(Topic ID: 280704)

Is this Bally Hoo scoremotor too slow/noisy?

By Izzydorio

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 15 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Izzydorio
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

player unit up (resized).png
player unit reset (resized).png
player reset (resized).png
scoremotor front (resized).jpg
scoremotor back (resized).jpg
match relay (resized).png
gameover relay (resized).png
#1 3 years ago

I own a Bally Hoo (1969) and another EM machine (Bally Air Aces, 1976).
I'm restoring the Bally Hoo and I notice that the score motor is a lot slow AND noiser then my other EM machine (which is only 7 years younger).

Here's avideo demonstrating:

Can I do somehting about it? Should I?

The motor is doing it's job (it works as expected). The gears are not more dirty then you'd expect at their age, nor over-greased..

#2 3 years ago

That speed looks similar to my same era Rocket III.

One thought, is it possible the machine is a US import and you have the wrong Hz motor for your 50 Hz region? The motors are listed here;
http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1971/index.html#/58/zoomed

#3 3 years ago

I cleaned the gears with some alcohol, but that didn't improve speed or noise.
The reason I think it's maybe too slow is, in 90% of the cases, whenever you start your last ball (be it 3rd or 5th, depending on the adjustment setting), the game immediately switches to 'game over' after the ball has been ejected into the outlane.

A video where you can see this happening (you can see the cutover from 4th to 5th ball, the ball ejects, and then game over is activated)

The game over coil is activated by the match relay:

...and the match relay is triggered by the player reset coil, when the last ball is played..

Somy guess is:

*ball drains, activating score motor and advancing ball count unit to the last ball
*ball is ejected into the outlane
*because ball count unit is in the last ball, (and possibly because score motor is too slow???) match relay is triggered by the player reset coil, which in turn activates game over...

Any thoughts?

gameover relay (resized).pnggameover relay (resized).pngmatch relay (resized).pngmatch relay (resized).png
#4 3 years ago

Furthermore, looking at this video, I can definitively say that my scoremotor is a lot slower...

One thought, is it possible the machine is a US import and you have the wrong Hz motor for your 50 Hz region? The motors are listed here;

I checked my score motor, it says "50 CY", which, I guess, means 50 Hz Cycle, so no issues there..

#5 3 years ago

I've used 60hz score motors in export models and never had issues.

#6 3 years ago

If you know the motor model, what about timing some revolutions, working out and checking the rpm against spec
https://www.pin-games.se/parts/motors/Motor.htm

#7 3 years ago

I have similar era Bally’s, Bon Voyage and Monte Carlo, with similar score motors. I can’t access these by lifting the playfield for now due to medical restrictions, but I will offer some thoughts based on what I have seen and the schematics.

The speed of the score motor seems fine to me. I wouldn’t worry about it going faster. As far as I know, having the score motor run slower won’t affect anything as far as functionality, the timing will all still work the same because it’s all mechanically driven. It will just take a little longer to finish if the score motor runs slow. Later when I am able I can take some videos.

I am curious how you were able to clean the gears. On both of mine the gearbox is sealed, or riveted together. The only way to get at the gears would be to drill it out, then fit in some screws afterwards.

I think your last ball problem is not connected to the score motor itself. Your pics of the schematic and ideas look good, but the question is why is the player reset relay activating too early? A switch on that relay is actually what activates the match relay which then causes the game over. Look all the way on the right side of the schematic at the player reset relay and it’s connection to the player up unit disc and coin unit disc. Possibly something is out of adjustment on one of those units.

#8 3 years ago

The thing is, for this specific machine I cann't find what scoremotor is supposed to be in there. There are plenty, all with different RPMs.

If I look at this video of another Bally Hoo, at the start of the video you can see the score reels reset. That happens rather fast, certainly faster then my machine is doing it...

Attached are some pictures of the score motor in my machine.
It clearly says "Spec 372" and "Spec 1526"
Based on this page: https://www.pin-games.se/parts/motors/Motor.htm (look for 372), it is suposed to make 26 RPM. Mine only does (I actually counted them!!) ~19 RPM..
(And on the back side, see photo, it says "RPM E119" ??)

My gearbox is riveted, but I could tear it open to clean the gears.

The player reset relay is triggered because the ball is drained, thereby activating the ball return relay (see schematics attached).. no??

player reset (resized).pngplayer reset (resized).pngscoremotor back (resized).jpgscoremotor back (resized).jpgscoremotor front (resized).jpgscoremotor front (resized).jpg
#9 3 years ago

50/60 Hertz was mentioned earlier. What about the voltage going to your motor. Did someone not tap the transformer correctly for your line voltage? That would provide low (or high) voltage to the game causing your motor to turn slowly.

Do you have a Variac (variable transformer)? You could set it to the proper voltage for the motor [50 VAC] and check the revolutions.

#10 3 years ago

I'll check the voltages.
No idea how to check the 50/60 Hz actually...

#11 3 years ago

Your score motor part number is stamped E119 372.

I recommend using the 1976 parts manual most of the time. The reason is, the Bally documentation can be off here and there due to sloppy proofreading and attention to detail. Sometimes there are errors or inconsistencies in the information that will leave you scratching your head in confusion. I have seen this before and here is another example.

Here is the 1971 catalog again as posted before.

http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1971/files/mobile/index.html#58

Under Note C it says:

Motor E-119-411 is recommended replacement for Motor E-119-372, formerly used in 60 cycle areas.

This would seem to imply that your motor E-119-372 is a 60 cycle version. But, I think someone was confused when they wrote Note C. This is because the information in the 1976 catalog is completely different. I go under the assumption that the newer catalog has the more accurate information and errors corrected.

Here is the same page from the 1976 catalog.

http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1976/files/mobile/index.html#35

Note C seems to make a lot more sense on his page, as it is discussing the alternate uses of 50 cycle motors as an option to the “standard” 60 cycle. Here is what it says:

Motor E-119-460 is used in areas operating on 50 cycles current.

Motor E-119-460 is recommended replacement for Motors E-119-411 and E-119-372, formerly used in 50 cycles areas.

So based on all of this, I conclude that your motor 372 is the original correct 50 cycle version used in the Bally Hoo. Later it was replaced by the 411 and then later after that by the 460.

Now what we don’t know is why they decided to use these replacements for the 50 cycle motors. The 60 cycle version seems to have stayed consistent at #354 with no changes between 1971 and 1976. Maybe there were some problems with the earlier 50 cycle versions? This would take more research to sort out.

We do know you have an earlier version 50 cycle version. You could replace it with a #460 as recommended, but I don’t think any of these motors are available any more.

After all this however, I still think your score motor speed and function is fine. This is only my opinion based on looking at my 2 Ballys of similar era.

I am still looking at the circuit description and thinking about your problem with the last ball.

1 week later
#12 3 years ago

Good news - sorta.
I have another Bally game - which has he E-119-460 motor (which, by the way, is almost totally noiseless). I swapped it into the Hoo and the issue persists. The difference in speed is noticable (when resetting score reels for example).

So it aint score motor-speed related.
The score motor receives the needed voltage (~50V AC).

Back to the schematics, I guess..

#13 3 years ago

I think I know why the gameover thing happens.

If you look at this video of my "player up unit" you'll notice 2 things:

* the first contact strip is actually twice the width of the other contact strips
* due to mechanical friction, the "reset" doesn't actually reset to the beginning position.

My theory:
At the begining of a new ball, the player up unit is reset (sounds reasonable).
Right after, the player up unit is "set" for the first player.

Because of the reset not actually working (not going to position 0), another "path" is chosen and the machine thinks it's game over

(attach both schematics for player up reset and player up "up")

I tried 'wounding' the spring, I cleaned the contacts & the disk, and I actually polised the disk, the goal being to have less friction. But to no avail...

Ideas?

player unit reset (resized).pngplayer unit reset (resized).pngplayer unit up (resized).pngplayer unit up (resized).png
#14 3 years ago

A thin layer of Teflon gel lube should help with that problem.

#15 3 years ago

Applying the least possiblme tension on the contact reel pushing down on the disc and applying some lube on the disk fixes my problem. Yay!

Thanks everyone involved.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-this-bally-hoo-scoremotor-too-slow-noisy and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.