(Topic ID: 100900)

+5V blowing on Special Force Power Board

By wylcot

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by wylcot
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There are 81 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 years ago

I'm changing this topic as things have evolved, and I had no answer anyway... (I was probably too vague).

So when I switch that machine on, the +5V fuse on the power board blows straight away.
The playfield is partially lit and there's a litlle dot lit at the bottom left of the left display.

My other problem is that I struggle to view the pdf manual caught on IPDB in high quality.

Could someone help me with that? Either by giving me a lead on where to look, or with a better scan of the manual...
I'll try it on another computer anyway...

IMG_20140821_235638062.jpgIMG_20140821_235638062.jpg
IMG_20140821_235650685.jpgIMG_20140821_235650685.jpg

2 weeks later
#2 9 years ago

Hello. I had the same problem with my pin. This is what I did unplug every thing from power board except the the molex plug below the 5v fuse. This molex goes to the transformer and there is a small 2 pin ground next to it leave this one pluged in also. Put in 5v fuse and power on if it blows you know it's the power board.
My problem was the 4 black rectifier diodes to the right of the 5v fuse and to the right of bridge. I use radio shack part
Model:276-1661 | Catalog #: 276-1661 6a 50v rectifier diode. Replaced all 4 'but you can google how to test them. Fired it if again with just the 2 molex plugged and see if it blows. Mine didn't so I plugged all the rest in and
And it started right up.
The pic show resistor r5 a little burnt looking and your missing fuse.
Good luck.

#3 9 years ago
Quoted from mancavesupply:

Hello. I had the same problem with my pin. This is what I did unplug every thing from power board except the the molex plug below the 5v fuse. This molex goes to the transformer and there is a small 2 pin ground next to it leave this one pluged in also. Put in 5v fuse and power on if it blows you know it's the power board.
My problem was the 4 black rectifier diodes to the right of the 5v fuse and to the right of bridge. I use radio shack part
Model:276-1661 | Catalog #: 276-1661 6a 50v rectifier diode. Replaced all 4 'but you can google how to test them. Fired it if again with just the 2 molex plugged and see if it blows. Mine didn't so I plugged all the rest in and
And it started right up.
The pic show resistor r5 a little burnt looking and your missing fuse.
Good luck.

Very nice!
You can test those diodes with your DMM.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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#4 9 years ago

Looks like R5 is 22K 1/2 watt 5%. 1N4004 for the four diodes.

Testing diodes is pretty simple, but you really need to unsolder one end to get an accurate reading. Think of diodes as a one-way gate for electrical signal. The power will flow one way, but not the other.

Set DMM to diode setting. Put the black lead on the side of the diode that has the band on it, and the red lead on the other side. The DMM should give you some numerical reading. When you switch the leads, the DMM should say OL.

If you get a reading both ways, the diode is bad. However, if you can find them locally I normally just replace them. The 1N4004s are usually cheap, and you've already unsoldered one end any way.

#5 9 years ago

Those diodes and that resistor is in the HV section. When that resistor burns, it usually means the HV transistors are shorted.

Check the 12v bridge. I think it is the four larger diodes near the top middle.

#6 9 years ago

I would bet that the four larger diodes are not a Radio Shack item. If you have to order them and the resistor, go ahead and order the two large capacitors too.

They are coming up on 30 years old and can dry up and fail. If I am not mistaken, one of them is the filter cap for the 5 volts, at least it is on the earlier version of this board. Just change them out and never have to worry about them again.

#7 9 years ago

You need to do diode tests on all of them. You can test the HV transistors too.

I wouldn't blindly replace diodes or transistors unless there is evidence they have gotten extremely warm.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I wouldn't blindly replace diodes or transistors unless there is evidence they have gotten extremely warm.

My advice was based solely on the 1N4004 diodes. They are cheap and you're going to have to remove one end from the circuit to test properly. Most soldering novices, and I include myself, can find it easier to simply replace those since the leads might be cut really short. However, if you can resolder them, go for it.

Transistors will normally test just fine in circuit, but I don't see any on this board.

#9 9 years ago

There is three transistors for the HV section. Burnt resistors are a tell tale sign they went short. Typically all three go out at the same time.

Bridge rectifier diodes can be safely tested in circuit even though capacitors may stay charging from the dmm leads. You are basically just looking for a shorted diode (which blows the fuse) . Open diodes always visually look wasted.

#10 9 years ago

Wow! What a pleasure to discover all these replies!
Thanks a lot!
I'm not a native English speaker, and not an expert in this technical field, so I'll need a bit of time to analyze and understand those two sides of all that, but i'm on it!

the first thing I did was to replace that R5 resistor.
It actually burnt when the old man who sold it to me switched it on to show me the situation...

I might have a few diodes of that kind in store, so with a bit of luck, I could play that game quickly!

Thanks again!

#11 9 years ago

Dammit, I only have 1n4007s... And I can't seem to find 1n4004s around here...
I was pretty sure I had some 4004s, that's a shame.
I'll try that retail store I visit sometimes...
Not much luck today :/

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

I'm not a native English speaker, and not an expert in this technical field, so I'll need a bit of time to analyze and understand those two sides of all that, but i'm on it!

You could have fooled anyone. Tres bien! And that is where my French starts and ends, despite two years of it in school and multiple trips to France.

You can also use 1n4007s in this case. Actually, you can use 1n4007s ANYWHERE that a 1n400x would go. The tolerances and specs/leakage of them are all identical these days, and the 1n4007's have the advantage of a higher voltage rating that can used in just about any application. I buy them exclusively. All you need are 1n4007's and 2n914/2n4148's for about 95% of all the diodes in a pinball machine.

#13 9 years ago

Alright! Great!
I'll give you French lessons about pinballs if you need (i'm actually an English teacher, so that might be why i could have fooled you).

Thanks for the info. I only had three anyway, so that's the occasion of renewing my stock, and knowing they can fit anywhere.

So should i change the transistors too, you think?

#14 9 years ago

Transistors can be easily checked with a digital multi-meter, without being removed from the circuit board. If you don't have one already, buy one. This will not be your last repair.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

Alright! Great!
I'll give you French lessons about pinballs if you need (i'm actually an English teacher, so that might be why i could have fooled you).
Thanks for the info. I only had three anyway, so that's the occasion of renewing my stock, and knowing they can fit anywhere.
So should i change the transistors too, you think?

Watch a YouTube video on how to test transistors with a DMM on diode test.

Same goes for testing diodes (the four big ones top middle for 5v) with DMM.

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

Alright! Great!
I'll give you French lessons about pinballs if you need (i'm actually an English teacher, so that might be why i could have fooled you).

That's cheating!

For transistors, you just need to know if they are NPN or PNP type and where the Emitter, Base, and Collector are located, unless it is a BJT transistor, then it is Gate, Source and Drain. In this diagram, the arrow indicates the direct of the flow. It acts like a diode, so you set your meter to Diode test, and check continuity in both directions. You should get readings similar to a diode in the arrow directions, and INF in the opposite direction. If you get 0 or INF on your meter in both directions, the transistor is faulty.

transistor-symbols.pngtransistor-symbols.png

mos3.pngmos3.png

#17 9 years ago

Okay! I'll check that right now.

I've replaced the four 1N4004s with 1N4007, and it does nothing.
Here's what I still get.

IMG_20140912_175951521.jpgIMG_20140912_175951521.jpg

My main concern is that I have nothing to plug in that 2-pin socket, there, on the left...

IMG_20140912_180014475.jpgIMG_20140912_180014475.jpg

There was nothing plugged in that when I got it, but it wasn't working either...
I do have a plug that could fit, with only one cable in it, but it's way too short to reach it...
And as I hardly can read that tech doc...

#18 9 years ago

It's hard to tell from the online manual, but it looks like J6 is the power output to the backbox GI and some other lamps.

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2272/Bally_1986_Special_Force_Manual.pdf

#19 9 years ago

Check C1, the huge 10,000uf Cap for shorts. Also, your +5v regulator, U1, may be shorted out, explaining the reason you keep blowing fuses. The 4 diodes you replaced were for the high-voltage section for your displays, so that isn't going to help you with the game booting. The diodes you need to check are D1-D4. They are labeled as "MR751x4". I don't know what the equivalent or cross-reference for those parts are, but it is possible that 1n4007's would work there if there is a short. That is the most likely scenario here that there is a bad diode in that section.

On the power supply, pull all the fuses EXCEPT the +5v (Fuse #3 - 6amp). Also disconnect all the power cables going to the MPU and other various boards. All you want are the AC connections going to the PSU board. If the +5v fuse still blows, then you have an issue with those parts I mentioned. If it does not blow, and you can test +5v at the test point on the board, then the issue is a short on the MPU or somewhere else that uses that +5v logic power.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

Check C1, the huge 10,000uf Cap for shorts. Also, your +5v regulator, U1, may be shorted out, explaining the reason you keep blowing fuses. The 4 diodes you replaced were for the high-voltage section for your displays, so that isn't going to help you with the game booting. The diodes you need to check are D1-D4. They are labeled as "MR751x4". I don't know what the equivalent or cross-reference for those parts are, but it is possible that 1n4007's would work there if there is a short. That is the most likely scenario here that there is a bad diode in that section.
On the power supply, pull all the fuses EXCEPT the +5v (Fuse #3 - 6amp). Also disconnect all the power cables going to the MPU and other various boards. All you want are the AC connections going to the PSU board. If the +5v fuse still blows, then you have an issue with those parts I mentioned. If it does not blow, and you can test +5v at the test point on the board, then the issue is a short on the MPU or somewhere else that uses that +5v logic power.

Exactly.

Like I said above, one of those large capacitors, filters the 5 volts for the logic on the MPU board. After verifying the transistors and diodes are good and have replaced the bad resistor, check those capacitors.

Bottom line, if that 5 volt filter cap isn't working correctly, the MPU will not boot up. Worst case, it totally fails and fries all the chips on the MPU board.

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

My main concern is that I have nothing to plug in that 2-pin socket, there, on the left...

There was nothing plugged in that when I got it, but it wasn't working either...
I do have a plug that could fit, with only one cable in it, but it's way too short to reach it...
And as I hardly can read that tech doc...

J6 is not used on "Special Force".

#22 9 years ago

Oh but I forgot to tell you, then : the fuses are okay now. No fuse blows anymore.
So these pictures are what happens now : I switch it on, no sound, just this 8 appearing on the left display, and dots on the right one...

And thanks for the J6 info. That's a relief. At least, i know there's nothing on this side.

#23 9 years ago

derp

what does the LED on the MPU do?

#24 9 years ago

It does absolutely nothing.
No lighting at no point...

#25 9 years ago

you need to figure out if your power board is making +5vdc. check the regulator input and output. input 12v output 5v

#26 9 years ago

Alright!
I'll have to figure out how to do that.

I'll study the tech doc!
Should I check the output of the power board with a DMM??

#27 9 years ago

From Pinwiki: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally_6803

TP1 - 5VDC
TP2 - 190VDC, adjustable via the trim pot
TP3 - 230VDC, unregulated
TP4 - 43VDC
TP5 - 14VDC, unregulated
TP6 - 11VAC
TP7 - 11VAC
TP8 - 6.3VAC
TP9 - 6.3VAC
TP10 - Ground

#28 9 years ago

Now that's a hell of a link you just sent here!!
That's really interesting!!!

And so that's what these little loops are made for?!!
So clever of them!!!
I feel just like a kid learning all these things!!!

Thanks a lot, guys!

#29 9 years ago

Alright, so I get a 0,05 on the 20V position of my DMM on the power board test points...
I guess the conclusion is obvious : I've got a faulty +5V (..?)

Quoted from barakandl:

check the regulator input and output. input 12v output 5v

What you call the regulator is this power board, right?

I should really apologize for being such a noob!!

#30 9 years ago

The regulator is the silver oval part that is mounted in the center of the large black metal heat sinks.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

Alright, so I get a 0,05 on the 20V position of my DMM on the power board test points...
I guess the conclusion is obvious : I've got a faulty +5V (..?)

TP 1 is where you should be checking for your 5 volts.

#32 9 years ago

Oh, so that's the regulator...
IMG_20140913_192151316.jpgIMG_20140913_192151316.jpg

And this thing is supposed to receive some 12v and then supply some 5v.
Well, it doesn't seem to be doing its job correctly!

And so yeah, that's what I'm supposed to do, right?
IMG_20140913_192259773.jpgIMG_20140913_192259773.jpg

#33 9 years ago

I am going to try and make this straightforward.

Disconnect the power input plugs on the MPU, sound board, and display. Just have the power board connected.

Check TP5. for +12vdc or more

Is there 12vdc or more? If so go to check Check TP1

If there is less than 12vdc. Measure for 0.25VAC or less across the 11,000uF filter cap right above the regulator. If there is more than a 0.25VAC on this cap, replace it with a value 12,000 to 18,000.

If there no 12vdc on TP5 or very low. Check fuse. If the fuse is blown. Check the 4 diodes to the right of TP4. Power off and use diode test looking for one shorted in both directions. From the picture, the top right diode of the 4 looks burnt. Use 6 amp diodes here if they are shorted. If one is bad, replace all 4.

If the fuse is good, check the wiring coming from the transformer and through the input plug.

If all that looks good....

Check TP1 for +5vdc.

If +5vdc is low or missing. Check the 11,000uF filter cap as described above and replace as needed.
If the filter cap is good, TP5 is correct, and TP1 is low or missing, replace the regulator LM323K.

If you start blowing fuses or having low voltage when the sound board, mpu, display is connected then deal that later. Get your power board working first.

If you want to go the shotgun route. Just replace the diodes, filter cap, and regulator. Resolder any suspect header pins too while you have the board out..

#34 9 years ago

Now that's a seriously straightforward AND thorough walkthrough you're giving me here!
If I can't fix my machine with that, well I'd really better stop right now!

It's Sunday evening, I'm low and really should go to bed, but I'll keep my evening tomorrow to get into it.
I just can't wait!

Thank you so much Barakandl for that time you spent lowering your explanations to my level!

#35 9 years ago

Alright, I finally found the time to start getting into it...

So I'm getting a 19.30 on TP5, instead of 12...
Then I checked TP1, and that's a nil. 0.00.

So now I should test that 11,000uF capacitor. I tried to find out how "above", but i didn't...
My multimeter is a basic one, and obviously it has no capacitor mode.
I tried to find how to do it with my multimeter on Google, but basically, some say i can charge the cap by connecting it in the ohm position and then connect it on V position (and expect it to discharge slowly), but on the other hand, some say that this technique is bad...
Can I have your view on that, please??

#36 9 years ago

You should be measuring AC voltage on that cap. It should be reading 0.3 VAC, or less.

If it reads higher, and I am betting it does, replace it before you do anything else.

#37 9 years ago

Another quote from Clay (aka Shaggy).

From the section entitled, "Before Turning the Game On: Ok, So You Didn't Do the Above. You BETTER do This!"

Check the AC Ripple on the Solenoid Driver Board's C23 Capacitor.
Before connecting the J4 connector on the MPU board, check for AC ripple on the solenoid driver board's big C23 capacitor. This capacitor takes +5 volts DC from the rectifier board, and makes it smooth. If this cap is bad, it will not be giving the MPU board good voltage. To test this, try this:

Remove connector J4 form the MPU board.
Turn the game on.
Put the DMM on AC volts.
Put the DMM leads on the solenoid driver board's C23 capacitor.
An AC voltage of less than .3 volts should be seen. Any more than that, and C23 is not doing its job, and needs to be replaced. Do this BEFORE you put power to the MPU board!

#38 9 years ago

Okay! So that's the "above" info that I missed!
I should really learn how to read carefully (and that's what I tell my pupils almost everyday).

So, I'll try that as soon as... this storm has gone away...

#39 9 years ago

Finally, I had the guts to do it, between two lightning bolts

So I'm supposed to do something like that, right?
IMG_20140917_193643412.jpgIMG_20140917_193643412.jpg
So then I'm having a 19,50V.

A new capacitor, you said?

#40 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

So then I'm having a 19,50V.
A new capacitor, you said?

Oh..........yes.

#41 9 years ago

And so, Barakandl said to replace it with a 12,000 to 18,000...
Why such a change?

#42 9 years ago

You can always go up in both voltage and capacitance, but never down. Actually, going up, is a good thing.

Personally, I would try to find one, with the same type of terminals, that is at least the same specs, at the best price. Sometimes it means getting a new one that is slightly larger but that's fine, as long as it will fit onto the board.

#43 9 years ago

Alright then. It doesn't seem to be a cakewalk to find one (i try tu reuse the expressions learnt here), but i'll call that local retail store and see if they can get one from their suppliers...

Thanks again for all that help, guys!

#44 9 years ago
Quoted from wylcot:

Finally, I had the guts to do it, between two lightning bolts
So I'm supposed to do something like that, right?

So then I'm having a 19,50V.
A new capacitor, you said?

IMG_20140917_193643412.jpg 171 KB

Are you setting your meter to volts AC? (not DC) when testing this cap?

ebay.com link: Nichicon LQ Series Snap in Electrolytic Capacitors 12 000uf 50v

Replace this cap if it reads more than 0.3VAC. Otherwise I would suspect the voltage regulator LM323K is bad.

#45 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Are you setting your meter to volts AC? (not DC) when testing this cap?
ebay.com link » Nichicon Lq Series Snap In Electrolytic Capacitors 12 000uf 50v
Replace this cap if it reads more than 0.3VAC. Otherwise I would suspect the voltage regulator LM323K is bad.

I assumed he did, but replacing it is always a good idea.

If it indeed reads 19+VAC, the chips on the MPU are most likely toast.

#46 9 years ago
Quoted from TrainH2o:

I assumed he did, but replacing it is always a good idea.
If it indeed reads 19+VAC, the chips on the MPU are most likely toast.

Yeah... i don't think it is possible to have that much AC across the cap.

If the fuse is blowing it still could be that cap. The fact he has something on the 12v rail and NOTHING on the 5v rail makes me think the regulator could be bad.

#47 9 years ago

Hi guys,
I was on that position
mm_dc.jpgmm_dc.jpg

That's strange, huh?!
Anyway, I'm waiting for a reply from my local store for this cap.
Otherwise, I'll order that from Farnell... or others, around here...

Would this one fit, for example?
http://fr.rs-online.com/web/p/condensateurs-aluminium/0575412/

So you think I should change the cap AND the regulator? (and the chips? )

#48 9 years ago

That is DC. The AC setting has a squiggly line.

If you have 19vdc for unreg and 0vdc for the +5v, id say the regulator is bad (the cap very well could be bad too, it is rated for 20v and 19v is pretty damn close to the ceiling).

#49 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

That is DC. The AC setting has a squiggly line.
If you have 19vdc for unreg and 0vdc for the +5v, id say the regulator is bad (the cap very well could be bad too, it is rated for 20v and 19v is pretty damn close to the ceiling).

Yes, AC voltage should have a symbol similar to this ~

I'm not sure what meter you have but some have separate settings for AC and DC voltage. Others have a push button, that selects between the two.

#50 9 years ago

Looks like the capacitor you linked to is in the correct range. However, it is what's called a "snap cap", because of the type solder leads it has.

In my experience, this type is best used where you are soldering the capacitor onto a circuit board. Those leads "snap" into the holes in the board, and hold it into place while you solder it in.

I would look for one that has the same type of leads, called "lugs", as the capacitor you are replacing.

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