Tron certainly isn't a deep game by any means. I like deep games but if Tron was too much
deeper than it already is, it would be all but impossible to complete.

The games just don't last that long and it has so many random elements to it. You could play
10 games of Tron in the time the same player could play 1 game of SM, LOTR or TSPP.

I realize that Tron and Funhouse have a similar lay out but on any Funhouse game I've ever
played, the Rudy shot was considerably easier than the Gem shot on Tron. There is plenty
of discussion online regarding the difficulty of the Gem shot, I don't recall the same sort of
talk about the Rudy shot being all that hard.

What is hard is trying to skill shot the gem shot. I heard it is possible, and I try for this everytime, and can't imagine how it can work.

I've done it a few times. It isn't easy but very possible. Just have to plunge soft enough to get the ball to the edge of the lane guide and the design of it will cause the ball to fall off to the left a bit and onto the rollover switch. Kinda cool when you can get it.

What smassa said.

When I purposely plunge to get the Gem shot, I can get it occasionally.
Not really consistently enough to make it worth while. If you could do
it consistently it would make the game much easier.

Thank you. This is certainly a thread worth reviving. I am the one who revived it and you can clearly see that others would like to speak. THANK YOU ALL! THANK YOU STERN! TRON IS HERE TO STAY! tell me what pin sucks you in like this one, id love to know. For those of my friends whom dont know much about pinball, they call me days later and say " i cant get over tron" they get aggravated, intrigued, and wont stop stepping up to it for another play! Perhaps i take it off free play for a few days. lol. again thanks for continuing to post about the pin.

One thing that bugs me about this game is the distinct lack of information that the game feeds back to the player of what you have to do to get through modes... When I had mine, after around 100 or so games I decided to look to Pinball News to find out how to play it... I ended up writing down a table of what you had to do to start each mode, to finish each mode and to max the points on each mode... I then had that as a crib sheet next to the game... Of course after several 100 games you'll get to know what to do, but introduce the game to a friend and it's a pain having to try and explain... With TF, my next and 2nd NIB, totally different story... it's crystal clear what you have to do... turn brain off, hit flashing lights and play pinball!

The other gripe with Tron is that on first look it LOOKs like theres plenty of modes and therefore scope for plenty of depth... then you play it and see that quite often Flyn and Recogniser modes are completed with general flailing around... That's when I got the feeling that I'd been conned in a way... there's a false sense of depth with those inserts that are really 'nothing' modes... Stern could have added another insert for yet another mode: Flipper mode: press one flipper to start, and the other to complete... It would be ABOUT as challenging as Recogniser mode

Does the current code still allow you to start AND complete those two modes with 4 hits of the ball?

Then theres the tiny timer bars for the three TRON target initiated things... Double scoring, super pops and super spinner... yet for the most inportant timed mode: Zuse, there's no bar...

Then there's the Gem shot difficulty which I sincerely believe that Stern screwed up on... surely they wouldn't intentionally block that shot so much with the 'U' target that it can't be hit with normal speed balls around the right loop or from the plunger??

Very pretty lights on the ramps though, and that ball spins like crazy off the disk!

Wow, you stink

My LE has about 600 plays and I have seen portal at least 50 times

Ok......none

I got Daft Punk multi a handful of times (that's kind of good)

The Tron design was stolen from FH, as I'm sure you know. I find the same shot harder with hitting Rudy as well when trying to do it off a right loop shot compared to a shot from the lock spitting it out.

What you have written sort of confirms my first impressions, and what I feared would be the case. It's been very hard to get a good feel for this game, as everyone on pinside that has it seems to be more in love modding it and the overall look achieved, than discussing the play. I'm NOT saying modding is a bad thing, or talking about it, but it has clouded the play value of this machine from a review stand point, and IMO over hyped this machine.

It seems fun, a good quick and dirty type of machine, which doesn’t mean bad, and games don’t have to be deep to be good/fun, but I'll stand behind not considering it a top 20 by any means, even with my limited play on it.

For a ripped off layout, and no depth, no more than the 22 year old machine it was ripped off from, Stern gets 0 points in my book. I know that is a strong comment for people that love this machine, but anyone can do this - take the TAF or any other winning machine, use the exact PF layout, change the bookcase to something else, maybe move slightly a couple other things, and not add much more depth, and make something still enjoyable to play. All the basics are already done, the hard work, and the craft in the shots and the flow is already there. Tron is here in your homes because of Lawlor, NOT cyborg. Stern added nothing to this, other than the theme, which again, isn’t theirs either. X-men is the same thing with the Stargate layout.

Man I’m in a bitchy mood today, but whatever, it’s all true. I need a coffee...

And interestingly, Funhouse is a couple of positions higher in the charts than TRON

I prefer TRON over Funouse anyday because FH is ugly and I find Rudy so f**ing annoying!!

Tron has the same basic layout as FH, sure... and Congo... but it also has something different from those games too, so I'm not sure it's fair to say the design was 'stolen' from FH... inspired by, maybe...

Same will be true of any game with similar flipper layout due to ball momentum... at higher speeds the ball has to be hit higher up the flipper to get to the same target... with TRON it's impossible to hit GEM above a certain 'not too high' ball speeds because the higher point you need to contact the ball means that the 'U' target interferes with the elevated ball path. With Rudy it's harder with faster balls, yes, but I'm not sure it becomes impossible during normal gameplay as GEM does.

I used to think that, but it was made to be fugly and annoying. That in time is the charm I think. Tron has a "cooler" look for sure, but I love the FH package as a whole.

Anyway, I should probably stay out of this thread now I see you are still winning in our race to 100.

Admittedly, I'm still in the honeymoon phase, but I happen to love the gameplay, including the challenge of the Gem shot. The game demands my full attention while playing, and forces accurate shots. The do-or-die aspect of SOS is very appealing to me. The short ball times are nice, especially when playing multiple players. Flynn and Recognizer mode are a bit of a weak spot.

As far as modding, I have so far added Hallmark cycles, target bank top decal, ramp/scoop Cliffys, colored Cliffy post sleeves, black flipper bats, colored flipper rubber, and white rings. Pretty much par for the course.

On my AFM, I've added the ColorDMD, Bill Ung UFO LEDs, shaker motor, etc. Way more money put into those than I have in Tron. Does that means it needs those things to be an appealing game? NO! They're just fun additions.

They certainly succeeded on that one

Ahhh yes, the old race to 100 I've been buying a few 'flippers' recently, and once they're out of the way, I'll be back to a reasonable number... If another purchase oppertunity comes along in the meantime it may well tip me over the 100 mark and I can claim my victory

Nothing makes me happier than Stern re hashing good table layouts with a new game and modern theme. All the good game play if not better but all new. Perfect!

It's inevitable that some aspect designs will be rehashed as there is a finite amount of space for a playfield. Designers have to think about so much to make these games appealing to the widest market of people. 3 flipper game layouts will tend to look like other 3 flipper games - Funhouse/Tron or fan layout Sopranos/LOTR. This really doesn’t bother me.

The Gem shot sucks and for me is very tough to get set up. I have to shoot the Quorra with the right flip then attempt with upper left. If I shoot the outer orbit with the left flip, the ball travels to quick and I end up shooting the ramp shot. It's the most unsatisfying shot to make in pinball. Even if you make the shot correctly it bangs and clunks around its mini orbit to the pop bumpers. It's never smooth and always awkward... (that's what she said"). Still this shot doesn’t kill the game for me.

How does this affect my rating of the game after owning one now for 6 or 7 months? Not that much really. I still give it a high 8 out of 10. It's one of Sterns best attempts in the past decade behind LOTR, SM, and FGY. It's a top 5 pin for Stern. Overall is it a top 20 game in all of pinball? For right now 11/7/2012 on Pinside it is and I believe it is. Its a very gratifying pin to play and most people will walk away saying "that was fun!" which is what it's all about.

Thanks,
Mike
www.HabosArcade.com

I love the Gem shot. For some reason I find it easier to hit than Quorra. With Quorra there's pretty much only a single way to hit her from the right flipper whereas with Gem I can plunge for her, hit her after Quorra or the right orbit, or perhaps the easiest way of all, bounce the ball off the TRON targets. I love hearing that Gem sound. (The software needs to be updated so it always makes that sound, because right now there are times when you hit Gem and don't get any audio feedback. Hopefully in the next update this will be remedied.)

Seems like the pins that engender this much debate/discussion/love-hate are usually the top-tier pins ................ just sayin'.

In my mind, whenever anyone writes or says "just sayin" after what they write or say, it clearly announces that they don't know how to say anything.

please please post a vid showing your skill! that shot is the hardest thing i ever saw in pinball!

the other day i shot it with the lower right flipper, bounced on something i can't remember.
the gem shot is like a luck shot. you get it much more times out of luck.. and that makes the game so hard i love it!

Have yet to see and can't quite envision what to do. Can you post a video of this plunge on youtube?

No video, but plunge just hard enough to barely clear raised area of the launch lane. When the ball falls off the raised area, it will tend to move perpendicular to the ball guide in that area, toward the Gem switch.

Oh, and lots of times, you'll see the Light cycle collection on the DMD rather than Gem.

Awww c'mon Props --- It's a quip, a retort, a tongue-in-cheek send-off to my post. And I did have something to say -- Tron has created a lot of buzz and excitement from a large base of pinheads because it's a got a lot going for it. We don't see a whole lot of people passionately arguing about the top-tier worthiness of an Austin Powers or a Shrek.

buuuahahaha. why even mention them here? tron is right now a top 20 pin. period.

A stock one, or one with $2000 in mods?

$2k in mods??? Seems a little high. Ive got maybe $600-700 into mine.

Only things I plan to add are LEDs and Eli's fiber ramp kit. I totally enjoy the game with out this stuff, but I think it will help the aesthetics.

I think that it's hard to get a feel for most games on review sites period, and Tron is no exception to that - the majority of people on *any* game make comments that are so simple and skimmed over that it is really hard to get any sort of read on it. It's like X-Men comes out, and you have two people really in-depth trying to review it, and a bunch of people claiming, "BEST GAME EVER!" and "HATE IT. AVOID."

I hate to say this, but who can you ever really believe in situations like this? Pinball doesn't have a large enough reviewing mass of people to make it so that outliers can be overcome by the sheer mass of people reviewing them. On top of that, the mass of collectors that have come into the hobby lately are seemingly as interested in looks as they are in gameplay - based on the sheer rise of mods and stuff like that. I agree, that isn't really a bad thing, but when you have a beautiful game like Tron LE and a high percentage of those go into collectors hands who love the way that these games look, that is going to unfairly bump those games.

I haven't played enough of Tron to know exactly where I rate it, but I personally don't care too much for Fun House (sorry!), so I'd put it above that. Then again, I'm also someone who strongly believes that similar layouts do not create similar playing titles (JP / Whirlwind comes to mind - I think they play NOTHING alike and I like them both) and I'm also someone who generally has super weird tastes. I definitely don't think that mine are right, but I have found that I really can' trust just about anyone's opinions on games until I can really play and understand them myself.

LOL! That's all??? Jesus.

Xpin Blue DMD & Tron arcade unit 2.1 is over $550 combined. Shaker & pinbits plastic kit probably push it around $700. Dont see the big deal since its all personal preference.

It is not only personal preference it is just plain fun to mod Tron.

I've asked a few times on topics about Tron and never got an answer, so I'll see if asking the question directly gets a response:

Does the current code still allow you to complete Flynn and Recogniser 'modes' with just 4 shots (one for Flynn and 3 for recogniser) or has a code update made them a bit more challenging?

I found it almost insulting to the intelligence of the pinball playing public to have them as 'modes' as they were and just wondered if the clear admiration for the game is partly a result of that element being rectified?

Another thing that disappointed me about this game is that one of the selling points was 'the rules have changed', and with this I was expecting something really special in the rule set to make it something amazing... which is why I pulled the trigger on it NIB before these incredibly deep and strategical games sold out and became impossible to pry from the clutches of the owners... When I looked a bit deeper into what this meant after getting the game home (the last one the distributor had by the way), it turns out that recent Sterns prior to TRON had solid lights on the modes which were merely started, and when complete they blinked... but with TRON this was reversed... That is apparently what 'the rules have changed' actually meant... the way the lights on the modes work to show you what's complete and what's started!!

This and the false impression of depth from modes that are not actually modes is why I refer to this as the Paris Hilton of pinball... pretty, but false and shallow

I know it's not a popular view of this game, but if potential buyers are looking for an all round view of it, the other side of the coin should be exposed also...

I dont think Tron was ever viewed as a deep/strategic mode style game but more of a fast action kick ass style game. Maybe once you grasp this you will enjoy what it has to offer. If not by the looks of your collection you have plenty of other options. Not every game has to be super deep like LOTR or TSPP to be enjoyable.

The Flynn & Recognizer inserts are hardly the "meat & potatoes" of Tron. There is plenty of other stuff going on to keep the game challenging.

TRON is a great game but it is flavor of the month at the moment. I nearly bought one but the Gem shot is a pain in that it seems like a design fault as opposed to a tough shot.

I thought the same thing for a while but once you figure out what to do (give the machine a slight nudge to the right as ball exits Quorra) It makes the shot a ton easier. Ive been hitting it at about a much higher rate now since I was told about this technique. It isnt supposed to be an easy shot so I feel its challenging enough to make it very rewarding when you pull the shot off.

I can certainly relate to this, and fully agree that a game doesn't have to be deep to be fun... I like BSD for example, and many other non-deep games... too deep for me is not great anyway... I think what bugged me with TRON is that it seemed to give the impression of at least having an intriguing strategy, what with the statement that 'the rules have changed' and with several mode lights, but scratch below the surface and you find that it's tricks and mirrors... I felt cheated to be honest...

I have to agree with this, I really can't believe that it was Stern's intent to force players into having to develop tricks of nudging the game to get the ball to come away from the ball guide, or bouncing it off other parts of the game, or having crazily difficult skill shots. I modified my game slightly to make GEM possible in normal pinball play methods (like simply shooting the ball at it), and it was a massive improvement... no longer did the game live in the shadow of this shot, but it's true colours were revealed, and it was way way batter to play... I could finally see the game as I believe it was intended, but the lack of strategy and depth made it not worth the money the game was commanding to hang onto it... Sure, if the game was around the $2k mark I'd have probably kept it, but it just wasn't giving me $8k's worth of pleasure.

Ok, played it many times over at a friends. I get it now. I think I would tire of it to own in a way similar to JM, though. To answer the OP question, at this point I say yes, it is.

Now...."is it worth 10 grand" is a whole different question.

Now...."is it worth 10 grand" is a whole different question. It isn't Christmas yet.

Flavor of the month? TRON has been out now for 16 months. Do you mean flavor of the past 16 months?

Yes how many years does it need to be a great game for to not be listed as flavor of the month?
One thing about Tron it usually is not love at the first play. It can take some people a bunch of games to then say wow that is just fun just one more game no really just one more game repeat……

The direct response is yes, 4 shots will complete 2 modes. If you are particularly skillful, you can complete 2 modes with 2 shots. When the inserts are rotating in front of the recognizer, hit the lit one and you will bring down the target. This will complete the Recognizer objective/mode.

If you are not able to hit the lit one, you can hit the left, middle and right target to complete the recognizer mode. Based on my experience with Tron LE, you will be hard pressed to make all three shots in consecutive order as it can be very tough to gain control of the ball once you have hit the recognizer. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that it is incredibly tough to do.

As for Flynn, you can complete the mode by finding the lane adjacent to the Arcade Scoop. Sure, you can do a soft ball launch and quickly earn Flynn. It's a quick and easy way to complete the mode. However, if you attempt other skill shots off the launch, it becomes 10X more difficult to work the ball behind the arcade scoop to reach the Flynn lane.

Completing Recognizer or Flynn is not as tough as completing LCMB or Quorra or Gem, but unless your strategy in approaching the mode completion is sound, you can find yourself on your final ball needing Flynn and without a ball launch option, it might be a little tougher than expected.

In my opinion, Tron is perfectly in synch with the phrase "Do it right, do it slight. Do it wrong, do it long.". You can complete LCMB quickly with a three shot combo. You can complete Quorra with a 2 shot combo. The existence of these combos does not in any way make LCMB and Quorra easy. The speed and flow of Tron can turn these "easy" combo shots into ridiculously hard comb shots.

And the inclusion of Recognizer and Flynn into the "modes" designation is not an insult to the intelligence of a player. A "mode" is simply an objective. Some modes are deeper and more complex than others. With Tron, Stern is making an attempt to keep pinball players engaged by offering enough variety in the modes to allow for progress within the game. As a more experienced and skillful player, you may not appreciate the Flynn and Recognizer modes. But I have personally seen new and novice players attempt game after game on Tron. I've even had conversations with them. And almost to a person, the progress that they can visually see on Tron helps drive their desire to play another game. So it seems to me that Stern's approach is working as they intended.

I hope you felt that this was a direct answer to your question. I added some of my own opinions as to why I felt it was the proper approach on Tron. If your objective is to simply complete Flynn and/or Recognizer, then that feat can be accomplished easily. However, it becomes a tad more difficult when you have to develop a strategy that allows you to complete these two easy modes while also putting yourself in a position to complete the more difficult modes.

Marcus

I hated Tron at first but after about 10 games I started to "get it". Now, Tron is the only game I own that I still put tokens in at the local arcade. It's that fun.

The way you describe Recognizer doesn't seem right. I actually LIKE your version and wish it was this way.

The way I remember it... on the LE... hitting the Recognizer target that corresponds to the flashing insert, it just counts as two hits instead of one. I think you need a total of four hits to the Recognizer bank to drop it (initially). I don't think there is any requirement to hit the left, middle, and right target to complete the mode.

But again, I really like the way you describe it and I wish it was that way. Would add a little more skill to this "mode".

Wow, the code must have moved on a bit then... when I had mine I'm sure the recogniser targets all acted as one big target... Or maybe I just never noticed them acting independantly... I always seem to remember the target bank coming down after three shots... It was at least 6 months ago though...

This just started the mode on mine... to complete it I had to then hit the roving 'Flynn' target. I would very often start Flynn this way by going for the arcade scoop skill shot and missing it, which would accidentally start Flynn...

I respect your opinion, I'm just saying how it felt to me... I would very often see these modes complete without any clue as to how I completed them... i.e. with zero effort or even knowledge of even trying for them... that just felt too easy and I personally felt that the inserts were a way to give a false impression of depth... I can see what you're saying though about Stern wanting to give a novice the feeling of progress by getting these light's lit, and it's good marketing for sure.

Perfect Marcus, and thanks for taking your time to reply with such detail, and yoru opinions are greatly welcome too!

Tron is the only games that I seem to keep hitting replay.

I like XM or PotC but one game is sufficient, Tron would be the one game I'd keep out of my five.

Hrm. I'll take the glass off and double check it. My Tron memory may be a bit wonky.

Marcus

Pinballslave, where did you read that they claimed 'The Rules Have Changed' as one of the selling
points for Tron?

I've seen them use the punchline, "The Game Has Changed", but that is simply a line from the
movie and the name of a song from the soundtrack.

I agree with you, the rules are nothing ground breaking but the game is hard enough to reach Portal
as it stands. If I was getting to Portal every 10 games or so, then I would agree that there isn't
enough software there.

It could use some polishing though, when you play CLU, it says, "that was impressive" regardless
of how you fare on the mode, as an example.

Tron a top 20 game?

If I had it my way it would be top 10! The game has a simple ruleset but one that is sometimes tough to make your way through. Amazing art, colours, ramps and lightshow. No expensive playfield toys so the ball is free to visit every area of the playfield with some wide and some tight shots. It's up there with Indiana Jones: The Pinball Adventure and The Addams Family for best intergration of a theme to pinball. Borg is now one of my all-time favourite designers just because of this table alone.

Blind_Willie said:

because it's a got a lot going for it

Either...it's that good P E R I O D

It could use some polishing though, when you play CLU, it says, "that was impressive" regardless
of how you fare on the mode, as an example.

I was thinking of this last night as another thing that really bugs me about it... I hate being complimented irrespective of how crap I do... You start Clu, loose the ball immediately and you get complimented... it just makes me think in my head: ' What do you mean 'that was impressive', NO, it was total crap... I'm playing like shit, can't you see that!! What was impressive, what what???' And it just adds to the whole false and shallow feeling I got from it... Paris Hilton comes to mind yet again

I suppose this also appeals to the 'novice' as was mentioned...

The 'The rules have changed' came from reading Pinball News, here is the part where I got it from:

The_rules_have_changed.JPG

My TRON memory is a bit wonky too, so my 'three hits' recolection is definitely flakey

Pretty accurate, xcept for spidey. I was not impressed.

Ummm I believe the game is being sarcastic. Kinda in the way Stane gives you the "well that worked out well" line when you botch up Monger Multi ball on Iron Man.