I'm an engineer too but don't need a degree to come to the conclusion that remakes play nothing like the originals. I even owned a HUO original MM so you can't say it felt different because the machine was routed and played thousands of times so the parts were worn out.

People who never really played the originals don't know any better and that is fine since they enjoy how the remake plays and don't have anything to compare it to. I been collecting a long time and have owned a lot of machines with AFM being one of my all time favorites so I'm pretty sure I know how it should feel.

People can argue which plays better and that is a matter of preference but saying they play the same is ridiculous.

Yep, I owned a HUO MB for a few years and the flippers on it were incredible. Actually made the game difficult due to how fast the ball came off the flipper... rebounds off posts and the phantom flip targets were SDTM before you could blink. Sad that it's been over 20 years since we've had new Fliptronics games. At least Stern flippers are pretty decent these days.

I never said any games play the same. Buy or play whatever game makes you happy.

There is another (long) thread here that went into the specifics of the signals/delays/etc between the original and remakes. After a lot of back and forth (and testing and re-testing), including input from CGC, it was determined that there was no detectable difference in the signal timings.

I will try to find that thread and post a link here...

edit : thread is here - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals

Pretty sure you used to bring an AFM to the Expo free play area that I always enjoyed.

I was speaking relatively because many have said how they own or played a remake and it felt the same as the originals.

Maybe I'm high but no two pins have ever felt or played the same to me, the variables alone between machine and environment practically ensure this.
The only thing to be concerned with is if the game plays good or not period.

I still think it is all subjective. I've played lots of "original" machines that don't feel anything like each other. I've owned a Whitewater for 20 years, and most every other Whitewater I have played has felt "different" - even one that is in another collector's home and is very well maintained.

The MB remake that I've played on location also feels different than my own MBr. So I am not at all surprised that people will say "this doesn't feel the same as that other machine." Even my brother's EBD-LE felt different than my own one.

Now, if there is a measurable difference in flipper travel and/or flipper resting angle (one that is directly measured and demonstrated - not just stated "I'm-sure-I'm-right-because-I've-been-doing-this-a-long-time"), then I would be very interested in seeing this.

And I suspect that CGC would be too - they've put a lot of hard work into replicating things and if they've missed something, I'm sure that they would like to know.

http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PPS-A-15849-R-2ND

This is interesting. PPS is saying the base plate is the same for OG and original games.

Was definitely determined there is no scientific difference between the WMS and CgC flipper mechs, and the whole bullshit argument was put to bed.

That was until CrazyLevi bought an AFMR started to ride the dankasaurous.

Can you share the part number you replaced? I have an early MMr and also have this issue, and I'd love to correct it with a proper part as opposed to bending other pieces. Much appreciated!

I own a Getaway (fully rebuilt flippers), AFMr LE, and Stern JP Prem. They all feel different when it comes to the flipper action, and I have to adjust from one to the other when playing. The Getaway (1992 Williams) seems to have the longest flipper throw IMO, and makes it fairly simple to catch the ball while also making all of the shots and even some good backhand flips.

After reading every post in this thread, I'm still interested to know what the original AFM flipper throw is (newly rebuilt would probably be the best option for comparison purposes). It would be nice if someone could show some good overhead pics with flippers aligned at rest and when fully extended so that those of us with AFMr pins who don't have access to originals can make similar adjustments. I understand that feel will still not be the same, but at least it should result in similar shot making capabilities.

This can be fixed... I have done it on my MBrLE and it takes about a minute to do and no more SDTM. And I am not talking just less than 25%, but 100% without even upgrading to the latest CGC software and the only tool needed is a large pair of visegrips. See the MBr owner thread for more info if this happening on your MBr.

I own an original AFM and have never liked the feel of the remakes, but I mostly chock it up to owning the same game for 15 years and putting 1000s of plays on it. I had never owned a MM and added a MMR to my collection a couple years ago and like the way it flips better than most originals I have played. I did change the flipper alignment from the way it shipped and messed around with the power settings, but they seem to have more snap than the AFMRs I have played.

Yeah, that was mine in the corner. Glad you enjoyed it!

I bought an AFMrLE. Played and enjoyed it for what it was for a couple of months. At that time I had never played an original so I had no idea how they compared on how they played. It would not launch correctly even after all the tweaks and the play field quality was substandard in regards to the clear coat and the colors. What I came to realize was that It really wasn't a "Remake" at all, but a Reproduction of the original. In order for it to be a Remake, it would have to be built like the original game, it was not. Cabinet wasn't the same, boards weren't the same, game control was different, lights were different. Now some of the differences were an improvement over the original. So in some respects you could say the game was "remastered" or a "Modernized Version" of the original, But the same as an original No Way. I know this now because I have a low play original machine. I really have the outmost appreciation for the "remake" games and I believe they have their place in the overall pinball market. If it weren't for the "remake" games I would not be able to own an original MM or AFM or even a CC. But we need to stop comparing the "remake" games to the originals. They are not the same in any fashion and should not be judged as such.

I don't know how you could be more far off base than with this statement. If one were to ask any rando on the street to play both an OG and a remake and ask them to judge which was the original and which was a shitty copy, I can tell you they would not be doing anything but tossing a coin and shouting "heads" because there is no real difference to the average rando on the street. I can guarantee if you ask them which was better, an OG MB, or a MBrCE they would shrug their shoulders and look puzzled. That's all CGC really wants with their remakes, that the average person dropping coin in one gets to play a game that makes them feel good about what they got for a buck. They are not out to please the top end of the market as much as they are just providing a game that others may not have played before. Your frustration that they play differently, have different quality issues, or are electronically and physically not identical to OG equipment is non sequitur. There is a market for remakes, even if they are shitty remakes, because CGC sold every one of the 1250 LE's of MB, and who knows how many CE and SE's on top of that. If they suck so bad, why did everyone want one?

There is just way too much non-objective tribalism on this subject.

The owners of the remakes want to feel that their machines are "just as good, if not better" than the originals.
The owners of the originals want to feel that their machines are "the real thing, not a poor imitation".

And so, we go back and forth, without anything being accomplished.

As stated by others above, it would be nice if several owners of original machines would provide pictures and measurements of the flipper travel so that we could have a more accurate (scientific) comparison between them. And therefore, see if adjustments can/should be made to make them match better.

I'm tired of the "well, they just don't feel the same to me" argument. As I've said before, it's common for various machines of the same title to feel different from each other - even when they were produced as part of the same run.

As for not being "original" because the boards are different...well, my EBD-LE has individual lamp sockets, while my brother's EBD-LE has pcb boards instead. They both came out of the factory like that. Is only one of those machines "original"?

I might be able to help out with this debate. I have an original HUO AFM that has been in my collection for many many years. Next to it I have a MM remake that is also HUO. Now I’m not any kinda of world class player or anything. I certainly know both these titles very well. For the record I don’t feel a difference when I go from one to the other. It is standard for me to rebuild flippers pops etc on games when they come into my game room. I like my games snappy. I have never felt any kind of problem on MMR. I will find time over the next few days to open them up and see if there are any differences with regards to size of plungers stops or plates.

Mike

The thing is, we're not random people.

I don't own either. I can't comment on MB vs MBr as I really didn't get to play original MB all that much. Played quite a bit of MM and MMr. Felt different but not off. I have played a TON of AFM and AFMr. AFMr feels very different (off) to me.

I have had my MMR for over 3 years now and its the most played game in my collection. My MMR flippers feel great and are very snappy. I have changed the power of the flipper strength on mine which I think a lot of owners of the remakes don't know they can do. The MMR on location here feels sluggish and not at all like mine and bet its due to not adjusting the flipper strength. My buddy has an original and I would put the feel of my remake over the original. My flippers are pointed more downwards and not aligned with the lanes which I have read how the originals were actually. Just over the years when those flippers got changed out they were aligned more with the lanes. I have played original MB and AFM and the remakes and sometimes the remake ones feel better and sometimes not..Really depends on the set up I guess. I love my MMR but understand why some would not.

No, "we" are not, but that your average coin dropper (coin-op's major user/customer base) is, was my point.

Okay, but have you played a TON of different original AFM machines? My point is that one original AFM can play very differently from another original AFM.

And similarly, a given AFMr might feel very different from (or very similar to) any given original AFM machine.

I've owned a WhiteWater for almost 25 years now, and have played MANY different WhiteWater machines. They all felt different in some ways, some just slightly different, some very different. That doesn't mean that my machine is "right" or "better", it's just more familiar. And the more different a machine is from mine, the more I notice it.

I think the more you are an "expert" on a particular title, the more you will notice subtle differences from machine to machine, and this is true when comparing original to original and original to remake.

Any thoughts on the "throw" of the flippers? The AFMr near me certainly doesn't get as high at the end of stroke as other games.

This is an important issue that CrazyLevi brought up. If the length of the throw is really measurably different between the original and remakes, this would be a big deal. Of course, the throw length is critical, but it may also be that the length is correct, but the resting position of the flippers is different.

I know that I have seen (independent of the remakes) some machines with the flippers in a "drooping" position when at rest, and other machines with the flippers more raised.

Unfortunately, I only have an MBr and don't have an original to compare it to. I would love to see some high-res (top down) pictures of the flippers in both resting and raised positions on an original MB, so that we can see if this is an issue or not (and also for AFM and MM).

If there is a real difference, maybe we can adjust it in some way to be more accurate. And if there isn't a difference, at least we can then put the theory to rest.

As a side note on flipper throw - there are different flipper stops that can affect the flipper throw length. Supposedly, this has already been looked into and the remakes are allegedly using the correct ones. However, if pictures were to show that the throw length is truly incorrect, this would be the first thing to re-examine.

And thats your opinion... I had both machines and just described my experience. Thats all.

I'll ask again and as others have requested, can an original AFM owner please post top down perspective photographs of the flippers at rest and fully extended. This way us remake owners can compare the amount of throw and if there is indeed any difference (would be even better if they could lay a protractor underneath to show the angles. Both at rest and fully extended flipper pics are required because different people start with different alignments.

All it takes is some digital calipers and a few measurements, and the mystery is solved

Just to be clear, I'm not assuming that just because the throws are equal that the flippers will suddenly feel like originals. My point is that I'd like to adjust mine to be same/similar to the original so that the shot making is as similar as it can be.

I also concur that feel is variable from one pin to the next even if it is the same title. I own a Getaway, and would like to think it is in the top 5-10% from a quality perspective given all that I've done to it both mechanically and aesthetically. Every time I go to TPF, there are at least 4 to 5 Getaway pins there and not only do none of them feel like they flip as good as mine, but none of them feel exactly like each other.

Only issue I’ve had with CGC flippers are the spring steel on the flipper buttons taking out shooter lane coils.

9F709082-769C-40E2-957A-BF4FA22E0726 (resized).jpeg

Ahh, yes, the "all the experts (like me) know" argument.

Except that if everyone were to actually know this, the thread wouldn't exist would it?

If the flipper stroke is too short (and maybe it is), wouldn't it be worthwhile to figure out WHY, and if something can be done about it?

Of course, then the owners of original machines would need to come up with some other reason why "everyone knows the remakes suck".

When the flipper power is adjusted in the CGC menu, what is actually being changed to produce a stronger/weaker flipper?

Are they dynamically changing the voltage to the coil? Changing the signal timing somehow?

I would have thought that a flipper's power would be determined by the coil being used and would then not be variable.

I'll get one posted soon. However, I broke a bushing in the left one last night and haven't fixed it yet. You'll notice it's slightly lower than the right. We'll call it close enough

Added pics. Stroke seems pretty high to me on the right. Left will match it when fixed. Someone post a remake pic
20210415_191912 (resized).jpg20210415_192004 (resized).jpg

Maybe it's because of your missing bushing, but your left flipper seems very strange.
The back part of the flipper seems to be out of alignment with the inland guide.

Also, are those original flipper bats? They look very thin compared to normal. Maybe it's just due to the angle of the picture and the flipper toppers.

I'm not trying to be super-critical or anything, I just want to make sure that we are looking at the correct stuff.

Thanks for posting the pics. Unfortunately I don't have an AFM, but I will post pics of my MBr soon.

Hopefully some other owners (original and remake) will post pictures of theirs (MM, AFM and MB) for comparison.

The bushing is still in there, I just noticed it was broken last night when I went to live catch and noticed it jiggling around when the ball hit it. I've had it less than 2 weeks, so I'm not certain about the flippers. I don't really care for the covers on them, will probably get rid of them at some point. I think the back of the flipper is aligned right at rest, and you're seeing the broken bushing showing itself when raised.

And here is the throw on the remake - LE with a couple of hundred plays (I think my left flipper may be slightly lower than the right at rest (not intentional).

IMG_5797 (resized).JPG

IMG_5798 (resized).JPG

Wow, the most shocking thing to me is the color difference. That must be a nude playfield? My right flipper is higher, although it is not by much.

Your right flipper has more worn out parts and has a longer range of motion than the left. Shorter plunger or coil stop strike plate or bushing screw is worn out. A plastic broken white through playfield bushing will not cause that much difference.

No, it is not the nude version of the playfield (that would have been a deal killer for me when I bought it), but I do have that area illuminated with UV lighting to react to my Titan GITD rings, and I also have Pinstadium lighting (set to a cool white color). You can also see that I've replaced the red star posts with florescent green and illuminated them.
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Here is a photo before Pinstadium lighting and other mods where iPhone 5 captured the orange a little better, but still not accurate.

pasted_image (resized).png

Possible for sure, like I said it's new to me and I haven't done much other than fix some switches. I'm not the best example but did want to see a comparison

Mr_Tantrum your "at rest" flipper position is pretty low. Normally the flippers should be aligned with the inlane, while yours are drooping downward.

This will have the result of making the extended position lower than normal as well. Though the total angle travelled should be the same.

If we can get a good sampling of pictures, we should be able to measure the travel angle and see if the remakes match the originals.

Here are my pics of my MBr. Sorry about the glare, but I still think they are useful.

20210415_213548 (resized).jpg

20210415_213550 (resized).jpg

Maybe it's the camera, but that doesn't look orange to me. When I was undecided between original or remake the nude would have been a deal breaker for me as well

The bats are aligned using the toothpick in the holes method (toothpick inside of rubber touching lower side plastic part of bat), and AFMr is designed to have a slight droop.

If anything, I think my right flipper is a little on the high side and needs to be adjusted down a mm or two to be properly aligned to the guide hole.

The nude is quite obvious when you see it (which my playfield is not), but you are right in that my iPhone 5 camera is definitely washing out the orange coloring.

pasted_image (resized).png

They are supposed to be drooped. See NeilMcRae ’s post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/it-s-time-to-talk-about-cgc-remake-flippers-/page/2#post-6224796

Heres the thing - i would assume most original AFM/MM/MB's by now have fully re-placed flipper mechs. Maybe original coils, but everything else, including baseplates replaced. Definitely any restored AFM/MM/MB's would have.

Maybe just the baseplate is still the same on some original AFM's.

I would also assume most of the flipper re-builds are using identical parts to the remakes - same factory/distributor etc etc. In fact woudnt PPS be supplying mechs for the remakes?

So where's the difference if any? The coil?

Has anywone tried replacing the complete mechs for the CGC remakes to the ones available for sale (that would be in most original AFM/MM/MB)?

Curious - I might give it a go.