I like using paypal.

You have to be very careful if you're the seller. I believe you get up to a year to have your money refunded for pretty much any reason if you're the buyer. There are also quite a lot of PayPal scams out there. There is a long guide here that Vid wrote up. Search for "how not to get ripped off in pinball." It should come up.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide#post-1813446

Lots of good stuff here

I would only accept cash.

Never know when you run into a strange one.

Paypal is fine as a buyer.

As a seller it kind of sucks ass.

First off, who wants to hand over their $500-10,000 pinball machine and not have cash in hand? Who wants to pay the 3% fees which can really add up?

But mostly, there's a huge security issue for sellers. If a buyer gets buyer's remorse, or a week later decides they don't like the game, or are just plain crooks, they can dispute the sale. This can result in charge backs, holds on seller's money...a whole mess of things that can really complicate a seller's life. And bottom line is, as long as paypal gets their money, they really don't care about justice. It's an unregulated bank and it's just not how you want to take money for selling a pinball machine.

I'll take a paypal deposit but generally this is not how I'm going to sell a machine for the bulk of the balance.

If the seller allows Paypal then it's not frowned upon. I don't think any payment in general is frowned upon. As CrazyLevi stated it generally favors the buyer, so the seller is taking a risk by accepting Paypal. On the other hand, a wire transfer is the opposite. It benefits the seller and the buyer is assuming the risk.

For buyers, it's good. For sellers, it's risky and you have to eat a fee.

I would never take paypal as a payment. They ultimately control the deal after the deal is done. If the buyer says "I bought a widget, but received a wadget, the seller has to prove (to an entity that knows nothing about pinball) that they did not cheat the buyer.

Cash, in hand, in person, or no deal unless the buyer wants to wire the money before picking up the machine. Pinball tends to be a very emotional hobby for many people with many people thinking a used machine should be treated just like a new blender purchase from Walmart.

I also use Paypal mostly as a pin fund account, to keep the hobby funds away from the household accounts (and the wife) it's convenient for me to pay for parts online this way, and I've accepted Paypal for some game sales as well.

I wouldn't accept full payment with PayPal.

But would accept and have used PayPal to send a small deposit to hold games.

I would never accept PayPal unless the amount was small (less than 100 bucks), or I personally knew the person.

I like paypal and have used it to buy and sell games. It can be a touch risky from a the sellers standpoint but I have never had issues. Request payments friends and family and deal with known pinsiders. I always look at their forum activity before taking or sending a payment. It's super easy to use and I don't have to deal with a pile of cash.

When selling, I only accept small deposits as a hold especially from folks I haven't dealt with. Rest cash upon pick up.
Now, as an exception, if I know the seller or buyer well and we have a good relationship, I'm more than willing to go the PayPal route either way.

I've done it this way both as a buyer and seller with no issues

The only way I will accept PayPal for the payment of a pin is if the person is willing to do a friend/family transfer. As far as I'm aware, this is pretty much the equivalent of them sending you cash.

If it's funded used a credit card, it can be reversed. It's not foolproof.

Nope, they can still do a chargeback and rip you off.

>>>>>>THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO SAFELY ACCEPT PAYPAL FOR PAYMENT. NONE.<<<<<<<<
..............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^....................

Repeat this until it is burned into your brain.

Sorry. I should have been more specific. I was referring to it being funded from a bank account. I would never let the buyer use a credit card. Not only can they dispute it, but you also have to pay the additional fee.

You know by the fee. If the funds come from the person's PayPal account or a linked bank account, there will not be a fee. If it comes from a credit card, there will always be a fee.

Edit: Now I'm second guessing myself. Who pays the CC fee? Is it the sender or the receiver?

I wouldn't accept PayPal for a pair of socks, never mind a pinball machine.

Not exactly. If you are seller and are on the receiving end of a friends & family payment, the buyer pays the fees on top of the amount that was sent.

If you are a seller and on the receiving end of a goods & services payment, the buyer pays no fees and the fees get taken out of the amount that was sent.

Not true.

The buyer can pay by credit card on friend/family, press the button to pay the fee himself, then do a chargeback a few days latter.

Not in person, not over the internet, not ever is there a safe way to accept Paypal.

>>>>>>THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO SAFELY ACCEPT PAYPAL FOR PAYMENT. NONE.<<<<<<<<
..............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^....................

As others have said, doing Paypal as Friends & Family doesn't offer any additional protection for the seller. The buyer can still successfully do a charge-back.

Okay, so that answers my question. There is indeed no safe way to do it. Therefore, I would only recommend PayPal as a way to transfer money between friends. If it isn't someone you trust implicitly, don't do it.

Example of what happens when you send payment (as a buyer) using friends & family and use a credit card as the funding source. Notice the extra fee.

paypal_(resized).jpg

Paypal is fine on a $100 ramp or a MPU board or something like that.

If you get ripped off for $100, you will be pissed, but you'll be OK.

If you get ripped for $5000, you will have to bang a lot of hookers to get that all out of your system.

I was just chatting about potentially shipping a game to someone here on Pinside and they offered to send the money Paypal. For reasons mentioned above I wrote back and said I would be ok if it was Friends and Family or a different payment method. I dont want a dispute opened up because of the shipper... etc not worth it to me.

The immediate response back from the potential buyer was that they pass due to my response. They didnt even offer up an alternative method or respond saying no deal unless you accept paypal.

I have never shipped a game and have always dealt in cash. How are people handling these types of deals where shipping is involved and money needs to be transferred?

PayPal all the time but as friends and family.

Please understand that the payment can still be charged back/reversed if sent via the Friends and Family option. You would not have been much safer at all with this option even if the buyer agreed to do it.

The best alternative for the seller is to have the buyer send them a certified bank check or money order. This is risky for the buyer but not the seller. When I am the seller I do not care about the risk the buyer is taking because I will always fulfill my end of the deal. If the buyer does not agree to my terms, then it just means there is no sale. Not the end of the world.

Also be aware that bank checks and money orders can be faked. They may even have security features present like micro printing and the bank will even cash it. Then a few weeks later when it's discovered to be fake you are on the hook for the funds.

I use paypal all the time, usually I ask them to gift me the money. Now pinside has a feedback thread usually you can figure out if they are a decent buyer or seller.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-not-get-ripped-off-in-pinball-vids-guide#post-1813455

Gift or not, you can still be charged back with Paypal

Even friend and family can be charged back with Paypal.

Just trying to avoid fees. We aren't businesses we are hobbyist.

As long as you know you can be charged back 100% up to 6 months latter....

bought and sold using paypal, sometimes as deposit, other times for full payment. I've never asked the seller to eat the 3% fee though, if I want the invoice and that option, I eat the 3%.

I don't have a paypal but it never stopped me from using some strangers account

I would only take cash on a machine honestly and I sell stuff on ebay for a living

Thanks Vid I missed that section good advice.

Never, ever as a seller of physical goods -- especially high-value physical goods.

I've held a merchant account for more than 20 years, write PayPal integration code, and have one of their accounts too.

I'll never take it for anything of significant value -- there is literally nothing you can do if it gets charged back, and it both can and will irrespective of what PayPal tells you. If the originating funding comes from a credit card and the user charges the card back it will flow back to PayPal, be charged back to you, and if you have linked it to your bank account they can and will reach back into your BANK to get the funds. Yes you agreed to that, and if you try to get cute (by moving the money out of there before they can grab it) they'll sell the account to collections instantly which will trash your credit AND get you sued.

BTW, even if you don't get scammed there's another problem -- PayPal will 1099 you if you run material receipts through them. If you are running a business that's not a problem, since you're reporting income + expenses and paying taxes on the net profit, right? But if you're NOT running a business and this transaction is the disposal of personal properry there is frequently (depending on circumstance) no tax due (especially if there was no profit made.) Unfortunately if you get a 1099-MISC you're going to pay ordinary income rates on that payment and if you're not in business I bet you can't document your basis, which makes it zero -- and that means you pay your marginal rate (in other words the IRS could steal as much as 40% of the money!)

No, that's not a joke and if it happens you won't be laughing.

Never accept PayPal.

I only take $100 Paypal deposit to hold a machine. I haven't had any problems selling machines for cash over the last 12 years.

Bought and sold via paypal, no issues.

Just be cautious as always but it's acceptable. There are horror stories as PayPal is often easily abused and this is probably the worst and notorious one: http://gizmodo.com/5872958/paypal-smashed-some-ladys-antique-violin-and-can-smash-yours-too That is on the crazy spectrum however.