(Topic ID: 291468)

It's Time to Talk About CGC / Remake Flippers

By CrazyLevi

7 months ago


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  • 425 posts
  • 79 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Peak-Pin
  • Topic is favorited by 31 Pinsiders

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There are 425 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 9.
#351 7 months ago

Could it simply be that the software and circuits/board set differences are the culprits?

It appears to me that the flipper parts between completely rebuilding a new set of flippers on an OG and the ones from a remake are identical. Is that not the case?

#352 7 months ago
Quoted from TomKatt:

This is a good example of the differences in technology - for all of the benefits that modern electronics provide (adjustable coil strength, etc), there is no feedback loop indicating movement or position....

Good point about no feedback. I mentioned all my 'high power flipper' measurements were in the ~50mSec range which really surprised me (being that short). As you pointed out, the variable 'time' is taken out of the equation if a EOS was used in an older pin since the EOS is the feedback loop.

My Houdini can use EOS, but in the end, the pulse is still likely under some sort of software control.

#353 7 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Is it impossible to retrofit original W/B flipper assemblies to the CGC remakes?

Really, you'd need a nice beefy transformer, and a small circuit board to convert the voltage to pure DC

The mechs themselves seem to be the same

#354 7 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Could it simply be that the software and circuits/board set differences are the culprits?
It appears to me that the flipper parts between completely rebuilding a new set of flippers on an OG and the ones from a remake are identical. Is that not the case?

::chuckleswithacertainknowingsmile::

You know, no one's even thought to bring that up, yet.

And just so you know, I am not trying to be insulting to you *at all*. Just amused at the way the wheel keeps spinning around, yeah?

#355 7 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

::chuckleswithacertainknowingsmile::
You know, no one's even thought to bring that up, yet.
And just so you know, I am not trying to be insulting to you *at all*. Just amused at the way the wheel keeps spinning around, yeah?

It’s crazy to me that this thread is so large when that’s the pretty obvious reason.

#356 7 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Could it simply be that the software and circuits/board set differences are the culprits?

It hasn’t yet been established there is a culprit. So far we just have some educated guesses on what might be different and/or how we might test different things.

The acceleration plot seems the most likely to show if there is a difference IMO.

#357 7 months ago

Well if the flipper parts are all the same then it has to be what’s driving them.

I don’t notice a difference, but those with more fines tuned experience with OG games, I believe them when they say there’s a different feel. The board set and coding is the only difference between the two.

#358 7 months ago

We've discussed what is driving them to some point, but what we lack is real data that shows the results of how they are driven. Starting to get a little there with recent posts, but the main challenge seems to be there is no one person in on this conversation with access to both versions of the pin and the equipment/know how to take the comparative measurements.

#359 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

That's great info (and a really cool image). It would be nice if you could try that same set up on a couple of your other machines, especially one that does have a flipper power adjustment. Even trying it on your Black Hole might be useful (to see how the "old-school" stuff compares)...

Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

...Starting to get a little there with recent posts, but the main challenge seems to be there is no one person in on this conversion with access to both versions of the pin and the equipment/know how to take the comparative measurements.

I'll have access to a NGG sometime this week, I'll measure that just for the heck of it. Still no original vs. CGCr remake tho.

Wizards World (aka Fort Wayne Pinball) is just down the road from me, but I doubt they'd want someone just wandering in with a scope to take measurements (despite just being a 'clamp on' measurement). They may recognize my face, but they don't know my engineering background.

#360 6 months ago

I would think that the flippers on NGG would essentially be the same as an original MM or MB.

I will try to buy a scope at some point that I can use to test on my WH20 and MBr. It just may be a while, as I will be out of town for a while.

#361 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I would think that the flippers on NGG would essentially be the same as an original MM or MB.
I will try to buy a scope at some point that I can use to test on my WH20 and MBr. It just may be a while, as I will be out of town for a while.

After I posted that...I remembered the originials weren't CGC (duh)...so maybe I just need to find a remake then (like you mentioned).

#362 6 months ago

I don’t think the remakes are PWM controlled. That technique is generally used on single wound coils, like Stern

I believe the remakes are using digital timing to switch from the power to hold, similar to Fliptronics with the difference being the end user can alter the timing (ie higher initial time for the power before switching to hold = more powerful flipper)

I say this mainly because why would they need to use PWM when they have two transistors to handle the job. Stern uses PWM and a single coil because it’s cheaper to build (more complicated to get the “feel” right and balance it with heat issues, but Stern is very experienced at this technique now - although some games still have issues)

-6
#363 6 months ago

Geez. To each his own. I've owned the "originals" of all three and now have the CGC LE re-makes of the trio. The re-makes BLOW AWAY the originals, the miniscule flipper length argument notwithstanding. The new machines are dazzling, magnificent, sublime, advanced, immersive, technologically light years ahead, and the build quality is superlative.

I buy machines to play but also to behold the art, the sound, the lighting and the special honor of owning a mint machine.

The new MONSTER BASH is so vastly improved that one has to wonder who could possibly prefer owning or playing on the old one. It's like preferring a 1963 Mustang with 250,000 miles to a brand new 1978 Camaro to give just one of endless comparisons.

#364 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

It's like preferring a 1963 Mustang with 250,000 miles to a brand new 1978 Camaro to give just one of endless comparisons.

Umm...if you have a 1963 Mustang, I'd like to buy it - regardless of it's mileage.

#365 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

It's like preferring a 1963 Mustang with 250,000 miles to a brand new 1978 Camaro to give just one of endless comparisons.

Lol - the '78 Camaro sucked. I would prefer to to remake them new.

But I understand what you're trying to say. And "to each his own", it seems the OP had both and was dissatisfied for some reason. I've not had the pleasure to experience the remake, so I'm just along for the nerd stuff.

#366 6 months ago

Pinball?

Kinda like cars!!!

(except in almost every single way possible)

#367 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pinball?
Kinda like cars!!!
(except in almost every single way possible)

Well, they both have locks on the doors for one thing.

#368 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

Well, they both have locks on the doors for one thing.

And people argue endlessly about them, too...

#369 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

And people argue endlessly about them, too...

And some think their paint colors are beautiful, when they are really quite atrocious.

#370 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Umm...if you have a 1963 Mustang, I'd like to buy it - regardless of it's mileage.

Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

Geez. To each his own. I've owned the "originals" of all three and now have the CGC LE re-makes of the trio. The re-makes BLOW AWAY the originals, the miniscule flipper length argument notwithstanding. The new machines are dazzling, magnificent, sublime, advanced, immersive, technologically light years ahead, and the build quality is superlative.
I buy machines to play but also to behold the art, the sound, the lighting and the special honor of owning a mint machine.
The new MONSTER BASH is so vastly improved that one has to wonder who could possibly prefer owning or playing on the old one. It's like preferring a 1963 Mustang with 250,000 miles to a brand new 1978 Camaro to give just one of endless comparisons.

Just in case you guys aren't joking... The Mustang was not released in 63. Back to flipper pulsing stroker talk.

#371 6 months ago
Quoted from DudeRegular:

Just in case you guys aren't joking... The Mustang was not released in 63. Back to flipper pulsing stroker talk.

BS, I keep one next to my '83 'Vette!

#372 6 months ago
Quoted from Grandnational007:

BS, I keep one next to my '83 'Vette!

Ah the classic 83 split window. Nice!

#373 6 months ago
Quoted from DudeRegular:

Just in case you guys aren't joking... The Mustang was not released in 63. Back to flipper pulsing stroker talk.

Yes, that was my point...if he has a '63 Mustang, I'd be very impressed. When I was 4, my family was in a freak accident that totaled my Dad's new '64 Mustang. Fortunately, none of us were injured, and my Dad then bought a '65 replacement that we had for many years.

#374 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Yes, that was my point...if he has a '63 Mustang, I'd be very impressed. When I was 4, my family was in a freak accident that totaled my Dad's new '64 Mustang. Fortunately, none of us were injured, and my Dad then bought a '65 replacement that we had for many years.

1964 1/2

#375 6 months ago
Quoted from Grandnational007:

BS, I keep one next to my '83 'Vette!

Well, there is one '83...

#376 6 months ago

Yeah, my Dad always referred to it as his '64. He died still pissed about that car. He had ordered it just the way he wanted, and when it was destroyed he had to settle for what was now available "on hand", and it was not nearly as nice (or even the same color).

#377 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

The new MONSTER BASH is so vastly improved that one has to wonder who could possibly prefer owning or playing on the old one.

I would, if, indeed, I wanted to buy a MB, which I don't, and never have. It's the same story for me with all three CGC remakes. I absolutely agree with you on the packaging of the things, especially the aesthetics: really, I do. But for me, and many, many others, the play of the thing is always, always, *A-L-W-A-Y-S* going to be the primary component of what makes any machine great. Unfortunately, because of the flipper issues with the CGC remakes, it's just too far a leap for me.

Would I buy one for a bargain basement price that I couldn't pass up or ignore? Of course, but that's *any* machine for me. I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that I wouldn't hold onto it, though...the "wrongness" would not be something I could ignore, and would prevent me from truly enjoying the title the way it was originally designed to be, and the way I know it *should* play.

As you rightfully said: to each his own. That does not in any way discount or dismiss the reality and truth of the argument.

#378 6 months ago
Quoted from DudeRegular:

Just in case you guys aren't joking... The Mustang was not released in 63. Back to flipper pulsing stroker talk.

LOL, I was close on the release date, but of course I was trying to make a comparitive point.

Touche.

#379 6 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

I would, if, indeed, I wanted to buy a MB, which I don't, and never have. It's the same story for me with all three CGC remakes. I absolutely agree with you on the packaging of the things, especially the aesthetics: really, I do. But for me, and many, many others, the play of the thing is always, always, *A-L-W-A-Y-S* going to be the primary component of what makes any machine great. Unfortunately, because of the flipper issues with the CGC remakes, it's just too far a leap for me.
Would I buy one for a bargain basement price that I couldn't pass up or ignore? Of course, but that's *any* machine for me. I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that I wouldn't hold onto it, though...the "wrongness" would not be something I could ignore, and would prevent me from truly enjoying the title the way it was originally designed to be, and the way I know it *should* play.
As you rightfully said: to each his own. That does not in any way discount or dismiss the reality and truth of the argument.

I think the Top 100 list should be factored into the "many, many, many" people response you offer here. Pinside voters by a wide margin rate the re-make higher than the original for all sorts of reasons. The matter of the slightly shorter flipper is also a matter of personal taste. Obviously, many, many, many feel it is negligible.

#380 6 months ago

I'm happy my Mustang release date gaffe is generating so much conversation!

#381 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pinball?
Kinda like cars!!!
(except in almost every single way possible)

You missed my point Crazy Levi. But that's fine.

#382 6 months ago
Quoted from TomKatt:

Lol - the '78 Camaro sucked. I would prefer to to remake them new.
But I understand what you're trying to say. And "to each his own", it seems the OP had both and was dissatisfied for some reason. I've not had the pleasure to experience the remake, so I'm just along for the nerd stuff.

Thank you Tom Katt!!!!

#383 6 months ago

I am removing my original post after seeing the minus five downvotes. I'll defer to the pinside Top 100 voters who week after week have the CGC re-makes far over the originals. I'll leave this particular thread now for the flipper pedantics.

My family continues to be enthralled by the advanced light shows, dot matrix sublimity, vibrant colors, interractive topper, and sound evolution every time they press the start buttons on MMR, AFMR and MBR.

#384 6 months ago

Yes, I was one year off. In my zeal to make a comparative point I erred on that. My apologies. I too wish I had a 63. Ha!

#385 6 months ago

'twas but a ribbing.

I'm going to take my '66 Camaro out later after I finish cleaning my '03 Trans Am.

Back on topic!

Has anyone actually confirmed a difference on the way the power is "ramped up" to the flippers on the remakes; i.e. the "attack" of the signal?

#386 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

The matter of the slightly shorter flipper is also a matter of personal taste. Obviously, many, many, many feel it is negligible.

What do you mean by shorter flipper? The flippers are identical.

If you mean a shorter flipper throw, that theory has essentially been debunked. Both remake and original appear to have an identical 50 degree throw.

#387 6 months ago
Quoted from Grandnational007:

Has anyone actually confirmed a difference on the way the power is "ramped up" to the flippers on the remakes; i.e. the "attack" of the signal?

This question is still open and is still being examined.

#388 6 months ago

I was going to post a big long diatribe on why I like my remake over OG equipment, and then I realized, I don't give a shit if people don't like the remakes, I do, and that's all that matters.

#389 6 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I don't give a shit if people don't like the remakes, I do, and that's all that matters.

The world would be a better place if more people ascribed to that philosophy

#390 6 months ago
Quoted from TomKatt:

The world would be a better place if more people ascribed to that philosophy

But it's long diatribes about why other people are wrong that make Pinside a better place...

#391 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

But it's long diatribes about why other people are wrong that make Pinside a better place...

And it was my observation that I hate reading long diatribes about why remakes suck that made me change my mind about posting one on why they don't.

#392 6 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

And it was my observation that I hate reading long diatribes about why remakes suck that made me change my mind about posting one on why they don't.

Bublehead, I am with you 100%. But be rest assured, based on the weekly Top 100, and overwhelemingly the opinions of most pinball owners, the three CGC re-makes are vastly preferred over the originals. This thread is an outlier, though even here where the original owners are getting their say, maybe half are in our camp.

#393 6 months ago

Just tackled this thread today...

Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

a quarter circle is cut out of the corner of the protractor at the intersection of 0 and 90 degrees which rests against the flipper's shaft when taking measurements.

May I respectfully request that you redo these measurements, this time making sure that the corner of the protractor is actually up against the flipper shaft? If the shaft is really where you indicate, no wonder the flippers are wonky! Normally it's right in the middle of the semicircle at the end of the bat.

Also note the protractor has itself moved considerably between these photos, as I point out at the 55 degree mark and with the circles. A little scotch tape does wonders.

Not cropping off any portion of the bat or the protractor would be helpful in the analysis, as well.

down (resized).jpgup (resized).jpg
#394 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

I am removing my original post after seeing the minus five downvotes. I'll defer to the pinside Top 100 voters who week after week have the CGC re-makes far over the originals. I'll leave this particular thread now for the flipper pedantics.

So question for robin

Does nuking your own post like this also nuke the downvotes from your accrued total? Inquiring minds want to know...

BTW FFH, you tellingly left "gameplay" out of your list

#395 6 months ago
Quoted from FarFromHeaven26:

based on the weekly Top 100, and overwhelemingly the opinions of most pinball owners, the three CGC re-makes are vastly preferred over the originals.

You keep repeating this as if it’s meaningful. There are also many flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. Many of those people are wrong.

The number of people that believe something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not.

If the ‘flipper difference’ issue is to be settled, first it has to be identified. A specific claim made, articulated in a way that can be investigated and shown to be accurate or inaccurate. After the claim is made, then measurements can be made and published.

Until such a claim is made the likely response to any finding will be ‘that’s not the difference I was talking about’.

#396 6 months ago

Another flipper current measurement to add to my BM66, DI, and Houdini flipper measurements a couple pages back...

A friend's NGG below, meaning it's likely the same as an original AFM or MM.

Like before, 1mV = 0.1A. So the main 'flip' is ~12.8A, Looks like the hold current up is maybe 0.4A (wasn't too worried about that measurement).

Main pulse is a lot shorter (20mS/div) and it looks like the EOS might be kicking in at the end. I have a close in screen shot of the abrupt change (likely from the EOS), but didn't post it - I will if someone wants to see it. Thinking about it, the EOS gap might have affected the main 'flip' duration. The other pins I measured were in the 50mS range, this is about half that at ~20mS.

Didn't have much time to measure, so I only grabbed some quick screen shots off the scope.

pasted_image (resized).png

#397 6 months ago

Another interesting shot.

So why do the Williams and JJP flippers have such a "jagged" response, when the Stern and Houdini have a much more "clean" response?

#398 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Another interesting shot.
So why do the Williams and JJP flippers have such a "jagged" response, when the Stern and Houdini have a much more "clean" response?

And why are Spooky and the remakes so sloppy at the end of their stroke?

#399 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Another interesting shot.
So why do the Williams and JJP flippers have such a "jagged" response, when the Stern and Houdini have a much more "clean" response?

Haven't looked into that, other than it appears to be pulsed. I'd have to dig in and add more probes (i.e. is the driver transistor or MOSFET really being pulsed? What's the supply voltage doing?). Here's a closeup, with what I think it the EOS kicking in.

There's a lot of other design reasons that could be related to the two designs being different (slower transistors, some capacitance somewhere, different threshold voltages if it's a MOSTFET, gate capacitance, etc.). Might be even as simple as flipper button 'bounce' (i.e. not making a good connection) - I'd have review all the pictures and see if they are consistent.

I'm not going to do this, but it would be interesting to model in Spice (used for transient simulations) if the models were accurate. Modeling the solenoid would take some doing, since the inductance and Q would change as the core moves. Prior to retiring a few moths ago, I use to do all my designs w/RF simulation software, some really crazy high-end CAE tools. Almost scary the level of accuracy I could achieve up into the GHz range or at high power levels (>1KW) if I made the models correctly. No doubt an overkill for a 'flipper' discussion.

Sorry for being a little too technical, hard to break that habit after designing for 30+ years.

pasted_image (resized).png

#400 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

And why are Spooky and the remakes so sloppy at the end of their stroke?

Maybe you could plot sloppy-ness over time for various machines and get back to us on that...

There are 425 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 9.

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