Given the fact that it's hard to find a nice one for under three grand, it's probably moved into "A-list" territory.

The reason it isn't is the same reason the SC isn't. Games get "hot", it happens. On RGP they call it the "game of the month" One person says the magic words "...don't you guys think (insert game here) is getting hard to find?" and then boom! In the last year I have flipped two WH20s. They are still find-able for sub-2k. You may have to look a bit, but they are there. WH20 will never be an A game, it is too polarizing. Some people love it, some hate it. MM and AFM are almost universally loved, TZ is universally loved by "players" and CV is universally loved by everyone who isn't homo-phobic.

Give it time, WH20 will calm back down, and the next random game will become "the" game of the moment.

I think an argument could be made that the present top 18 on the pinside top 100 are A-listers, especially if one considers TRON LE (A-list) instead of TRON (B-list), and then the B-list starts with pins like The Shadow, Whirlwind, Ironman, Champions Pub, POTC, BDK etc.

I also think an argument could be made that the A-list is very exclusive and would be limited to a few such as MM, MB, AFM, TZ LOTR, IJ and a couple others. Then the B-list would be the next 10 to 15, then the C-list would probably be about 20-50 machines. A D-list would then comprise games that are not terrible, but maybe lack lastability at home for lack of features such as many non-DMD or EM's.

That completely depends on how you define an "A-game". We had a thread about this a while back, and I can't remember what the consensus was.

Yeah, people have been calling White Water and BSD 'flavors of the month' for dang near every month for about 5 or 6 years now

Make your own 'A' list - MM and AFM aren't even on *my* A list, but I had to own both of them to find out White Water *is* on my A list, as is BSD.

IMHO, this A list/B list is stupid. Who cares. I don't buy a pin because it's an "A" list pin or not. I buy them becuase I like the game.

There is no defined A/B list. It's just like reviews, very opinionated. Buy the game because you like it, not to impress anyone.

Should be a who cares option in the poll.

LOL

I want WH2O so please don't put it on the A(stronomical price)-list

John & Bill hit the nail on the head. The 'A' list will vary from person to person I know there are some pins that many think are on the 'A' list that are not even on my 'C' list. And many 'C to D' list pins that are on my 'A' list. I disregard ratings or labels like 'A' list when I play a game if I love it and think it has lastability that is all that matters to me. In my book WH20 is an 'A' list pin but I know that will not be true with everyone.

A-list or not, WH2O is definitely one of the pins that has risen in value the most since I got into the hobby two years ago.

If you have to ask, it isn't. I pretty much think the top ten is pretty much the "a-list".

I think the A-list refers to a pin that is in such high demand that people are willing to pay inflated prices for it like any sought after collectors item.

What's really keeping WW from being an A-list pin IMO, is the software. It has one of the most awesome playfield designs ever. The software is a bit unfinished and one-dimensional. If someone revamped the software for this game it would easily be an A-lister.

So "A" list is based solely on price?

I think Wh20 has always been an "A" list title, even if it sold for $2k.

No, but it's getting there.

No. It's probably a combination of price and popularity. Of course, the two tend to go hand in hand. Like others have said, the only thing that really matters is your own opinion. I think it would be pretty shortsighted for someone to build their collection based solely on other people's opinions of what pins are the best.

A-list is based on demand. Supply and demand influence price. No one is making new WH2O so as the demand increases the price increases. FYI WH2O is a horrible game and not even worth 2k pm me and Ill take it off your hands.... Im doing you a favor....

It was a b when I was looking it will be an A when I go to sell.

A list can be defined in so many different ways but, the important part is settling on what an A list pin is. It could be based on price, popularity, consensus opinion, ratings, or other factors. I agree that it’s going to vary from person to person. If a general list must be made, then I feel the best way to do it is agree on how many would be in this exclusive list, then have everyone create a personal list of that number. Take the top whatever the number is from those lists, and you have your list.

Price should have little factor in my opinion because you would need to ask yourself would why BBB and CC are not in the top 20? If there had been 15k of those made, what would they be going for? My guess is between 1500-2500 ranges somewhere.

SC is not an "a" list game? I would argue that.

i apologize for participating in such a silly thread. dead horse, this.

I hate the letter list argument, I don't think it should ever be allowed in price arguments. It's just too open to interpretation.

I actually don't see it as a "dead horse" at all. Certain games just always seem on the brink and I think it is worthy of discussion. I think games like LOTR and SM may have cracked "A" status and certainly "CV" has. At what point did CV go from blow out to being an "A"? I understand it is all subjective but in lieu of the other silly threads that get started this one would strike me as one that should have legs.

A-list Games are just as arbitrary as A-list Celebrities. Asa society we define them as klnown names that will invoke you to spend at the box office. You will see that movie because "Blank" is in it. So in return We know the game is a household name being most have seen it played it heard about it, and for the time being it will be a cause for peple to spend money. As newer games come others will go. Some will just stay becuse they are the legends of the game. So for now WH2O "is" an A-list game. Will it become a Legend like TZ. That is to be determined.

Without question, White Water is an A list pinball machine to any real player! It's one of my most favorate games! Play it for YEARS... and you'll still be shocked to hear NEW sounds!

But this is coming from a guy who doesn't enjoy country music, but thinks that RoadShow is one of the best pins ever! Another DEEP game! Don't try this with totan (shallow as... shut your mouth!).

Both WhiteWater and RoadShow are KEEPERS!

- Iowa Pinball Club

I like this definition and by said criteria WH2O is a A list pin. Of course it is subjective but an arbitrary top "10" list as a definition is arbitrary as well. There's nothing magical about 10. In my opinion the A list should not be so narrowly defined.

WH20 is not the flavor of the month and has withstood the test of time or we wouldn't always be having these discussions. It's a great machine that's held in high regard by many collectors.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Logically speaking, A,B,C,D,F grade pins should be considered out of the top 100.

According to the rankings here, Whitewater is a solid "A class" pin. It also is in the top 20 Mr.Pinball search requests.

Whitewater is an A class pin.

...naturally, that still doesn't really mean crap.

Couldn't agree more.

For me, there are A-List Pin and then there are other pins. I don't think you can delineate a B-List or C-List. The lines for A-List are blurry enough. That said, I would define an A-List pin as a machine that meets the following criteria:

1) Consistently ranked within the top 15 or so pins amongst IPDB, Pinside, Treasure Cove, etc...rankings

2) A pin that is somewhat hard to find for sale, in nice condition, for what conservative price estimators think it should sell for.

Under those criteria, I think WH20 is clearly an A-List pin. The questions come at pins like GnR, TS, BSD....

And I'd argue back that it isn't.

I own a Shadow, and would love for it to be A-LIST, but it never will be. The more time that goes by, the higher the prices will go on all pins. They aren't making more WPC's, and everyday, there are more collectors.

I agree that arguing about what is A-List and what isn't is most likely a waste of time. Even within the pinball community there are widely varying ratings on the same games. Look at IPDB's top 10 compared to Pinside's.

If you like a game, go buy it, if you don't, don't. Simple as that. BTW, if anyone thinks TS is close to the A-List cusp, I will sell mine for $2500.

Unless you're trying to win a pissing contest it doesn't matter if a game is A or B list. Well, maybe if you're a retailer and you're trying to use that as a sales ploy. Anyhow, you like what you like or at least i don't change my opinions on games based on how other people see them. I'd rather own a Mousin' Around than a TOTAN. Do i give two squirts that nobody else would? NOPE...

Hey - some of the lemmings need that list or they won't know what to buy!

I passed a nice one up for 1300.00 last year because I had gotten a TZ two weeks before and haven't forgiven myself since. The worst part is I was looking for a wh20 for a while then settled for the tz because i got a good deal. I think the popularity has to do with price. A year ago you could buy it rated 17th for under 1500.00 when all the other pins around going for at least double.

only thing A OR B listings is for bragging rights, what matters to me is if a pin is fun or not

Precisely define what constitutes an A-list game? Price? Rank? Rarity? Theme? Fun? Difficulty?

I imagine WH20 has been in some people's A-list for awhile, but universally? Dunno.

A lot of people won't put anything but B/W Titles in the A-list, even though LOTR, TSPP, IM, etc etc are immensely popular.

CC is one of the most expensive production games to buy but I wouldn't call it an A-list game. IJ is very polarizing and even though it sells for the same as TZ I would assume there are quite a number who wouldn't include it either.

As far as WH20 going up, it has. It is not selling all day for 3k though. RESTORED examples are selling for that or more, but you see a lot of greedy people trying to get 3k and sitting on it for weeks on end. The same goes for TZ in the 4k range. STTNG tends to sit if people ask 3k still.

The problem is that the games did go up. Then there was a demand for restored examples, and people with routed/average machine saw what they went for and thought their's was worth it too. If you watch Wh20 can be had for under 3k fairly regularly, but if you want it today expect to pay just like anything else.

I've Owned 3 WH20 Pin's.. I Pimped and Sold 2 for $ 2K , the 3rd was The best of the 3 ,
Sold it for $ 2300.00 , Jan of 2011 , It was sold 6 mth's Later for 3K.

and they Stayed with the Forum's ,, DermGuy got my 1st , Tidalwdave the 2nd & Lori & Rad the 3rd...

BSD to me is a Pin that WILL Go Up in Value and Be on More Member's Wanted list.. Keeper 4 me !!

New Year's of 2010 , I Traded 3 B/W's for a Beautiful Restored SS , I was Congratulated for Owning my 1st A-Title.. A 3k and over Pin was considered an A-List Pin.

I recently bought an Andromeda. It was my most wanted pin. It's an A list pin. To me. Most people would obviously say it isn't, but I really don't care.

I agree with CVTSTZ.. If WH20 is on your wish list and a must have, it's on the A-list for yourself. I could have picked up one about 3 months ago for 1,800. Black Rose says he sold two for $2,000... I would say it is a B+ title for me. TOTAN is a hard pin to find, does that make it a A-Title?

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule that make A, B, C list classifications pointless. CC was a good example by Dung. BBB is another one....It only ranks 25th but by most people's perceptions it is the epitome of A-list. CV yet another one...They were closed out for $1800 a piece because noone wanted the damn things. Now all of a sudden they're A list pins worth 5K? Nothing changed (well home roms helped, but you get the point).

I've played every pin but one in the top 50, and many 'A' list games (TZ, TAF, CC, IJ, Wh20) I don't enjoy as much as some quote 'C' list games.

a-list,b-list,its bs,folks. its all pinball and all good. long live the silver ball!

yes... if it has the home rom in it

Yes, by most definitions.

Ratings: Yes #8 IPDB, #8 Pinside (I'm assuming the good and bad knocks included in these)
Cost/Price: Yes
Aesthetics/theme: Yes (Subjective, but it is original and not based on bombed license)
Production Numbers: Yes
Collectible Factor: Yes (On lots of want lists)

Better question, what would not make it an "A" title?

A-list schmaylist.

The past few years have put so many pins out of reach to so many. Less pins for sale and ever-increasing demand will continue to blur the lines of what's considered A, B or C list, and "collector quality".

We're all (more or less) collectors at this point. Anyone that thinks they know how to categorize pins with certainty is certainly mistaken.

You find them, inspect them, decide what you personally are willing to spend, then make a decision. Just do it pretty effin quick, because if you don't someone else will win out, time and time again.

Brian

"C's" are always top 10 IMHO...

images.jpeg

Throw the "list" out and buy what you like!
I agree with the "getting machines that nobody has around you/stuff you never get to play..." sentiment. It makes visiting other Pinheads that much more enjoyable! You tend to visit more frequently too, I have found!

With that being said...
Take care of my baby T_G!!!

Edit: Never mind.......

As a very happy White Water owner, I flat out don't care what list you put it on. I enjoy the game, got one in pretty good condition at a great price, and that's all there is to it. When/if it comes time to part with the machine, I'm going to look at machines that I have my own reasons for buying, and won't care if it's A list or not.

-Hans

Have had my eye on one. Major flaw listed is planking. Dealbreaker? Can get it for $2400

planking_1.JPG planking_2.JPG playfield.JPG pf_and_dmd.JPG

I don't think it is a pissing contest. I think it is simply an agreement among collectors of what is considered an A. I know it's not PC (pin correct) to admit that A's and B's and C's exist. Doesn't make one play better than another, just means it is an A.

I have never owned a machine because it was on a list but I certainly know one exist. Doesn't mean you have to even like them but you probably know what they are.

Like someone said, if you have to ask....

Wh2O is still only a "b".

Whomp.....Whomp....

Rascal, that play field condition isn't a deal breaker, but that price is way too high for that machine. I'm also seeing a lot of paint wear around the back box too. I would be hard pressed to say it's worth $1500 if the rest of the machine is in the same condition.