(Topic ID: 291468)

It's Time to Talk About CGC / Remake Flippers

By CrazyLevi

6 months ago


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  • 425 posts
  • 79 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 85 days ago by Peak-Pin
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There are 425 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 9.
#201 6 months ago

Someone needs to send a protractor to Lyman. I hear he’s got a nice original AFM!

#202 6 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Did you notice any difference in the pulse width timing (power and hold) and amplitude between the originals and remakes? Also the shape of the pulses, ie. decay, overshoot, etc.?

The initial voltages seemed similar. The originals don't use pulse width modulation and also did not have software adjustable flipper power. The main difference I found was in the initial delay but that was small. I sold my remake years ago, so I no longer have any ability to look into this further.

#203 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

In an effort to bring some objectivity to the conversation, I took the time to print a protractor and measure the throw of the flippers on my AFMr LE. What I discovered is that the throw from rest to fully extended when pressing the flipper button is 50 degrees (both left and right) dead-on balls accurate (to quote Mona Lisa from My Cousin Vinny).
However, I couldn't stop there as my curiosity was getting the best of me. Expecting the throw to be wider, I then measured both flippers on my Getaway (1992 Williams) which have been completely rebuilt, but was at least 2-3 years ago. To my surprise, the throw was also 50 degrees dead-on balls accurate for both left and right flippers.
Knowing that my new Stern JP Prem had to be different (since the feel is so different), I decided to measure the throw of it's flippers. You know what? It too was 50 degrees of throw dead-on balls accurate for both flippers.
Now, the only thing left is for someone with an original AFM (ideally someone who has rebuilt flippers fairly recently and someone who has not done so in years, if ever) to see what throw angles they measure. My assumption is that the AFM original flippers when new and rebuilt will also have 50 degrees of throw. If so, this should at least take the degrees of flipper throw out of the conversation.
FYI, a quarter circle is cut out of the corner of the protractor at the intersection of 0 and 90 degrees which rests against the flipper's shaft when taking measurements.

Excellent work...and very useful info. I will try to perform the same test on my MBr this weekend. Thanks.

#204 6 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

The initial voltages seemed similar. The originals don't use pulse width modulation and also did not have software adjustable flipper power. The main difference I found was in the initial delay but that was small. I sold my remake years ago, so I no longer have any ability to look into this further.

So there are major differences then as to how the power is being delivered to the flippers in the original vs remakes. It's not too hard to compare the flipper range but I think quantifying the effects of the electronics will be difficult.

#205 6 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Let’s contact that super high speed camera guy and then we can get a great slow motion video
Only mild sarcasm

It's out there already (The Slow Mo Guys), the flipper rubbers bouncing around when no ball is present is crazy:

The guy makes a really interesting comment at around 10:20 about the flippers.
pasted_image (resized).png

#206 6 months ago

The other thread shows that actually the lag differences are completely inconsequential between original and remake.

however I've now stuck gum on all my pinball machines as a token of respect.

Neil.

#207 6 months ago

I would love to see two screen shots from an oscilloscope. I have a Fish Tales I could use if that would work and I have AFMr and MBr I could use. I'll try to get it set up next week if anyone thinks it would be helpful.

#208 6 months ago

I came for the flipper arguments, but I stayed for the gumgument

#209 6 months ago
Quoted from Fn4me:

I would love to see two screen shots from an oscilloscope. I have a Fish Tales I could use if that would work and I have AFMr and MBr I could use. I'll try to get it set up next week if anyone thinks it would be helpful.

its been done go read the other thread.

#210 6 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I have yet to see anyone measure a decrease in coil power or change in timing with heating.

Have you not had a 45 minute game of CFTBL where you could make the whirlpool ramp shot at the beginning of the game but by the end there was no way the flipper could make it, even on a impulse shot? Steve Richie says they get weaker with play, and to start your design with hot flippers... I'll take my experience and his expertise and say, yeah, flippers get weaker when they get hot.

#211 6 months ago

I took some flipper range measurements on the games I have set up. Measurements were all over the map.
Full Throttle = 42°
RFM = 48° (not restored by me during ownership - last 10 years)
Alien = 54°
CC = 54° (HEP restored 12yrs ago)
LOTR = 57° (huo)

#212 6 months ago
Quoted from Fn4me:

I would love to see two screen shots from an oscilloscope. I have a Fish Tales I could use if that would work and I have AFMr and MBr I could use. I'll try to get it set up next week if anyone thinks it would be helpful.

If anyone wants to see both voltage and current on a scope, I can do that just for the heck of it. Wouldn't be on a AFMr tho (sold it). Stern, AP, and JJP is in the lineup.

Maybe we should start a different thread for that tho. Might get too off topic for this thread.

#213 6 months ago

OMFG, Is no one reading other posts in this thread......

#214 6 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Have you not had a 45 minute game of CFTBL where you could make the whirlpool ramp shot at the beginning of the game but by the end there was no way the flipper could make it, even on a impulse shot? Steve Richie says they get weaker with play, and to start your design with hot flippers... I'll take my experience and his expertise and say, yeah, flippers get weaker when they get hot.

I haven’t experienced this with CFTBL. I have no doubt people have had experiences like this, but they seem rare considering every game has coils that heat up after 45 mins. Was the power supply getting hot and dropping voltage? was the coil sleeve starting to bind as it heated up? Was it due to increased resistance in the coil related to heating?

There are a lot of testimonials out there from reputable pinball personalities who believe this. Jimmy Carter also reported a ufo sighting. All of this may be real, but my point if it is real it should be possible to measure and document it. Only then will we know what if any effect cooling snd other strategies might have. I tried to measure and couldn’t find any effect, which led me to think it is over blown. I feel like if it is real and it is import enough to influence game play then measure it.

#215 6 months ago

A ton of the "heat up and get weak" issues over the years are simply due to badly rebuilt flippers. If the pawl is clamped on the flipper shaft too high or too low, the plunger will be pulled into the coil at an angle, significantly increasing friction between the plunger and coil sleeve and causing the flipper to weaken as the sleeve heats up. This is a guaranteed result of bad clamp placement and can happen on any game, regardless of flipper system.

#216 6 months ago

Post the flipper bat pics please!

#217 6 months ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I haven’t experienced this with CFTBL. I have no doubt people have had experiences like this, but they seem rare considering every game has coils that heat up after 45 mins. Was the power supply getting hot and dropping voltage? was the coil sleeve starting to bind as it heated up? Was it due to increased resistance in the coil related to heating?
There are a lot of testimonials out there from reputable pinball personalities who believe this. Jimmy Carter also reported a ufo sighting. All of this may be real, but my point if it is real it should be possible to measure and document it. Only then will we know what if any effect cooling snd other strategies might have. I tried to measure and couldn’t find any effect, which led me to think it is over blown. I feel like if it is real and it is import enough to influence game play then measure it.

I have noticed on CFTBL but really notice it on Stern AIQ.

#218 6 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

It's out there already (The Slow Mo Guys), the flipper rubbers bouncing around when no ball is present is crazy:
The guy makes a really interesting comment at around 10:20 about the flippers.
[quoted image]

Thank you for posting! Really cool video. I have seen slow mo but nothing like that. Crazy.

#219 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

A ton of the "heat up and get weak" issues over the years are simply due to badly rebuilt flippers. If the pawl is clamped on the flipper shaft too high or too low, the plunger will be pulled into the coil at an angle, significantly increasing friction between the plunger and coil sleeve and causing the flipper to weaken as the sleeve heats up. This is a guaranteed result of bad clamp placement and can happen on any game, regardless of flipper system.

Interesting. Hadn't heard this before but it makes sense. I recently rebuilt the flippers on my ST and have been experiencing fade. Will give this a look.

#220 6 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

A ton of the "heat up and get weak" issues over the years are simply due to badly rebuilt flippers

Agree, I was guilty of this the first couple rebuilds I did. Hey ya gotta start somewhere... now I always make sure everything is nice and easy moving / loose.

#221 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

In an effort to bring some objectivity to the conversation, I took the time to print a protractor and measure the throw of the flippers on my AFMr LE. What I discovered is that the throw from rest to fully extended when pressing the flipper button is 50 degrees (both left and right) dead-on balls accurate (to quote Mona Lisa from My Cousin Vinny).
However, I couldn't stop there as my curiosity was getting the best of me. Expecting the throw to be wider, I then measured both flippers on my Getaway (1992 Williams) which have been completely rebuilt, but was at least 2-3 years ago. To my surprise, the throw was also 50 degrees dead-on balls accurate for both left and right flippers.
Knowing that my new Stern JP Prem had to be different (since the feel is so different), I decided to measure the throw of it's flippers. You know what? It too was 50 degrees of throw dead-on balls accurate for both flippers.
Now, the only thing left is for someone with an original AFM (ideally someone who has rebuilt flippers fairly recently and someone who has not done so in years, if ever) to see what throw angles they measure. My assumption is that the AFM original flippers when new and rebuilt will also have 50 degrees of throw. If so, this should at least take the degrees of flipper throw out of the conversation.
FYI, a quarter circle is cut out of the corner of the protractor at the intersection of 0 and 90 degrees which rests against the flipper's shaft when taking measurements.

I did the same test on my 3 machines...

On my EBD-LE, the flipper travel is 55 degrees.
On my WH20, the flipper travel is 52 degrees.
On my MBr, the flipper travel is 50 degrees.

It would be nice if some other owners (especially original MM, AFM, and MB) could report theirs.

#222 6 months ago

here’s my MB

551E67DC-C6B3-43AF-89CE-0A4823DE9B7A (resized).jpegC71345FF-E051-4DCC-AB6F-E787FF553487 (resized).jpeg
#223 6 months ago

LTRAiN Thanks for posting that.

I pasted both those images into a paint program, measured the angle between the center lines of the two flipper positions, and got 48 degrees.

#224 6 months ago

It would be nice to get more pics of the original games' flipper bat positions. It should however be ensured that those posting pics on the flipper bats of original games have not restored the flipper mechanisms by buying new flipper brackets for them, since the replacement brackets provide shorter flipper travel.

#225 6 months ago
Quoted from Nepi23:

since the replacement brackets provide shorter flipper travel.

How do you know this? How are the replacement brackets different, or are you just assuming that original brackets will be worn/bent or something?

If this is true, then it is likely that this is a big part of the "problem" (assuming it exists), as the remakes are built with essentially "replacement" brackets.

#226 6 months ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

I have noticed on CFTBL but really notice it on Stern AIQ.

You have 30 games. All of them the flippers will heat up with use. Do you notice it on all of them?

#227 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

How do you know this? How are the replacement brackets different, or are you just assuming that original brackets will be worn/bent or something?
If this is true, then it is likely that this is a big part of the "problem" (assuming it exists), as the remakes are built with essentially "replacement" brackets.

I have had this atleast on my original MM: the original flipper bracket had gone bad and I replaced that. The result was that the flipper travel was diminished with the replacement bracket and I have to bend the bracket in order to have the same travel for both flippers.

I posted about it here sometime ago: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/proper-replacement-part-for-wpc95-flipper-base-assembly#post-4222354
I was also then considering buying a PPS replacement part to try that as well, but I never did.

I do think there aren't currently proper substitutes available for the original WMS flipper brackets.

#228 6 months ago

Double post, deleted

#229 6 months ago
Quoted from Nepi23:

I have had this atleast on my original MM: the original flipper bracket had gone bad and I replaced that. The result was that the flipper travel was diminished with the replacement bracket and I have to bend the bracket in order to have the same travel for both flippers.
I posted about it here sometime ago: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/proper-replacement-part-for-wpc95-flipper-base-assembly#post-4222354
I was also then considering buying a PPS replacement part to try that as well, but I never did.
I do think there aren't currently proper substitutes available for the original WMS flipper brackets.

Were you able to determine why/how the bracket was different?

Was the old bracket already bent the way you did the new one? Was it a slightly different length? Were the mounting holes for the flipper stop in a slightly different place? Seems like there could be several reasons why one bracket would have different flipper travel than another.

And it could also be why some people think the flipper travel is too short on the remakes. If the remakes are using the "new" bracket and (most) originals have the "old" bracket, the flipper travel could indeed be different.

#230 6 months ago

I know it has been asked ad nauseum, but we are still awaiting some (at least one to get things started) to post physical measurements/photos of flipper throw on the original AFM. I'd be curious for both old flippers and those newly rebuilt, which I assume in either state those who own the game are satisfied with the overall feel and shot making ability.

Just download the protractor image I've included, print, cut, tape in place with 0 being center flipper tip when at rest, press the flipper button and take an overhead shot showing the angles (left & right flippers). Here you can see how I did it: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/it-s-time-to-talk-about-cgc-remake-flippers-/page/4#post-6230716

Will an original AFM owner or two please step-up and do this for the group? This is not about proving who is right/wrong, which version is better/worse. Rather, we are just trying to get some analytical data to see if there is truly a difference in the flipper throw from the original to the remake (at this point, I don't think anyone can definitively say there is or is not until we get more measurements from both AFM and AFMr owners).
protractor.png

#231 6 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Were you able to determine why/how the bracket was different?
Was the old bracket already bent the way you did the new one? Was it a slightly different length? Were the mounting holes for the flipper stop in a slightly different place? Seems like there could be several reasons why one bracket would have different flipper travel than another.
And it could also be why some people think the flipper travel is too short on the remakes. If the remakes are using the "new" bracket and (most) originals have the "old" bracket, the flipper travel could indeed be different.

Sorry, I think I compared them, but I do not remember what was different to me.
The old bracket was unbent and I had to bend the new bracket in order to get the same travel as with the old bracket.

#232 5 months ago

I'm not going to bother to read all the dreck responses, whatever they are...not important to me.

CrazyLevi, we are in total agreement, here. I do wish to make the point that the new versions of the machines are, aesthetically at least, visions of glory, to be honest. While I may not want all of the new bells and whistles that they offer in terms of massive displays, toppers, etc., I *have to* say that just being able to see these things lit up in all of their beauty is simply jaw-dropping.

And then you play them, and they become jaw-dropping for an entirely different, altogether *AWFUL* reason: they play entirely wrong, and like garbage. For whatever the reason is, and for all of our sakes let's just blame it on the emulation (because I think that physical parts can be properly tweaked to be correct), the way the flippers feel and shoot on all of these machines are nothing shy of utterly *TRAGIC*. They. Could. Not. Get. Much. More. Wrong.

Again: looking at these things is an absolute *pleasure*. They are absolutely gorgeous, and I have no sarcasm there at all. But when the engine isn't right, I don't care *how* great a car looks: if it doesn't drive well, it's a failure.

I know one woman who owns an original WMS AFM and would never part with it unless you tore it out of her cold, dead Canadian hands. She has the exact same feelings I do: they play like crap, because they play absolutely *wrong*. I would *love* to have a perfect Medieval Madness from a new run...but it would have to PLAY RIGHT, and these DO NOT. And, apparently, due to the emulation factor, they never will.

That's sad. I want so badly to love these things...but I don't. I doubt that I ever can, barring major OS changes.

#233 5 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

That's sad. I want so badly to love these things...but I don't. I doubt that I ever can, barring major OS changes.

I respect your opinion, but disagree with the notion that the emulation is the problem. If these play like OG's or don't, by my Hi score table, you would not be able to tell me they play any different. I have had my best MB scores in my life on my MBrLE, the only thing different to me is the scoop protector makes the scoop shot reject way more balls than OG MB, and thats due to the step metal edge acting like an anti-scoop force field to slow rolling balls. I have completed every mode, every monster, scored every easter egg in it EXCEPT Lyman's Lament and that damn scoop protector is the reason.

So, now, how does one gauge if it plays like OG or doesn't? By feel? By score?, if that is true, my remake plays BETTER than OG MB, because my best score on my remake is about 1/3 higher than my best OG score, and that I did back in the 90's when I was way younger and way better than my 59th year on this planet. Not trying to justify why I purchased one, I am having a blast with it and those who choose to buy one of 3000 OG MB's can go right ahead and pay $10K plus for it.

I only paid $8300 delivered and I got the big ass color screen, integrated LED RGB GI, Custom LED lit sculpted topper, blue metallic powder coated trim, laser etched lockdown collectors plate, integrated plasma toy, mirror blades, plus integrated lighted cabinet speakers, and a shaker motor. If that was not a pinball bargain, call me crazy.

There is a reason you are hard pressed to find an NIB MBrLE.

#234 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I respect your opinion, but disagree with the notion that the emulation is the problem. If these play like OG's or don't, by my Hi score table, you would not be able to tell me they play any different. I have had my best MB scores in my life on my MBrLE, the only thing different to me is the scoop protector makes the scoop shot reject way more balls than OG MB, and thats due to the step metal edge acting like an anti-scoop force field to slow rolling balls. I have completed every mode, every monster, scored every easter egg in it EXCEPT Lyman's Lament and that damn scoop protector is the reason.
So, now, how does one gauge if it plays like OG or doesn't? By feel? By score?, if that is true, my remake plays BETTER than OG MB, because my best score on my remake is about 1/3 higher than my best OG score, and that I did back in the 90's when I was way younger and way better than my 59th year on this planet. Not trying to justify why I purchased one, I am having a blast with it and those who choose to buy one of 3000 OG MB's can go right ahead and pay $10K plus for it.
I only paid $8300 delivered and I got the big ass color screen, integrated LED RGB GI, Custom LED lit sculpted topper, blue metallic powder coated trim, laser etched lockdown collectors plate, integrated plasma toy, mirror blades, plus integrated lighted cabinet speakers, and a shaker motor. If that was not a pinball bargain, call me crazy.
There is a reason you are hard pressed to find an NIB MBrLE.

OK, I respect your opinion as well, especially the part about the fact that you bought something that you like, and you're having a blast with it. Good for you, and I'm happy for you in that regard. Great purchase.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you believe that emulation is not the problem in question, though. See, my biggest issue is that the feel of the flippers, the way they *play*, is completely different in OG WMS games and the CGC remakes. We're only a decade apart in age, so unless you've only taken up pinball in the past 20 years or so, you played these OG machines when they were brand new and in their prime. Plus, if you play an OG and a CGC one after the next, there's no *question* that the feel is absolutely, completely different on the same title...you cannot deny this, objectively, if you have, indeed, played the OGs in their prime, or properly taken care of/shopped.

If it's simply a matter of something that you can *live with*, well, fine: you can say that and I'll respect that all day long. But, and this is key: for some of us, that difference is too great an obstacle to ignore and live with. To me, the machine *has to* play right *first*, and then all the other stuff is gravy: the beautiful lights, the displays, the sound upgrades, the toppers, the what-have-you. Those things are, to me, extraneous. They're *not* bad things...but they don't overcome the primary issue, which is the subpar play of the things due to the horrible way they flip.

Again: I'm not trying to crap on your purchase, or make you feel bad for doing so. If you're happy, please: stay happy. Having said that, those of us who do care about such things should be heard, because the play of a pinball machine is the most important thing about it these days, even more important than earning potential, since the home market is so important.

#235 5 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

OK, I respect your opinion as well, especially the part about the fact that you bought something that you like, and you're having a blast with it. Good for you, and I'm happy for you in that regard. Great purchase.
I'm having a hard time understanding why you believe that emulation is not the problem in question, though. See, my biggest issue is that the feel of the flippers, the way they *play*, is completely different in OG WMS games and the CGC remakes. We're only a decade apart in age, so unless you've only taken up pinball in the past 20 years or so, you played these OG machines when they were brand new and in their prime. Plus, if you play an OG and a CGC one after the next, there's no *question* that the feel is absolutely, completely different on the same title...you cannot deny this, objectively, if you have, indeed, played the OGs in their prime, or properly taken care of/shopped.
If it's simply a matter of something that you can *live with*, well, fine: you can say that and I'll respect that all day long. But, and this is key: for some of us, that difference is too great an obstacle to ignore and live with. To me, the machine *has to* play right *first*, and then all the other stuff is gravy: the beautiful lights, the displays, the sound upgrades, the toppers, the what-have-you. Those things are, to me, extraneous. They're *not* bad things...but they don't overcome the primary issue, which is the subpar play of the things due to the horrible way they flip.
Again: I'm not trying to crap on your purchase, or make you feel bad for doing so. If you're happy, please: stay happy. Having said that, those of us who do care about such things should be heard, because the play of a pinball machine is the most important thing about it these days, even more important than earning potential, since the home market is so important.

And this is how we should all approach our disagreements, with respect and understanding. Yes, As my age would indicate I have played just about everything when it was in its prime, from about 1966 onwards. As far as machine to machine, even OG versions of all 3 remakes didn't all play the same or "right" as you use the term. I grew up paying for my pinball a quarter at a time, and even better, a dime for 5 balls. No two operators set their machines up the same, we had favorites at different locations because of this. My friends (same age) who have played my recreation and also a prime OG say it feels like a MB, a better than average example, but they have played others that play better. And once you get used to how THIS machine plays, OG equipment feels wrong, and I have played Larry's MB (of Starship Fantasy fame) several times and it feels like I'm playing a Fire Power or a System 11 machine, and not because of age, just how the flippers felt to me. So I am happy, but also a little sad that you don't like the remakes, because that means you are probably not going to like an original title CGC might produce in the future, which I am looking forward too.

#236 5 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

I know one woman who owns an original WMS AFM and would never part with it unless you tore it out of her cold, dead Canadian hands. She has the exact same feelings I do: they play like crap, because they play absolutely *wrong*. I would *love* to have a perfect Medieval Madness from a new run...but it would have to PLAY RIGHT, and these DO NOT. And, apparently, due to the emulation factor, they never will.
That's sad. I want so badly to love these things...but I don't. I doubt that I ever can, barring major OS changes.

Wrong as in the timing / feeling is different or the angle that the flippers go up is different ?

There are several discussions here and my feeling is that people mix up things.

There's the feeling of how powerful the coil is and how fast it reacts - that's measuring the delay in milliseconds, how powerful the coil is (the throw and hold), how the end of stroke switch works, ..
In the other thread the delay has been measured - but imo that's not everything - what coil is used, how much current it received (pulsed or not, ..) will also matter. So even if MMr now uses the same type of coil and millisecond delay - because they can set the power in different levels means they somehow pulse the signal which may result in a weaker or slower reacting coil ?

There's also a discussion about the flipper angle and what is original.

Searching RGP for flipper travel and flipper angle reveals some similar discussions in the past:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/l7rsAnbiE6c/m/AVu47bPNfgwJ
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/_2I3vcvwBj0/m/cuZwe2U8BA4J
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/12DSZzZ3YF8/m/SDAnCGdgQlsJ

Here are lists about all parts involved - but unfortunately none really measure the flipper angle, only note that it changed.
http://www.pinpointelec.com/flipper-parts.html
http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/flippers/index.html

What I learn from this is that it parts changed and it seems the flipper travel / angle decreased, some people state it there.
Also that many wrong rebuild kits exist and were used in the past.

When people now say they they don't like how MMr plays, maybe can't compare to the original MM.
Probably MMr/AFMr flippers have the original throw like AFM/MM had.
But pinball players are just used to the to the older style of WPC games (TAF / TZ era) and like that style of flippers more, and now it feels wrong, just WPC95 flippers felt wrong 25 years ago..
Or they're used to even playing original MM's that have been rebuilt using incorrect parts - because most players preferred the larger throw.

#237 5 months ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Wrong as in the timing / feeling is different or the angle that the flippers go up is different ?
There are several discussions here and my feeling is that people mix up things.
There's the feeling of how powerful the coil is and how fast it reacts - that's measuring the delay in milliseconds, how powerful the coil is (the throw and hold), how the end of stroke switch works, ..
In the other thread the delay has been measured - but imo that's not everything - what coil is used, how much current it received (pulsed or not, ..) will also matter. So even if MMr now uses the same type of coil and millisecond delay - because they can set the power in different levels means they somehow pulse the signal which may result in a weaker or slower reacting coil ?
There's also a discussion about the flipper angle and what is original.
Searching RGP for flipper travel and flipper angle reveals some similar discussions in the past:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/l7rsAnbiE6c/m/AVu47bPNfgwJ
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/_2I3vcvwBj0/m/cuZwe2U8BA4J
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/12DSZzZ3YF8/m/SDAnCGdgQlsJ
Here are lists about all parts involved - but unfortunately none really measure the flipper angle, only note that it changed.
http://www.pinpointelec.com/flipper-parts.html
http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/flippers/index.html
What I learn from this is that it parts changed and it seems the flipper travel / angle decreased, some people state it there.
Also that many wrong rebuild kits exist and were used in the past.
When people now say they they don't like how MMr plays, maybe can't compare to the original MM.
Probably MMr/AFMr flippers have the original throw like AFM/MM had.
But pinball players are just used to the to the older style of WPC games (TAF / TZ era) and like that style of flippers more, and now it feels wrong, just WPC95 flippers felt wrong 25 years ago..
Or they're used to even playing original MM's that have been rebuilt using incorrect parts - because most players preferred the larger throw.

Dude, Aeneas...I didn't even know you were on Pinside. It's good to "see" you again.

You make valid points, and to be honest, I don't know how to address all of them other than to say that I want to define the apples that I'm comparing to themselves, so to speak. Apples should be compared to apples, and they should be compared to the same *kind* of apples, as well. So, what I'm saying here is that, in brand new condition for both WMS and CGC, the way the flippers operate and feel are distinctly different, and because my predisposition is to believe/call the first (or "original") version the standard, and the second ("remake") is not the same, then that leads me to conclude that, because the second is supposed to be a pound-for-pound remake of the exact same thing as the first, it's wrong. I'm comparing brand new to brand new, here. The flippers on CGC machines may function, but they don't function right when compared to the ones found in WMS games...they're definitely off when they're brand new out of the box.

Now, is it the angle? I'm sure that plays into it. I've got to be honest and say that my playtime on CGC remakes is limited in that, every time I play one, the feel/play of the thing is so awful to me that I just can't stand it, so I stop. I've played them all, though, and they all rather stink. Is it the OS/emulation? That very well could be, too. I have to believe that it's more of that than the latter, though, because physically speaking, the parts can be replaced, the angles can be rectified, et cetera...you can make the mechs be what the former WMS were completely, and the feel would still be off from what I've felt. Prime examples: hitting the ship in AFM or the castle in MM shouldn't need to be done as soon as the flipper is dropped...but that's basically the case as I've seen/played. The trajectory and the strength of the flippers are just *off* for some unknown reasons, and that's how they're shipped! How is that possible? In my well-traveled opinion, they play like garbage, and not because I dislike two of the three titles they've made. Everyone knows how much I love and embrace Medieval Madness as a shining star in all of pinball. CGC's MMr is an awful experience to me, in terms of *play*, because the flippers feel so awful. They didn't just miss the mark by a little; they missed it by a bunch.

Is...is that helpful? I don't know. I don't want to own them, though, even if they are absolutely *GORGEOUS* to take in.

#238 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

So I am happy, but also a little sad that you don't like the remakes, because that means you are probably not going to like an original title CGC might produce in the future, which I am looking forward too.

Now, see, I don't know about that at *all*, because when they're doing remakes, I'm always going to be hardwired to immediately compare the play of the things to the original machines from WMS. Should they come up with an all-original design of their own, the math is going to be completely new, since there isn't going to be anything to compare them to! I may be able to judge the thing all on its own without a prerequisite idea of what the thing *should* feel like, since it's going to be all fresh to my mind/eyes and everything.

That being said, even in the very best of games made today, there are always improvements that can be made, and I don't have any problem both praising the good and critiquing the should-be-improved (a.k.a. "bad").

I would very much be interested in seeing them toss their hat into the ring that way. They'd certainly get a fair shake. I believe that I'm pretty even-handed when it comes to such things, as even now, I praise the CGC remakes for Just. How. Pretty. They. Are. And they really are. That being said, it's like seeing a gorgeous woman, taking in all of her physical beauty, and then she speaks and laughs, and she has the voice and laughter of Fran Drescher, and it makes me sad.

#239 5 months ago
Quoted from boagman:

CGC's MMr is an awful experience to me, in terms of *play*, because the flippers feel so awful. They didn't just miss the mark by a little; they missed it by a bunch.

Everyone saying stuff like this seems to forget that even most "originals" don't play like other "originals". I played lots of different original MM machines, and each one felt different from the others.

I've owned a WH20 for over 20 years, and go out of my way to play every other WH20 that I can. And every one of them feels "wrong" to me, because it doesn't feel like mine, even though they are all "originals".

Now, that doesn't mean that we can't look for ways to improve the experience.

CrazyLevi has postulated that the flipper throw is too short on the remakes. Maybe this is true, or maybe it is just more "doesn't feel the same as that one I used to like". Obtaining and analyzing actual data from owners (of both original and remakes) is the best way forward.

I'm starting to suspect that the change in flipper brackets (from B-13104 to C-16103) has something to do with this. I re-built the lower right flipper on my WH20 last year (and also replaced the flipper bracket) and did notice that the flipper travel was less. When I did that, I assumed that it was related to the flipper mechanism itself, but I am now suspecting that it was the base plate the whole time.

If the remakes are using the new replacement part (and then being compared to originals with the old part), this would account for some difference.

I'd like to see less talk about "they just don't FEEL the same", and more examination of how they might actually be different (or not different).

#240 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

As a tournament player, this required a significant adjustment. The ball was more difficult to trap now, and center area shots were also changed drastically and more difficult to hit.
On the other side, orbit and side ramps were now much easier, or at least much more common with a "missed" shot..

This is exactly what I see! I had an original AFM for a few years and when I would play a remake this describes my experience perfectly.

#241 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Now, that doesn't mean that we can't look for ways to improve the experience.
CrazyLevi has postulated that the flipper throw is too short on the remakes. Maybe this is true, or maybe it is just more "doesn't feel the same as that one I used to like". Obtaining and analyzing actual data from owners (of both original and remakes) is the best way forward.

As I've watched this thread - with photos and measurements - and played my own HUO Monster Bash, I'm starting to think the "throw" isn't as wildly different as I thought it was (though still shorter than it should be), but the "feel" argument can't just be discarded. They DO "feel" different because they ARE different - they are more like Spooky flippers where they get soft at the end of the stroke. It's pretty clear to me, and the other players I've had over at my place. They are mushy at the end of the stroke, and just aren't as snappy with any of the shots.

#242 5 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

As I've watched this thread - with photos and measurements - and played my own HUO Monster Bash, I'm starting to think the "throw" isn't as wildly different as I thought it was (though still shorter than it should be), but the "feel" argument can't just be discarded. They DO "feel" different because they ARE different - they are more like Spooky flippers where they get soft at the end of the stroke. It's pretty clear to me, and the other players I've had over at my place. They are mushy at the end of the stroke, and just aren't as snappy with any of the shots.

We need more empirical data. I too question if the throw is different or not. My Getaway feels like the throw is more, but as I stated in my previous post the flipper throw on that pin is exactly the same as my AFMr (50 degrees). Flipper alignment is different (AFMr is a little lower by design) which makes the ball more difficult to craddle. However, as you state, the flipper mechanisms themself feel different. Might be the switches, might be the electronics, who knows at this point - why additional data is welcome.

My Getaway flippers have been rebuilt, including replacement Williams bats, and I use the same rings on both my AFM and my Getaway (Titan thin bands). I'm sure the switches are different, the coils may be different (I've adjusted my coil strength down from default), some of the other flipper mech parts may be different (I don't know), one is a well aged 30 year old pin while the others is only 3, etc. The sound is even different, but this could be an effect of the build components, cabinet materials, etc.

I don't think any honest person would say they are the same. I think the main effort here is to understand what is different (i.e. the "why"), and then do our best given the controls/settings available to adjust the AFMr to be as close to the original as it can be (realizing most likely they will never be identical).

#243 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I'd like to see less talk about "they just don't FEEL the same", and more examination of how they might actually be different

Same here. This is something that has objective data available. It can be measured.

Comments about feelings aren’t helpful measurements, they are just a claim and do nothing to help find a solution.

I will say that skilled players (I count CrazyLevi among them) tend to notice differences that players like me simply chalk up to normal differences between any two tables.

Establishing a baseline “correct” definition on the originals is a challenge too, since they have all been rebuilt multiple times by now. It will take a coordinated effort to do so and probably involve multiple people.

#244 5 months ago

Now comes the big question... does anyone remember the days when you wasted a quarter to just see if both the flippers were working at all? I think the discussion on flipper "feel" is relevant in an offhand way, but refusing to play a pinball machine just because something doesn't "feel" right is being a bit unrealistic. I have stepped up to many a machine where the flippers felt "wrong" but you adjust and have fun. The only reasons I've
ever gave up was either a sticky flipper, or one so weak it couldn't make the ramp shots.

#245 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Everyone saying stuff like this seems to forget that even most "originals" don't play like other "originals". I played lots of different original MM machines, and each one felt different from the others.

I owned a HUO MB for 3 years. First owner never played it, 2nd was too afraid of putting wear on it, so it was essentially new (and looked it) when I got it. The flippers were untouched.

Comparing the flipping on that game to the new MMRs I played at Expo - they were nothing alike. The OG MB flippers never got tired, all shots were rockets, the game was quite difficult due to the speed of the shots, and everything flowed just perfectly. Balls whipped around the ramps and orbits.

OTOH the MM remake at Expo: flippers felt noodly, delayed and laggy, like a crappy 6803 game. They worked, you could make shots, but no solidness like the originals. Someone said they feel like Spooky flippers and I agree with that. Same mechs but completely different drive. Dunno what else to say but I've compared new to new and they're nothing alike.

#246 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Dunno what else to say but I've compared new to new and they're nothing alike

Out of the box, my MBrLE did NOT shoot well, and was not anything like an OG MB...
But now it does and that's because I tweaked everything to make it right, Including bumping up flipper power to get that snappy feel, bending the scoop to address the SDTM issues, adding foam and adjusting right orbit lane wall near Drac to eliminate most SDTM off his feet, and reforming the left Bride wireform to better match the stainless ball guides.

#247 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

I owned a HUO MB for 3 years. First owner never played it, 2nd was too afraid of putting wear on it, so it was essentially new (and looked it) when I got it. The flippers were untouched.
Comparing the flipping on that game to the new MMRs I played at Expo - they were nothing alike. The OG MB flippers never got tired, all shots were rockets, the game was quite difficult due to the speed of the shots, and everything flowed just perfectly. Balls whipped around the ramps and orbits.
OTOH the MM remake at Expo: flippers felt noodly, delayed and laggy, like a crappy 6803 game. They worked, you could make shots, but no solidness like the originals. Someone said they feel like Spooky flippers and I agree with that. Same mechs but completely different drive. Dunno what else to say but I've compared new to new and they're nothing alike.

I'm not saying that the differences aren't noticeable. But comparing a machine with low play in a home environment to a machine at a convention isn't a fair comparison.

#248 5 months ago
Quoted from porkcarrot:

I'm not saying that the differences aren't noticeable. But comparing a machine with low play in a home environment to a machine at a convention isn't a fair comparison.

Why? They were both brand new games. There was talk of could it be due to low mains power at the show, but other game played fine, and IIRC don't the remakes use solid-state power supplies?

I took my OG AFM to the same show in prior years and it played just as fast and mean there as it did in my house.

#249 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Why? They were both brand new games. There was talk of could it be due to low mains power at the show, but other game played fine, and IIRC don't the remakes use solid-state power supplies?
I took my OG AFM to the same show in prior years and it played just as fast and mean there as it did in my house.

How many people played the game before you did? Was there a line to play it? It's possible the machine was in peak shape, but it's very possible it wasn't.

#250 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

The OG MB flippers never got tired, all shots were rockets, the game was quite difficult due to the speed of the shots, and everything flowed just perfectly. Balls whipped around the ramps and orbits.

Strange, as this describes my MBr perfectly. My flippers are very strong and make all ramps fast and easily. As for fade, I did notice some fade at the end of my best (1.7 Billion) game, though I can't say for sure that it wasn't my own self that was fading.

If anything, I think the flippers may be too strong (and I have them set at -1 strength right now). It's not uncommon for me to hit the phantom target to the left of the left bride ramp and have the ball rocket back at me SDTM.

And while I may not be as good a player as I used to be, I have lots of experience playing original BW games - having made the finals at some of the early PAPA tourneys.

If there is a difference between original and remake, it's not that the flippers are too weak.

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