 50. This was consistent for both flippers, and again the same on my other games. Therefore, if you are going to measure the throw angle determine if you are actually butted against the shaft or against the sleeve so everyone is aware of the relative measurements.

-2
#409 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

So question for robin
Does nuking your own post like this also nuke the downvotes from your accrued total? Inquiring minds want to know...
BTW FFH, you tellingly left "gameplay" out of your list

I'm so sorry. Gameplay in the re-makes is vastly superior. Sorry about that.

#410 5 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

The scope was set to trigger on a 'rising edge' set at 11.2mV. Since the current probe spits out 1mV per 0.1A, it's triggering at 1.12A - just an arbitrary value I chose above the noise floor. The second plot is about where the scope triggered on the overall trace.
I didn't trigger off the flipper button, some transistor pin, etc. Was just looking for the high current pulse to start the sweep in order to see the pulse shape.
It would be interesting to look at a coil w/my FLIR and remeasure, but I don't want to get too off topic (CGC vs. original flippers). That's for another thread.
But it is interesting (to me anyways), to see the difference between manufactures.
Now I just need to find a CGC pin to measure.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Thanks but was asking about the timing. Usually it is in ms/div or something but your scope doesn't seem to have any grid lines printed. How much time is represented on the screen? If you have a second channel it would be interesting to show coil voltage also.

#411 5 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

I'm so sorry. Gameplay in the re-makes is vastly superior. Sorry about that.

You ranked every remake a perfect 10. According to you DP is 3.2, TZ is 2.7, and TWD is 5.33. Thanks for enlightening the discussion.

#412 5 months ago

Stern may make the best flippers, but their actual games are...well..hit or miss at best. Maybe they can all trade secrets and everyone will benefit.

#413 5 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

I'm so sorry. Gameplay in the re-makes is vastly superior. Sorry about that.

I played both, debating which one to buy. I bought a Bally last month that's beautiful. I posted earlier in this thread it's not just the flippers, something is off with the orbits as well. I have super smooth orbits that place the ball exactly where it should be on the flipper. I never got that same feel from the remakes

#414 5 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

Thanks but was asking about the timing. Usually it is in ms/div or something but your scope doesn't seem to have any grid lines printed. How much time is represented on the screen? If you have a second channel it would be interesting to show coil voltage also.

Ah...gotcha.

20mS/div. 16 total divisions. Windows SnipIt must mute the dots a bit or maybe when pasting into pinside. I did go in and lighten up the image a bit (below). Better?

I had to measure NGG during a friends lunch break at home, so I didn't want to wear out my welcome since I didn't want him pushing the time window. Just clamp on the correct flipper wire, measure, and take off. So no voltage this time.

pasted_image (resized).png

#415 5 months ago
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:

I played both, debating which one to buy. I bought a Bally last month that's beautiful. I posted earlier in this thread it's not just the flippers, something is off with the orbits as well. I have super smooth orbits that place the ball exactly where it should be on the flipper. I never got that same feel from the remakes

Be realistic, the flow of every single game off the line is different in some manner. Of course it's going to feel different it is 30 years later with different material made by a different company. They are still great regardless.

#416 5 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Be realistic, the flow of every single game off the line is different in some manner. Of course it's going to feel different it is 30 years later with different material made by a different company. They are still great regardless.

Just calling it like I'm seeing it. I played the absolute hell out of AFM long before Chicago gaming existed. That's including many different games as I've never owned it until last month. I can tell a difference, but I can also see how someone new to the hobby doesn't have the same experience I have. There's nothing wrong with that at all, just my opinion. I do love the look of the remake, but when I was ready to buy I just didn't feel I would personally be happy with the remake.

#417 5 months ago
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:

Just calling it like I'm seeing it. I played the absolute hell out of AFM long before Chicago gaming existed. That's including many different games as I've never owned it until last month. I can tell a difference, but I can also see how someone new to the hobby doesn't have the same experience I have. There's nothing wrong with that at all, just my opinion. I do love the look of the remake, but when I was ready to buy I just didn't feel I would personally be happy with the remake.

Doesn't even have to be new to the hobby. I've been in the hobby for over 25 years, and I never played MB at all, or an AFM or MM that wasn't trashed. If your only experience with some games (especially those 3) are heavily routed trashed games who's flippers barely work, rubbers broke etc....these are amazing by comparison.

#418 5 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Doesn't even have to be new to the hobby. I've been in the hobby for over 25 years, and I never played MB at all, or an AFM or MM that wasn't trashed. If your only experience with some games (especially those 3) are heavily routed trashed games who's flippers barely work, rubbers broke etc....these are amazing by comparison.

How can you make a comparison then if you've only played trashed originals?

#419 5 months ago
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:

How can you make a comparison then if you've only played trashed originals?

I'm not making a comparison(even though I used the expression). I'm saying that people are WAY overthinking it. Echoing what others have said we all know they don't play 100% the same, but no game does, not even from the same batches. The flippers do what they are supposed to do in the remakes and feel different or not, I would completely take the new shiny ones over the older ones for the same price. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'being new to the hobby' as so many people keep repeating. There are 100's if not thousands of experienced people who own and are happy with the remakes. JMO.

#420 5 months ago

I'm starting to think I need to re-read the Pinside by-laws... seems there is an actual legal requirement to rehash the Coke vs. Pepsi argument every 10 posts in this thread. Getting a little stale after the 230th post on why remakes suck and OG equipment is the ONLY real versions of the game... can we get to some actual measurable differences first before we start taking sides again? I am here for the flipper science, not the psychology lesson and arm waving on why which one is better than the other, I could not care less.

-5
#421 5 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

You ranked every remake a perfect 10. According to you DP is 3.2, TZ is 2.7, and TWD is 5.33. Thanks for enlightening the discussion.

Am I allowed to rank machines the way I see fit? Or shall I ask for your permission before expressing a personal opinion? Thank YOU for enlightening the discussion with your negative energy. I will not waste my time looking at your ratings as I could care less what you think. Right, The Walking Dead. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The re-makes DESERVE perfect ratings, thank you very much. TZ is convoluted. I owned it, and the television show it is based on is my #1 favorite of all-time.

#422 5 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I'm not making a comparison(even though I used the expression). I'm saying that people are WAY overthinking it. Echoing what others have said we all know they don't play 100% the same, but no game does, not even from the same batches. The flippers do what they are supposed to do in the remakes and feel different or not, I would completely take the new shiny ones over the older ones for the same price. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'being new to the hobby' as so many people keep repeating. There are 100's if not thousands of experienced people who own and are happy with the remakes. JMO.

Brilliant. I couldn't agree more. The flippers serve the machine they were built for, not the originals.

#423 5 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

You keep repeating this as if it’s meaningful. There are also many flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. Many of those people are wrong.
The number of people that believe something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not.
If the ‘flipper difference’ issue is to be settled, first it has to be identified. A specific claim made, articulated in a way that can be investigated and shown to be accurate or inaccurate. After the claim is made, then measurements can be made and published.
Until such a claim is made the likely response to any finding will be ‘that’s not the difference I was talking about’.

Correct. Likewise the tiny minority surfacing on THIS thread have no monopoly on taste nor on mechanical perception. I am well aware of the fallacy of consensus much as I am about the subjective views of a few on this thread. In any case I'd like to think most pinsiders and game owners have some understanding of what they are talking about.

#424 5 months ago

I have been loosely following this thread and I am wonder if you think the difference could be in the origin of the voltage? One being an SMPS and the other being a transformer.

2 months later
#425 3 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Ah...gotcha.
20mS/div. 16 total divisions. Windows SnipIt must mute the dots a bit or maybe when pasting into pinside. I did go in and lighten up the image a bit (below). Better?
I had to measure NGG during a friends lunch break at home, so I didn't want to wear out my welcome since I didn't want him pushing the time window. Just clamp on the correct flipper wire, measure, and take off. So no voltage this time.
[quoted image]

Just FYI, the fliptronics system uses an unfiltered power supply (ie. pulsating DC (120Hz) with practically no filter capacitor). So you will see a pulse every 8-ish milliseconds when loaded. It is not PWM.

There are 425 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 9.

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