(Topic ID: 85849)

It really is all about 1990's Bally Williams Pinball~

By Strange

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Strange
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20
#1 10 years ago

After playing Scared Stiff at a bar today I'm always in awe at the production values Bally Williams was throwing at pinball in the 1990's. That was just a special era and the momentum was phenomenal. I like the modern Sterns, but they just don't match up nearly as well in terms of just "essence", quality, and originality from the great 90's Bally Williams games. With such past masterpieces made, I can't ever see myself throwing real money on modern pinball, still haven't started my pin collection yet. With Jersey Jack, they are really doing some innovative things, but I can't help but have a gimmicky taste in my mouth after Wizard of Oz. Their machine was high quality, yet it seems they are just reaching too far on certain novelties~

Anyways I love 1990's Bally Williams games and the cream of the crop fully deserve to have high end restorations done to them because they are pieces of Pop Art. I'm excited to get my hands on some of these in the future and to give them the true respect they deserve...

#2 10 years ago

I'm glad I was in the hobby during this magical and historic time.

Myself and many others were able to snag a bunch of these gems for practically nothing.

#3 10 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

I'm glad I was in the hobby during this magical time and was able to snag a bunch of these gems.

I was a teenager during most of that time and obsessed with video games. Can't remember playing any pinball from what I can remember. These things have aged so beautifully. They are worth what they go for.

#4 10 years ago

I think you just have tunnel vision. TSSP, LOTR, AC/DC, Tron, Metallica, ST, SM, and FG all have equal or superior production value to most B/W games from the '90s. The biggest advantage you get from a lot of the modern Sterns is that they have much deeper rulesets and the code is more friendly for long term ownership.

I don't prefer one era or manufacturer over any other, but if you're ignoring the more recent efforts in pinball, you're shutting yourself out from some amazing games.

#5 10 years ago

After cranking on No Fear for the last half hour, I might have to agree.

#6 10 years ago

I decided to dig my old CFTBL out of storage this weekend and have been playing it constantly
cannot say I do that with Stern games

#7 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

......if you're ignoring the more recent efforts in pinball, you're shutting yourself out from some amazing games.

The biggest recent effort would be the deeper rulesets, that's about it.

It took pinball *14 years* to bring out another color display since P2K thanks to Color DMD and JJP.

These "amazing" games are just the result of recycled ideas stolen from the 90's.

The industry has been stubborn about changing the blueprint. This is why people are now excited about 20 year old WMS games resurfacing.

#8 10 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

The biggest recent effort would be the deeper rulesets, that's about it.

AC/DC and TRON are absolutely Amazeballs, to never think about owning either of those would be considered pretty silly!

#9 10 years ago

I tried to add JD as another related game, but the server told me I could only choose Twilight Zone. Maybe I'll just play some Dredd and watch some zone.

Meanwhile we have had more tremors in this area of Ca. in the last 24 hours than the total number I remember from before. My daughter is up here and not used to such earthly movement. It's been like every hour or so we are getting a blast. Better than all at once I guess. All my machines have shakers tonight!

#10 10 years ago

OK Done with No Fear. Time to go bump Nimblepin from Tron's leaderboard.

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

AC/DC and TRON are absolutely Amazeballs, to never think about owning either of those would be considered pretty silly!

I never said I didn't like the deep rulesets.

I own LOTR and SM just for that reason, but that's about it.

Deep rulesets started around 2003 with TSPP, everything else on the game has remained the same.

Have collectors allowed themselves to become blinded by this disruption in innovation, in exchange for a longer and more challenging game?

The answer, in my opinion is, yes!

#12 10 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

everything else on the game has remained the same.

I do really enjoy all the light color changing Stern and JJP are doing, whether its GI or inserts....cool stuff.

The TRON ramp lighting still brings a smile to my face every time I play it. Hulk toy on Avengers is pretty cool, moves side to side+arms up and down to bat balls around, cant think of anything similar to that.

TRON and IM for instance dont have deep rules and are a blast, the heart pounding fun factor is better than ever.

Lots of fun stuff&ideas are still put into pinball, is it innovative? Its arguable.

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

the heart pounding fun factor

Go for the win! lol
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#14 10 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Lots of fun stuff&ideas are still put into pinball, is it innovative? Its arguable.

Capcom was about to give WMS some serious "innovative" competition.

They were experimenting with some wild, non-restrictive ideas.

I visited with Rob Morrison (designer of BBB) when he lived in GA and he showed me some stuff that just blew me away!

Drawings of some wicked toys that to this day, I've never seen in a pinball machine.

These guys, led by Mark Ritchie, were years ahead of WMS with their thinking.

I honestly believe that they were about to change the game.

-1
#15 10 years ago

Actually I would disagree with this being the 'heyday' of pinball design.

Post 1992, WMS tables became overcomplicated, unreliable and hated by operators. Throw in the demise of arcades in general and pinball had little or no relevance to market. I guess the question now is.... could a modern stern survive the amount of games relative to fixing/downtime that tables did in the 70's/80s?

Pinball machines are gaming devices designed to make money. I could never work out why Williams decided to innovate by destroying the core reason for the machines existing in the first place.

#16 10 years ago

I like them from most 70s+ eras, and most manufactures, but wpc's are the cream of the crop no doubt, and the pinnacle to date for pinball design an innovation. Take a look at what most people at pinside have in he their collection predominantly, or what they have on their wish list.

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

I think you just have tunnel vision. TSSP, LOTR, AC/DC, Tron, Metallica, ST, SM, and FG all have equal or superior production value to most B/W games from the '90s. The biggest advantage you get from a lot of the modern Sterns is that they have much deeper rulesets and the code is more friendly for long term ownership.
I don't prefer one era or manufacturer over any other, but if you're ignoring the more recent efforts in pinball, you're shutting yourself out from some amazing games.

I too believe this, I went from owning all BW. I had T2, BOP, CFTBL, TOTAN, STTNG, IJ, TZ (in other words a lot of the heavy hitters) so it's not like I had only owned marginal BW titles. And while I didn't dislike them at all. When push came to shove, I own all Stern and have not sold one Stern I have owned.

I own POTC, SM, Tron, XM LE, STLE and ACDC premium.

I'm not saying I would never sell my Stern, but to me they are just as good as the best BW.

It would be hard for me to argue that POTC is better than TZ (it's not). But to me, POTC is fun to play, have great sound, lights, call outs. Deep rules etc.. Plus I have owned POTC for 8 years and have not replaced one part or had to fix anything.

TZ was hard to keep running, I mean it was a 20 year old game been somewhere likely in a bar for 10 years before I got it. Even after a couple of shop jobs it was still was not 100%. Same with IJ, great game but POA was flakey. STTNG was out of order more than it was in order.

I sold CFTBL for a year, when I went on my new Stern kick (with Tron XM). I thought I missed Creetch so I got another one. I couldn't sell that game fast enough. Nice looking game but the rules were too simple it was kind of meh when I think of it next to ACDC or Tron or STLE.

I realize TOTAN is a special game, I love the toys such as disappearing magnet, the subways the cage save trick skill shot. But to me the game play was just OK. I think Stern is way behind when it comes to TOTAN type of design details. I think Stern is kind of cookie cutter. But to me when the rules are working and the ball is flowing like in ACDC or Tron. I can overlook the fact that Tron is a fairly simple game to manufacture or has a small amount of unique parts. Stern sometimes has the magic of putting the little things together and making them work.

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

Take a look at what most people at pinside have in he their collection predominantly, or what they have on their wish list.

I think some of that is true but part of it is what people are exposed to. I've seen and played most every WPC title out there and a lot of the early solid state games. The same cannot be said for most pins prior to about 1979. If I'd ever seen an old EM Fireball or Atlantis, they would probably be in my wishlist too.

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from Piparoo:

I think some of that is true but part of it is what people are exposed to. I've seen and played most every WPC title out there and a lot of the early solid state games. The same cannot be said for most pins prior to about 1979. If I'd ever seen an old EM Fireball or Atlantis, they would probably be in my wishlist too.

My take on this.... It's much easier to play New Super Mario Bros on the Wii when you have played Super Mario Bros on the NES, but much harder to go back and play Super Mario Bros on the NES when you have only played New Super Mario Bros on the Wii.

Older games tend to be easier to initially play but require deep understanding of the rules to maximize scoring, when the WPC era games tend to be linear in design and scoring opportunity but with more complex rules, most of which are totally pointless to scoring. Modes and multiball usually are the only things worth doing.

Ie older games are easier to play in the short/medium term but harder in the longterm. WPC games are harder in short term but becomes easier with play. Remembering that depth of rules does not mean the same as depth of gameplay.

Maybe this is why the initially simpler WPC games tend to be the most expensive and popular? Eg AFM or MM and 'hit that big thing to get points' etc.

Or maybe it's much much simpler. People think more == better. Which, sadly, only proves that marketing does work.

#20 10 years ago

To summarize what I was trying to say last night, I am down to just one Stern machine, but my assortment of Bally/Willams games continues to grow. These classics never get old, but it is nice to have a variety of machines from all different manufacturers.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

I think you just have tunnel vision. TSSP, LOTR, AC/DC, Tron, Metallica, ST, SM, and FG all have equal or superior production value to most B/W games from the '90s.

I couldn't disagree more. Rules, toys, fun? Stern can play with the best, undoubtedly. Production value? Hardly. I mean, you seriously put LOTR on that list? Awesome game, no question. But the production values on it are really pretty poor. The print quality of the cabinet alone takes it off the playing field for this conversation. Even the maligned and printed by scabs Monster Bash decals blow LOTR cabinets out of the water. That's not even getting to the problems on the LOTR playfield. That's ignoring the sound quality. Good toys, excellent rules, and that's why it's a great game. But for people who really care about things like art quality it's not in the conversation.

That goes for every single Stern, even Metallica's hand drawn art (good work Stern, do more!) is printed with poorly screened dithered dots, and can't touch the Scared Stiff in the opening post. I don't know why, they must have a deal with someone or own their own old printing equipment or something, there's no reason it has to look that bad.

Just to be clear, I'm not a Stern hater, I like all games. But I can't help but notice the print and art quality, it's just unescapable for me. It's why I love my 3rd gen Tron decaled cabinet way more than a first gen direct print. The quality of the decal prints is leaps and beyond better, not even close. I know some people like the screened cabinet better, hey more power to you, but I can't stand looking at it after knowing how much better looking the decals are.

Quoted from o-din:

it is nice to have a variety of machines from all different manufacturers.

This to me is the best way to go!

#22 10 years ago

Think the OP would feel quite comfy in my gameroom

#23 10 years ago

We are all quick to pick sides. Both are enjoyable, but with my limited pinball budget I'm unlikely to ever own a "new" stern.

One question I've often wondered about though, new pricing. Has anyone adjusted Prices from the late 80s and 90s for inflation and compared them to Sterns pricing for new models today? While I understand the volume of the business is different than it was in it's heyday, it still seems as though Sterns has had a relative monopoly and been increasing prices accordingly. Now that there's competition, they're taking this pricing as the norm (which makes sense since the overhead is higher for smaller run manufacturers), and we are all broke in the process.

I guess I just wish someone could make some money selling me a nice new machine for $3500, say. Until then I'll still enjoy my 4 machine collection which in total is less than the cost of a single LE machine...

In short, I'd be a bigger fan of Stern if I could afford one. I'm not interested in Pros. I find the fact that they make the gameplay unnecessarily different (from a cost saving perspective) insulting.

#24 10 years ago

1990's Bally Williams are keepers, that's all I'm saying. Maybe it's not the worst thing to buy a good Stern, but I just don't see myself keeping one long term.

Sterns - you hit em and quit em. BWs - you marry em.

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from Strange:

1990's Bally Williams are keepers, that's all I'm saying. Maybe it's not the worst thing to buy a good Stern, but I just don't see myself keeping one long term.
Sterns - you hit em and quit em. BWs - you marry em.

Amen brother! Especially at these prices......sheesh!

I'm glad I was in the right place at the right time.

#26 10 years ago

Fortunately so many Sterns have been sold (if not primarily) to the HUO market. You'll be able to pick up an HUO Stern for years to come. HUO pins prior to the shift in the late 90's are far and few between ... they are truly a rare breed.

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from Strange:

1990's Bally Williams are keepers, that's all I'm saying. Maybe it's not the worst thing to buy a good Stern, but I just don't see myself keeping one long term.
Sterns - you hit em and quit em. BWs - you marry em.

They built some great machines back then. But I think others are also building great machines. Some of the newer Stern games are fantastic. And JJP has put out a heck of a game with amazing code. I like them all. From classics to modern day. Some days I want the feel of the early 90s, but not every day. Sometimes I want the brutal face slap that is Tron, and other day I want the brutal face slap of BSD. They both slap me, but in totally different ways.

And nobody needs to agree with me. Just because I like multiple generations of machines doesn't mean you have to. Fill your space with the ones you like to play. And then play on.

11
#28 10 years ago

I go through phases
Started William Bally
Then to almost all sterns
Then to a lot of DE Sega
Now it's back to William Bally but I miss the sterns

Moral of the story good pinball is good pinball

#29 10 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I couldn't disagree more. Rules, toys, fun? Stern can play with the best, undoubtedly. Production value? Hardly. I mean, you seriously put LOTR on that list? Awesome game, no question. But the production values on it are really pretty poor. The print quality of the cabinet alone takes it off the playing field for this conversation. Even the maligned and printed by scabs Monster Bash decals blow LOTR cabinets out of the water. That's not even getting to the problems on the LOTR playfield. That's ignoring the sound quality. Good toys, excellent rules, and that's why it's a great game. But for people who really care about things like art quality it's not in the conversation.
That goes for every single Stern, even Metallica's hand drawn art (good work Stern, do more!) is printed with poorly screened dithered dots, and can't touch the Scared Stiff in the opening post. I don't know why, they must have a deal with someone or own their own old printing equipment or something, there's no reason it has to look that bad.
Just to be clear, I'm not a Stern hater, I like all games. But I can't help but notice the print and art quality, it's just unescapable for me. It's why I love my 3rd gen Tron decaled cabinet way more than a first gen direct print. The quality of the decal prints is leaps and beyond better, not even close. I know some people like the screened cabinet better, hey more power to you, but I can't stand looking at it after knowing how much better looking the decals are.

This to me is the best way to go!

That's fine. I'd have a hard time enjoying pinball if print quality deterred me from a masterpiece like LOTR though.

#30 10 years ago

For me? Pretty much. But I can't spend the coin on on the new stuff. What Stern is doing right now is amazing. JJP is carrying the torch for B/W. The 90's were the "muscle car" era of pinball. A new mustang smokes an older one, but I'm nostalgic. I'll take a classic any day.

#31 10 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I go through phases
Started William Bally
Then to almost all sterns
Then to a lot of DE Sega
Now it's back to William Bally but I miss the sterns
Moral of the story good pinball is good pinball

This is the best post in the thread. I'm on a big 80's kick at the moment, but I acknowledge Stern pumps out awesome games with good deep rules, blistering play speed, and some reasonable innovation like color changing LEDs tied to the code.

#32 10 years ago

As Magic_Mike has said, for many - right place, right time. I always seem to get into hobbies a bit too late. I got into Hammond organs a few years back, and a few years after the price of a B3 or C3 shot through the roof - and I learned how to work on those too. I've got a nice collection, but the games of this era, or the nicer condition Bally SS from the early 80's have all gone up beyond what I imagine was pennies on the dollar a few years back. Hearing about this machine and that machine at 1/3 to 1/2 or less what the same machine - except a few years older and more worn! - is costing now. Lucky to have machines at all, but I enjoy lots of what is out there.

Every era has its finer points and I enjoy my time with a friend's EM collection for similar but different reasons. Really, any time I play against someone I think any machine we play on is fun and challenging.

As for innovation, some things work and don't need to be replaced, others can be improved. Some of the changes, like color changing leds are nice and can even play into understanding what the game is doing but are ultimately superficial. What matters are targets and objectives in any game. It seems that the best innovations are when designers make those targets and objectives achievable but challenging. It also doesn't seem to hurt throwing in humor and good sound. I've got ideas for new tech, but it's probably something someone else has thought about, tried, or implemented and I am unawares.

End-game, pdxmonkey already said it...

#33 10 years ago

It's really all about trolling on a Sunday.

#34 10 years ago

I have nearly the exact opposite opinion.
I started collecting in 1998 and owned most/all of the B/W titles. A lot of them are so shallow with the rules, they are dreadful to own for over a couple months. WCS94, any JPOP game, etc....
I still own a JD and JM and RFM and SWEP1 [suxx], but have sold all the rest and haven't really missed them. AFM/MM/TZ being the best of the bunch IMHO.

The 2010+ sterns are just phenomenal except for Avengers. Code is what keeps you coming back for the long term and Sterns are filling that aspect perfectly.
As for build quality, the higher resolution decals and plastics are on par with Williams and I don't really get the complaints of the build quality of the cabinets. We refurb a LOT of stern games and I've never seen one with split sides, sagging bottom syndrome from the transformer and don't have any more board problems than Williams did.

WoZ is equally deep with things to do, but I don't like the layout and the way it shoots.

As for innovation, yeah, modern Sterns still look like 90's Williams but if it ain't broke - why fix it? They are more profitable than ever right now.

#35 10 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

That's fine. I'd have a hard time enjoying pinball if print quality deterred me from a masterpiece like LOTR though.

Sure, of course, it's a great game. And for me gameplay is key, I buy pins to play them, not to stare at them. I just also enjoy that aspect, and owning something like Scared Stiff is about the whole package, not just the gameplay. Which is obviously pretty shallow compared to LOTR.

Quoted from Strange:

Sterns - you hit em and quit em. BWs - you marry em.

You could say the opposite though when it comes to gameplay. Many BWs are play, beat, get bored. Sterns have a lot more depth, and when it comes to home use, instead of just pumping quarters in an arcade, that's a big deal.

That's why I say own them both if you possibly can, no need to restrict yourself to one era or manufacturer unless you're really space constrained.

Quoted from dgoett:

As for build quality, the higher resolution decals and plastics are on par with Williams

This sadly isn't remotely true though. The plastics especially, the decals are hit and miss. The decals on my 4th gen Tron are awesome, they just kill the direct print cab of the 1st gen.

#36 10 years ago

Seems a lot like politics. You can vote for the person or for the party. True, the majority of the people I vote for are in the same party, but not all of them by any means. The majority of my pins are B/W, but I've enjoyed my others (Stern, JJP, DE and Gottlieb) just as much.

1 week later
#37 9 years ago

For me the Bally/Williams games are awesome. I like the design of those machines and how they play. Of course most stern games have more complex rules, but i just don't like how they feel to play. For me the B/W games feel more solid than any stern. The sterns feel too hard and rattly, toy-ish. I have an AC/DC which i like because of the rules and complexity, but don't like too much because of how the pinball feels. Won't buy any more Sterns and hope for good PPS remakes which feel like B/W

#38 9 years ago
Quoted from OlDirty:

For me the Bally/Williams games are awesome. I like the design of those machines and how they play. Of course most stern games have more complex rules, but i just don't like how they feel to play. For me the B/W games feel more solid than any stern. The sterns feel too hard and rattly, toy-ish. I have an AC/DC which i like because of the rules and complexity, but don't like too much because of how the pinball feels. Won't buy any more Sterns and hope for good PPS remakes which feel like B/W

Amen brother. I've only been into pinball a couple of years and have yet to start my collection, but I already know BW is all I'm gonna focus on. Stern doesn't have the right philosophy behind how they make games and Jersey Jack is just too much too late. I'll always play the crap out of any pinball, sure, but to go all out and to take a machine into your home and treat it like a baby, it better be pretty darn special.

What I'm really looking forward to these next few years are those J-Pop machines. Hopefully they can hold their own against his past BW masterpieces.

#39 9 years ago

I'll say it again...you're really limiting yourself and are ignoring some fantastic pinball experiences. There's no reason to focus in on a single manufacturer when all of them have provided great games.

And to be honest, I have had more reliability issues with my B/W games than I have had with Stern games. Sure, some of that is age and mileage, but Stern games are no "less solid" than the B/W games. They do feel different, but not to an insane degree. Of course all manufacturers have a unique feel, but it's more like the difference between a Toyota and a Honda than a BMW and a Gremlin.

#40 9 years ago

The best Bally Williams are works of art. Everything else are just games.

#41 9 years ago

^^ so true. My TOTAN is an absolute work of art.

#42 9 years ago
Quoted from Strange:

Amen brother. I've only been into pinball a couple of years and have yet to start my collection, but I already know BW is all I'm gonna focus on.

Never say never. I agree the production value of Sterns is behind W/B, but I don't buy machines just because that; I buy them if they are fun to play. A fun game is a fun game whoever makes it.

#43 9 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

I'll say it again...you're really limiting yourself and are ignoring some fantastic pinball experiences. There's no reason to focus in on a single manufacturer when all of them have provided great games.

I'm limited to the pins I can afford. I'll play modern Sterns on location, but I'll only own Williams/Bally (or DE) and that's simply for financial reasons.

#44 9 years ago

I've always been a much bigger fan of B/W games than anything else and it's not from nostalgia. I got into pinball in '06, so it was all new to me. I also like to have games from a variety of different manufacturers. Right now I have games by Gottlieb, B/W, Bally, Data East, Stern, Alvin G and soon Spooky. B/W is the pinnacle for me and they made the most games that are the 'total package'. The only clear advantage that some Stern games have over MOST B/W games is the rules and now arguably the lighting. Other than that, they are just simply produced on the cheap and feel more like a toy to me. That's not to say that there aren't a few great Stern games that hands-down trump a lot of the secondary B/W titles. I just wouldn't feel good about spending AFM/MB/MM money on a Stern.

#45 9 years ago

The debate on this will never end, it's like asking what's good art, too many different perspectives and loyaties to ever get any kind of consensus.

I'm a much bigger fan of the 90's BW games than I am of the new Sterns, been in the hobby since 1988, so I've gone from System 11's being brand new to WOZ, and when BW closed it's doors I was very happy that Stern was still around making games. However, as time went on I realized more and more that Stern was not turning out a comparable product, in fact they were going backwards in many ways, and IMO have not done enough innovation. That's not to say that they didn't turn out some good games, just always seems to be something lacking when compared to the BW's

Perhaps that is at the core of it, BW was always pushing the envelope, the culture was to create and innovate, not so sure that has been the case at Stern, they take a much more pragmatic view of the business. Now BW is long gone, and Stern is still here, so you could argue that from a business standpoint Stern has gotten it right, but collectors care about the games, and from that view, I know which I think are superior.

#46 9 years ago

Bally Williams:

adriana-lima-2.jpgadriana-lima-2.jpg

Stern:

justin-bieber-hospital-instagram.jpgjustin-bieber-hospital-instagram.jpg

#47 9 years ago

Ahhhh! My eyes!

I'm in the B/W boat. Own 2 Sys 3 Gottliebs as well and they just don't feel right comparatively.

I haven't played WOZ enough to comment on it.

I agree with the poster that said Stern games have a cheap toy feel to them. Some of the earlier Sterns are better. I would own LOTR if one came along at the right price. It's all preference, I guess. I wouldn't be down on anyone who has a different opinion than me on the matter. I don't need a 6' deep rule set and most of the 90s B/W games have enough of a difficulty factor to keep them entertaining.

Gotta take everything in context, as well. 90s BW games had to be more solid and have shorter ball times because they were designed to eat quarters in and stand up to an Arcade invironment. New Sterns are built less solid and have deeper rule sets and longer ball times because now home ownership is a large part of their sales. Game better stay interesting for that much scratch!

That's my $.02, anyway

#48 9 years ago

The more I read the OP's posts, the more I think he's just stirring the pot. Or are there really pinheads out there that reject every game that doesn't have a Bally/Williams sticker on the cabinet and wasn't made between '93 and '99? Anyway, this is the last time I'll bump this silly thread.

#49 9 years ago

haha, yeah I was trolling on my last post. I'm just goofing.

Actually I do really like Stern's Spiderman a whole heck of a lot. I think it plays fantastic. Steve Ritchie's best game IMO. Would love have the Black Limited Edition version of it.

#50 9 years ago
Quoted from Piparoo:

The more I read the OP's posts, the more I think he's just stirring the pot. Or are there really pinheads out there that reject every game that doesn't have a Bally/Williams sticker on the cabinet and wasn't made between '93 and '99? Anyway, this is the last time I'll bump this silly thread.

I think he was just making the point that BW games are pretty and shallow. ;0

j/k

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Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
Other
From: $ 27.00
Boards
KAHR.US Circuits
Boards
$ 1.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Alley
Pinball Machine
$ 1.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Alley
Pinball Machine
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
Other
From: $ 399.95
Boards
PinSound
Boards
$ 219.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Lit Frames
Decorations
16,000
Machine - For Sale
Bristow, VA
$ 75.00
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
Eproms
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
Avid Creations Wireforms
Other
$ 44.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PinBoss Mods
Toys/Add-ons
$ 259.99
Cabinet - Toppers
Lighted Pinball Mods
Toppers
$ 110.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
pinballmod
Toys/Add-ons
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