(Topic ID: 280451)

Is this a ground plane? EM grounding questions...

By loomis

3 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by mbwalker
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Hello,

So on my 1969 Willams Paddock, I did the following:

The soldering to the power transformer primary was not well done at all. Like barely attached.

So I removed the old two-prong, non-polarized power cord, and wired in a new three-prong cord.

I wired new wires so that the the power cord now goes (hot > fuse > on/off switch > 117v transformer primary), and (neutral > transformer common primary).

I ran the ground to a transformer lug (which was already there, but not connected to the power cord, since it was a two-prong cord), and then ran a ground wire to a coin door bolt.

But what is this thing, just a ground plane?

Just leave these wires floating in space on this terminal strip / turret board like this?

Thanks!

ground_plane (resized).jpgground_plane (resized).jpg
#2 3 years ago

That is fine. The other connection for the green would be to the transformer frame.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide

#3 3 years ago

Yes, but I'm asking more specifically about that seeming ground strip / plane. Thanks

#4 3 years ago

I tried to find this on the schematic, but didn't spot in the few min I looked at it.

What's the strip made out of? It almost looks like metal? Or is it an insulating material?

#5 3 years ago

Can't tell by looking, but if it's metal, it would be a place for making ground connections. Seems odd that all those various colored wires would be ground. If it's insulating material, then probably a convenient place for testing those various circuits and missing a wiring label.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Can't tell by looking, but if it's metal, it would be a place for making ground connections. Seems odd that all those various colored wires would be ground. If it's insulating material, then probably a convenient place for testing those various circuits and missing a wiring label.

I was thinking the exact same thing on both your comments. Seems like an expensive way just to measure a test point, plus I didn't spot anything on the schematic that resembled a test point terminal strip. But only owned one EM, so not much experience working on them.

#7 3 years ago

If you look at the schematic there are basically three main busses. I would imagine it is the one on the left (top) of the schematic.

https://ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1735

#8 3 years ago

I see two things in the picture of note.

1. That row of tie points may be something of benefit to the manufacturing process, but not intended for operator use. I've never seen a LABELED strip of tie points in an EM game.

2. That washer that got loose inside the cabinet and landed perilously close to where it could short out the line-voltage tie points. If there are loose metal parts around, I'd suggest putting some kind of insulated cover over the hot connection. For example, you could take the clear plastic shield normally used on a coin switch. When you move the lower cabinet on a hand truck, loose metal parts land in unexpected places.
.................David Marston

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from loomis:

Hello,
So on my 1969 Willams Paddock, I did the following:
The soldering to the power transformer primary was not well done at all. Like barely attached.
So I removed the old two-prong, non-polarized power cord, and wired in a new three-prong cord.
I wired new wires so that the the power cord now goes (hot > fuse > on/off switch > 117v transformer primary), and (neutral > transformer common primary).
I ran the ground to a transformer lug (which was already there, but not connected to the power cord, since it was a two-prong cord), and then ran a ground wire to a coin door bolt.
But what is this thing, just a ground plane?
Just leave these wires floating in space on this terminal strip / turret board like this?
Thanks![quoted image]

That strip is a feature expansion... One can see two punch marks for a relay assembly to be inserted and incorporated into the existing wire harness... Extra coin feature? Extra ball feature? I do not know.

#10 3 years ago

Thanks guys thus far.

1) Dmarston - That's the rear washer for the bolt that holds the circuit board down to the bottom of the cabinet. No worries. I'll rotate the neutral lead away a tad.

2) I looked at all the Williams games made in 1969 and 1970, looking for Pinside or IPDB or Google photos of machines' innards that were made during that time that also have that rogue turret / tie-in board inside.

Williams' Aces and Kings (1970) also has a turret / tie-in board like this as well.

Vec-tor, you're right, there are two screw holes to the right of this tie-in board that must be there for some future expansion that never happened. At first I thought for sure a relay assembly was completely missing and I was in deep trouble. I wonder if it has something to do with the Paddock and Post Time machines being made on the same assembly line at the same time. They're both very similar. I'd be curious to find a photo of the main circuit board of a Post Time, but none are online that I can find. Anyone?

Thanks

#11 3 years ago

Distribs of that time might discourage variations, but it was possible for operators buying games new from the factory to specify how many coin chutes were installed and what pricing (and coin entry plates and acceptors) would be set up as the game was being built. Each game going down the line would have its own ticket to specify pricing options. This could affect the presence or absence of a "second chute relay" or "third chute relay" on the main relay board. Other manufacturers would also have an optional relay for 2-coins-1-play (for two nickels in the USA or Canada), but Williams accomplished that in a pure mechanical way. I think this supports @vec-tor's theory about coin/pricing related optional relays.
.................David Marston

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

Distribs of that time might discourage variations, but it was possible for operators buying games new from the factory to specify how many coin chutes were installed and what pricing (and coin entry plates and acceptors) would be set up as the game was being built. Each game going down the line would have its own ticket to specify pricing options. This could affect the presence or absence of a "second chute relay" or "third chute relay" on the main relay board. Other manufacturers would also have an optional relay for 2-coins-1-play (for two nickels in the USA or Canada), but Williams accomplished that in a pure mechanical way. I think this supports vec-tor's theory about coin/pricing related optional relays.
.................David Marston

David, that might also help explain, the more I think about it, why this machine is supposed to have (according to the manual) a 5¢ relay, but this machine doesn't have one... ?

#13 3 years ago

Definitely not a ground plane. My understanding of a ground plane relates to the rf world. Essentially as I understand it a ground plane is a “spring board “ if you will that an rf signal uses to get out in the atmosphere. If you’ve seen a cv antenna on someone’s home or an amateur antenna you may note there are sometimes, depending on the antenna three horizontal elements and one vertical. The horizontal elements make up the ground plane. In a boat that may have a SSB radio, the ground plane would be comprised of a copper screening material that is laid inside the hull and then connected to other “grounds” like tanks, engines really anything metallic to comprise the ground plane. Probably more than you wanted to know!

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

Definitely not a ground plane. My understanding of a ground plane relates to the rf world. Essentially as I understand it a ground plane is a “spring board “ if you will that an rf signal uses to get out in the atmosphere. If you’ve seen a cv antenna on someone’s home or an amateur antenna you may note there are sometimes, depending on the antenna three horizontal elements and one vertical. The horizontal elements make up the ground plane. In a boat that may have a SSB radio, the ground plane would be comprised of a copper screening material that is laid inside the hull and then connected to other “grounds” like tanks, engines really anything metallic to comprise the ground plane. Probably more than you wanted to know!

Thanks. That helps my understanding of ground planes. I think in this thread we've established that this thing is instead some sort of tie-in board that Williams did for custom orders, to tie-in different or future features possibly...

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from GPS:

Definitely not a ground plane. My understanding of a ground plane relates to the rf world. Essentially as I understand it a ground plane is a “spring board “ if you will that an rf signal uses to get out in the atmosphere. If you’ve seen a cv antenna on someone’s home or an amateur antenna you may note there are sometimes, depending on the antenna three horizontal elements and one vertical. The horizontal elements make up the ground plane. In a boat that may have a SSB radio, the ground plane would be comprised of a copper screening material that is laid inside the hull and then connected to other “grounds” like tanks, engines really anything metallic to comprise the ground plane. Probably more than you wanted to know!

I'm a RF design engineer(but don't design antennas, I design transmitters - what connects to the antenna). At my printed circuit board (PCB) level, it's really as simple as a ground that is considered to be a low impedance ground at RF frequencies. Could be a copper layer on a PC board, maybe a metal backer plate that is part of a PCB, a slab of metal that's also a heatsink, etc. A ground trace is usually inductive which represents a high impedance to RF...so not a good RF ground. Same with a wire, it's really an inductor. That's why in the RF world, quite often an entire layer of a PCB is copper, not traces. Plenty of other reasons to have a ground plane tho. For example, a ground plane might simply be used as a heatsink for a part - not RF.

That's sort of a generic explanation. But like everything, it can get complicated.

But since this isn't a newer pin, there's no RF. Just 60Hz (excluding a transient generated by a solenoid firing). So ground, even if thru a wire, is considered 'ground'. Interestingly, the newer Sterns with the metal backbox? Those are really EMI shields. Essentially a grounded case (i.e. a shield) which helps contains the high frequency digital signals which are really RF. Sort of like a ground plane, but being used as a RF shield instead. Used to pass FCC testing.

Hope I didn't derail the thread too much. Just thought I would toss out a simple explanation.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

I'm a RF design engineer.

O/T: Did you know that on a clear cool evening you can put your fingers on just the right capacitors
to a Bally S&T snd board and pickup radio stations.

#17 3 years ago

Not sure if you're pulling my leg or not...but I almost believe it! LOL

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

I'm a RF design engineer.

Can you answer my question? On my Bally Rolling Stones, when the ball hits either slingshot (and it activates), for a split second I hear a noticeable very HF sound. I tried to record it to play here, but you can't hear it on a recording....either because it's too faint, or because it's higher than the recording device can detect. It's not in my brain, there is a definite HF sound when that circuit is energized. None of my other early Bally SS do that. What could be causing that sound?

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Can you answer my question? On my Bally Rolling Stones, when the ball hits either slingshot (and it activates), for a split second I hear a noticeable very HF sound. I tried to record it to play here, but you can't hear it on a recording....either because it's too faint, or because it's higher than the recording device can detect. It's not in my brain, there is a definite HF sound when that circuit is energized. None of my other early Bally SS do that. What could be causing that sound?

Hey Jethro, I'll PM you later so we don't derail the OP's topic. While I design RF, far more smarter people here than me when it comes to pins, so take anything I say w/a grain of salt! Technically correct?...hopefully I'm right. Real life experience from fixing pins for 40 years?...nope, not me.

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