Willy Wonka designed by Pat Lawlor sounds like an incredible pin

That would be a slap in the face to Dialed In owners and a disservice to the game itself. The games layout should belong to Dialed In and Dialed In alone. A lot of people are not fans of rethemes either as they feel less value is being offered as all of the design work is already done yet the price is the same (or higher) then the original game.

Life support? What are the facts to support that? There's no signs of JJP being on life support and that is a terrible rumor to start throwing around.

So much negativity in this thread from people just wanting to discuss JJP's next game. Another train wreck of a thread.

That's false. JJP never said they would reveal a new pin at Expo 18, that was planned! After Pirates took longer then expected it became well known that JJP would wait a bit longer to reveal their next game so there wouldn't be as long of a gap between announcement and shipping. That reveal will occur at TPF 2019. Smart move by JJP.

Jack is still involved with the company on various levels from what I heard. In a podcast from earlier this year he said that he's heavily involved in the licensing aspect of the company.

If JJP #5 is Toy Story I just hope they have the license to use actor audio, animated clips with actor audio, and licensed music from the films. I just can't see spending $5k+, let alone $9k+, for a licensed themed pin that doesn't feature actor audio and clips from the movie(s). Willy Wonka would likely have all actor audio and video as well as a bunch of unique animations. Just take a look at any of the Willy Wonka slot machines, there's a ton of creativity in them and all feature licensed assets from the films. Personally I much rather have Willy Wonka with a ton of licensed assets then a Toy Story pin without them.

Glad to hear the rumors pointing to JJP # 5 as Willy Wonka. I think JJP will have another hit on their hands with that theme, especially since it will likely have licensed actor audio and video. Toy Story sounds good but only if JJP has the ability to use the original voice actor audio and clips from the films.

Even the best shooting pins may not earn well on route, all depends on location, how the game is setup, etc. I was reading a route related thread the other day and one guy said the Hobbit was a terrible earner and another guy with 25 pins or so on route has Hobbit as their #1 earner.

I'll say this, I was very critical of Dialed In after the initial reveal and thought I would never own one. Well, I bought one NIB last year and it's probably my favorite pin in my collection at the moment. It's an incredible shooter, the code is very deep with unique rules, animations on it are some of the best in pinball, and it's loaded up with some very cool toys and features.

No JJP rethemes please! For $8k-$10k these games need to be original designs in my opinion.

Willy Wonka, Toy Story, and Harry Potter? That sounds like one hell of a pinball release schedule if true Hopefully a HP pin comes out at some point and JJP is the one making it.

I could actually seeing that being the case. If she doesn't want the theme associated with a company that makes a bunch of rock and roll pins, did a Playboy pin in the past, etc then that leaves JJP to make a HP pin. WOZ, TH, DI, and POTC are all for the most part pins that could go into any family home, the same cannot really be said for every Stern and Spooky title.

OR

Jack asked JJP's investor "we have a shot to get HP, we need X amount of dollars to get this one before Stern does and it will be the biggest modern pinball release ever" lol

That's amazing news if it holds. I'm sure pinball companies lock up licensed themes years ahead of time due to development time and a bunch of other reasons.

I really hope a HP pin by JJP covers all 8 films and that there's a set of modes plus a mini wizard mode for each of the 7 years required at Hogwarts

I can see GNR being popular in a bar setting but when it comes to people dropping $8k--$10k for a home pinball machine I think a HP pin would easily outsell GNR.

Here's what was said on Kanedas latest podcast about JJP. Sounds like great news all around.

1. WOZ Yellow Brick Road edition revealed at TPF, not a stripped down version, limited to 250 games (maybe marketed as a CE level game at a high price?)
2. Next new game is for sure Willy Wonka, don't expect to see anything until May / June
3. Pirates no longer in production and may or may not come back due to WOZ YBR's needing to be built
4. Toy Story is after Willy Wonka
5. Both Willy Wonka and Toy Story are designed by Pat Lawlor
6. Toy Story was supposed to come out before Willy Wonka but the original deal inked between Disney and JJP had the same issue as Pirates licensing (limited assets)
7. Toy Story licensing being renegotiated to obtain more assets, person who inked original deal no longer works at JJP
8. Willy Wonka will have full assets
9. Eric likely designing Guns and Rose's
10. Kaneda thinks 2019 will be JJP's most successful year ever, will struggle to keep up with orders

Yeah, both are great pins, can't go wrong with either. HUO Hobbit LE / SE average has been around $6500 - $7k lately, prices have gone up a bit since the final round of code updates. Some quick sales in the past closer to $6k but not the norm. One sold around here at $7k a few months back so sure location plays a role too.

Seems like everyone who owns one loves it, keep reading of people picking one up here and there. I wonder if production costs are too high or if its simply due to JJP needing to produce new pins. Also wonder if the lack of licensed assets in the game has impacted sales and / or reduced the outlook for future sales?

The problem with the movie clips that are used in POTC is that they contain no actor video and no actor audio. There's a 125 main modes of this where you hit shots for the characters involved in a movie scene. For example you start a mode called say "The Sword" or something and are told to hit X amount of character shots. The clip played at the beginning of the mode is 3-5 seconds, shows a sword and nothing else. Does anyone remember what scene of what Pirates movie that was from? No. Are there any clips played advancing the scene as character shots are made? No, just callouts saying "Jack collected", "Elizabeth collected", etc. As a result all of the 125 main modes feel rather generic in my opinion and are nowhere near as engaging as the 30 book modes in The Hobbit that all feature licensed assets.

The Gibbs callouts are incredible but he's also the only voice you ever hear in a game for a pinball machine based off of 5 movies. The pick a Pirate character feature is great but sadly there's just a photo of each Pirate and no video / voice assets from each. Once you pick your character there's nothing to remind the player during gameplay that you are playing him or her due to a lack of licensed assets. The music in the game is perfect like you said, as is all of the sound work done by David Thiel.

Pirates is an excellent game but the lack of licensed assets hurt the draw to it for some people. There's a boat load of modes in Pirates but all, with exception to the 5 wizard modes (very cook
L) and the super wizard mode once it arrives, play very similar. Maybe the lack of licensed assets in the game is why the programming team chose to make the game more about stacking everything rather than playing modes on their own. As others have said for $10k licensed assets need to be there. JJP seems to know this now with reports of the Toy Story licensed being renegotiated to get more assets.

Yeah, the whole "I hate cell phones" argument is ridiculous at this point. The smartphone has changed how we communicate, consume media, and get our news. Cell phones are not going away and pretty much everyone has one at this point.

*reply submitted via cell phone

Why would JJP do that? Stern is charging $9k for LE's that are not built as well, have less mechs, and contain 1/3 of the code work on average.

I was talking to the Mrs. yesterday about pinball for way to long (she always loves that lol) and whether or not I should go for Pirates or wait for Willy Wonka. She said she would wait for Willy Wonka out of principle for JJP not including the original spinning disk mech and the opening / closing chest yet still keeping the price the same. Damn lol. It was hard to hear that argument again but I can see her point. I went back to some older Pirate gameplay videos and the entire game still just looks so much cooler with the original disk and chest mech. For nearly $10k I could stomach not having licensed actor audio / video assets due to the amount / variety of toys in the original Pirates prototype but after the mech changes it was and still is a sore point when considering purchasing the game. Who knows, maybe I'll still get one, on the fence at the moment about buying an LE or waiting for Wonka.

The big difference there is AFM wasn't revealed or marketed for 6+ months with that feature only to have it removed. Prototype AFM's with that feature if they existed were not playable at multiple shows as well as on location for months. AFM also didn't cost $8500 - $12500.

I'm in no way saying that POTC is a bad game because those features were removed. Pirates is an incredible pin. However, its reasonable to expect that some potential buyers may always be bitter about two major features being removed from a game that costs $10k.

Issues on the latest build games seem to be pretty much resolved from I've read. There's always a risk of buying a more loaded game such as POTC early in production due to issues found on the line. However, early POTC games seemed to have more issues out of the box then what would be deemed acceptable by most people. For $10k people shouldn't have to remove mini playfields, cut zip ties for wires to allow for more slack, reposition lights (mini playfield ship lantern lights), etc. Thankfully those early issues seem to be in the past.

I'm ready and excited for Chocolate River Multiball where Gene Wilder takes up the entire screen while going crazy along with along with some trippy RGB LED light shows! The music and sound effects definitely need to get progressively louder as each shot is made in this mode.

Speaking of sound. With David Thiel no longer at JJP (exclusive deal at Deeproot) who is doing the audio for Willy Wonka? Personally I hope JJP brings Chris Granner back.

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I've been debating waiting for Wonka or Toy Story over buying a Pirates. I'm pretty sure I'm going to pull the trigger on a Pirates LE next week. I'm not sure how Wonka or Toy Story will turn out, what the ruleset design will be, etc. Pirates has already established itself as a top pin with a ton of shots, great toys / features, incredibly deep code and its story based ruleset design is something I favor.

Now to just tell the Mrs how much it costs! Lol.

Hey Iceman, noticed in the JJP Pirates thread you said you are going for a POTC. What ended up swaying you? Considering an LE purchase this week myself.

Harry Potter time! Sounds like Wonka, GNR, Toy Story and then possibly HP? Relessing two games a year would mean HP being announced at Expo 2020 for an early 2021 release.

Now I really don't know what to do in terms of buying my next pin. I just sold a Star Wars LE and I'm ready to buy another pin. I'm still leaning towards POTC next as it's an incredible pin even without actor audio and video.

No, Pirates has sold very well from everything I've heard. LE's are sold out to distributors at this point as well. At the end of the day JJP can only produce X number of games at a time and spend so much on development, production, and licensing. I have no doubt that Pirates is one of JJP's most expensive games to produce to date.

Also, if JJP has gone after Willy Wonka, Toy Story and Harry Potter with the intent of securing licensed actor assets in the process I can see that contributing to not renewing the Pirates the license. There's only so much money a company is willing to spend on licensing.

I don't see it happening. The amount of work that has gone into the code, audio, and animations in Pirates is pretty remarkable. I can't see all of that work being recreated and a market for a $9500 generic Pirate themed pin. Even though licensed assets are limited in Pirates it still has drawn a lot of buyers to the game.

I'm sure and the license agreement is also completely different as each are with different companies. It sounds like Disney can be rather difficult to work with when it comes to using their properties.

If Pirates sales were not great then LE's wouldn't be sold out to distributors. The game seems very well received and considered by many to be one of JJP's best pins to date. With JJP now having 4 titles under their belt and several on the way they are not going to be able to produce every one of them anymore. At some point assets (money and employees for development) need to be moved onto the next games.

Cool. I'm going to order an LE this week as well. I could wait for Wonka but then I could also wait for the next game, and the next game. Pirates is known today to be a great game and has everything I want in a pin. I'm also a fan of wide body pins and hearing that both Wonka and Toy Story are standard body games is a bit of a bummer. If Harry Potter is happening I'm sure it will be a wide body game.

It will be interesting to see how and when JJP reveals Wonka. Is there a show in May / June? Another idea is JJP doing a live stream directly from their office or even better have the entire reveal prerecorded Nintendo Direct style.

I really hope not. Stern pins are fun but they won't do the theme justice and Stern HP LE will still cost $9k or more. There will be a bunch of "super wand ramps" and "super magical orbits" modes versus the deep and unique code that JJP has delivered with every one of their pins. If Lyman is on it I can see it being fun but would still prefer the JJP treatment for a HP pin.

Yup good points. Nintendo has been doing this for years now with their Nintndo Directs. They are prerecorded so no chance of something being screwed up. A similar format could work well for a pinball reveal.

So this must mean that Wonka LE is going to cost either $10k or $11k!

I love the full featured JJP pins but I do wonder what a $6k JJP could look like. Maybe they could offer a pro, LE and CE version of their future games. If JJP could make a $6k pro level version of their future games with the same quality cabinet, build quality, and coding as they do today, just with less features, then I think they would take a huge bite out of Sterns marketshare.

However, I also know that JJP has wanted to avoid stripping down gameplay features across models. If they want to compete with Stern in the $6k pro level market they would be forced to offer multiple versions of games. Personally I hope they don't do this but I also want to see them around long term.

No, KingPinGames is right, you bash JJP every chance you get. Why constantly bash and question everything they do?

Honestly I wonder if there's still some Stern loyalists out there that are pissed JJP came into existence and made games that feature at least double the number of features and code depth compared to Stern games. If that's the case they shouldn't be pissed at JJP but rather Stern for raising their prices, including less and lowering quality.

There's also the cost of developing high quality animations for a larger screen and integrating the animations with code, music, etc.

I can see JJP being very successful with a $7k pin that while scaled back in terms of features / toys of their games today would still offer the same deep unique code we are used to from JJP.

Long term I don't think JJP can survive on only making $9k+ pins. It sounds like JJP hasn't turned a profit yet based on rumors posted here and while their primary investor is a billionaire at some point he's going to want to see JJP turn a profit. Sounds like that time may be now with Wonka and future JJP pins being scaled back a bit to offer them at lower price point?

If what said above is true it makes perfect sense why Pirates production is stopping for good. The game may simply be too expensive for JJP to build and as a result it doesn't make any financial sense to renew the license.

Generic theme? Everything in Dialed In had to be custom made in terms of animations, sounds, music, etc and JJP did it with very high quality. I'll take that anyday over a bunch of movie clips. Love the theme as nothing had to be sacrificed and it came from Pat Lawlors own mind. The pin pays homage to many of Pat's best games which is super cool.

The "cell phone" on the playfield is also a pretty damn cool toy considering it displays custom animations from characters from the theme as well as mode information. Hell, more animation work probably went into the 3D models for the phone then Sterns past 3 LCD games lol.

After seeing what Pat Lawlor did with Dialed In I can't wait to see how Wonka turns out. Will be interesting to see if it's as loaded as Dialed In or is scaled back in effort to reduce costs.

The 11 drop targets in The Hobbit are independently controlled and are used in a ton of interesting ways throughout the games 30+ modes.

The KISS ball crawl feature is cool but is used so rarely which is the problem with nearly all Stern premium / LE features. Since Stern chooses to keep the rulesets nearly identical between pros and premiums / LE's it limits the use of extra features on the higher end models. The moving Slimer mech in Ghostbusters premium / LE is another example. It moves all over the playfield but are there rules to use it any differently then in the pro? No. Same goes for the mini playfield in ACDC premium / LE. It's used for a couple modes and contains very few rules.

JJP puts the extra time and effort into coding the hell out of their mechs. Stern often seems to do the bare minimum when it comes to creating code for their premium / LE mechs.

Not listing them for you as regardless of what I say you will hate JJP lol.

Here's a couple screenshots from the video, definitely Wonka! In the typical JJP logo video they are just regular pinballs.

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At $9500 for a standard body game it better be loaded up. Dialed In LE is a very loaded game at $9k. Will it have as much stuff as that game? Who knows.

One thing I wish JJP would go back to is offering a high quality powder coat on their LE games. The powder coat on Dialed In LE looks like a Stern premium powder coat (baked on look like ACDC premium) and the black powder coat on Pirates LE looks like a Stern pro powder coat but honestly isn't as durable.

If you want a similar high quality powder coat to what was on WOZ ECLE or Hobbit LE / SE you now need to spend crazy money for a CE / YBR type game. JJP didn't lose the ability to offer a high quality powder coat after Hobbit, they are just making it a CE only option and that's BS considering the price of LE games.

On Pirates RGB GI is only on the LE, white GI on SE.

Lol. Finally a good problem for pinball to have! Multiple great games from multiple companies. Sucks for us though who want every game though haha.

Dialed In also required 100% of everything in the game to be custom made from the animations, to artwork, audio, music, etc. That had to cost some bucks versus being able to use existing video clips and music in a good chunk of the game.

Its hard to judge right now as Wonka has yet to be revealed. Will it have more or less in it then Dialed In? Will it have as interesting of toys and custom animations? Who knows. Gotta wait and see. If not it will seem like a big price increase.

Yup Right now I'm 50 / 50 on whether or not Wonka will have as much in it as Dialed In. Either JJP is going to continue down the route of loading games up with a ton of stuff or will scale them back slightly to generate more profit.

"Pure Imagination" has to be the name of one of the games wizard modes (maybe a variant of it is the main track) so that song is in the game. "I've Got a Golden Ticket" will be another, maybe a mid wizard mode or the main multiball. Chocolate River multiball is likely another that may or not use the background track from the movie, hopefully the game gets louder and louder as shots are made in the mode just like the scene from the movie. Then there's "Oompa Loompa Doompa Dee Do" of course which will almost for sure be in the game. There's multiple "Oompa Loompa" tracks in the movie so hopefully JJP has each and creates a set of "Oompa Loompa" modes with them or something. The game definitely has the potential to be the next WOZ.

Also hearing Jack himself is voicing a custom track titled "The Pinball Man" based off the "The Candy Man" song? "Who can take a pinball machine, sprinkle it with code, cover it in toys and a miracle or two...The Pinball Man, The Pinball Man can". Just joking about the last one lol

Hopefully it won't be like the slot machine where you can get an Ooma Loompa bonus and then get zero points (dollars) from it lol. Have had that happen a couple times.

Yeah, an Oompa Loompa song has to be in the game like you said, at least the first one from the movie.

Sounds like Kaneda was blown away by the game. He said he put his $12.5k down for a collectors edition and that it will destroy everything else on the market. Also mentioned that it does not reuse anything from Dialed In which is great to hear as that means an entirely new idea from Pat Lawlor. He sounded very impressed with the world under glass and mentioned that an item or two that has been used by JJP before (probably the camera and or mini LCD) are used in a very unique way on the game.

"When you put this game next to Black Knight Sword of Rage it's a joke", "Sword of Rage looks like a $7500 game, Willy Wonka looks like it should cost twice as much, it looks like there's twice as much in there, it looks like 10x as much effort went into the game, its comical that these games are separated by $1500 bucks".

Ah yes the Escalera Willy Wonka edition

Heard on the latest Kaneda podcast that Joe Katz, not Keith Johnson is on Wonka code. Would be cool if Joe is the lead on the game, he's done a lot of great work at JJP. Maybe Keith is on Pirates for a while longer while Ted is on the fall title since his last game as a lead was Dialed In?

Kaneda mentioned that Pat Lawlor is going back and tweaking some things on the game, and said that the version they played is not the final production version. He made it sound like the ramp(s) wide and may be narrowed a bit.

Yeah, would be nice. Stern has never seemed humbled when it comes to JJP, bitter is more like it. Anytime Stern posts a picture of an arcade lineup they make sure not to include any JJP games in their photos. There was also George Gomez's WOZ coat hanger comment a couple years back.

JJP on the otherhand has openly complimented Stern, includes their games in Facebook pictures, etc. JJP knows Stern is their competitor but can celebrate all things pinball. Stern however just acts like JJP doesn't exist.