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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I like Gerry, he is a nice guy and the P3 is a neat idea. But... continually calling it the most innovative thing ever doesn't make it true.
Just putting a new idea, or "innovation", into practice doesn't mean it fits the bill when people ask for new things in pinball.
All that said, do I know what people in pinball want? Hell no. My own true level device was a flop by any measure.
LOL how else do you define “innovation” ? The Webster’s definition is exactly “a new idea”
Quoted from Blitzburgh99:Dimple-proof playfields would be a fantastic innovation.....
Um, P3 also has this solved.
Quoted from Yoko2una:I think the Pepper's Ghost effect had so much potential but was wildly underused. That's what turned me off from STH Prem. I love the idea of the projector but was afraid of its utilization, and that's the central feature of that game. With GB, they could've had ghosts everywhere doing different things, but they put in just one toy, it has a few ghosts, and that's about it. Coder was then probably pushed onto the next project and never got to fully explore its' true potential.
Agree, regarding GB. DI used it to GREAT effect. There are several modes that use it directly, if I recall correctly.
Quoted from riggy469:This. I get the cost of P3, and the platform itself is fantastic. I played Lexy along with the asteroids game before and enjoyed them. Heist looks fantastic. The only thing keeping me back is the price point. I’m not saying the system is overpriced, just out of my current range.
This is I think the reason a lot of people are down on P3. It’s a hard sell - that is a LOT of money for a game you’re not sure about, certainly for one you’ve never played.
Also, as much as I’m a strong believer in P3, I don’t think they really had the right mix until Heist.
Lexy is cool, great first product - Cosmic Cart racing is an AMAZING game, and it has the awesome
Magnetic lock system, but it shortchanged the casual player in terms of common pinball “world under glass” stuff. There aren’t any toys, decals, anything that really gives you a sense of where you are, what you’re playing. The screen does that, and to great effect, but just looking at the playfield you’re like “huh. It’s some tubes?” It does require playing it for real. I do think they should add some toys though 
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It’s a great idea except it’s impossible to do with zero lag, therefore it’s a non starter. Unless you can change the laws of
Time,
Space, and speed.
That WOULD be innovative !
I’m not so sure actually - I’ve been jamming with my band for a few months in real time - WITH video, and it’s within 20ms lag. The software is called “JamKazam” and is FREE (although we support them via donations since we use it regularly)
20ms is unbelievably good. I think the technology is there, but not in mass use. We have relatively fast connections but the game changer has been the intelligent packet prioritisation software. I’m not kidding, we are jamming as if we’re in the same room, it’s awesome.
Quoted from gstellenberg:I love this thread. I hate this thread.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
I lol’d
Quoted from CLEllison:I've been saying the exact thing as the OP for years. Innovation feels dead.
Most notable changes through out the years:
You had hybrid cross over machines (granny and the gators and baby pac)
Added spinning targets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
Added magnets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
Added magna save
Added CRT ALA Pinball 2000 (didn't change game play)
Added LCD screens (didn't change game play)
Added wireless (and still can't figure out how to do a Firmware check and automatically update a pin? Yikes) (doesn't change game play)
The P3 allows more dynamic game play because of it being largely software based but even then it doesn't really trip my trigger as it still feels too static.
Why not introduce a ton of randomness by adding more older technology and create a more dynamic experience? Subways with diverters so you never know what kick out you'll have the ball come from? Add a motorized kick out? Add a motorized coil plate that can change ever so slightly and launch balls out of a kick out differently due to English on the ball? I'm just spit balling but any deviation from the static game play would be welcomed with open arms by me.
And maybe, just maybe people aren't really wanting any real change and are happy with basically having new machines that are either a fan layout or stop and go. I feel like everything these days is basically the same machines with just different artwork and different toy.
I know the more they add the less money they make and potentially the more problems that can occur. The last thing OPs need is problems in the field.
If I was Gary Stern I'd run a contest and if your idea is selected then the first pin that uses your technology would be shipped to you for free as a thank you. Allowing community input would generate so much enthusiasm.
You largely just described AP's Houdini
Quoted from gstellenberg:The misconception that the P3 is "largely software based" is perhaps the most difficult one to break. The software capabilities continue to expand, but the machine is packed full of physical features, just like the one you suggested. It has 8 playfield VUKs built-in and ready for use under each playfield, and every ball that goes into any hole can be diverted to any one of the VUKs. How the game software makes use of that is up to the developer, but games like LL-EE and Heist route balls to unexpected places fairly often (and oftentimes instantaneously). Heist also has diverters on pretty much every one of the 7 flowing shot paths to change the game flow depending on the mode.
I felt that way too - so I started a company to do something different. If you're a fan of traditional pinball with really cool interactive toys, check out Heist, Lexy Lightspeed - Escape from Earth, and Cosmic Cart Racing 2.0. If you or your friends prefer something outside the box, check out the arcade and internet gameplay options in Cosmic Cart Racing, with racing heats and online head-to-head racing, or Cannon Lagoon. If you like pitch and bats, try out Grand Slam Rally. If you want to get your young children into pinball, try out Barnyard. If your teenagers gravitate to video games, show them ROCs. All together, we're up to 4 playfield modules and 10 game apps, and more are in development!
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Just a +1 on this... Heist in particular offers a perfect mix of traditional pinball “toys”, a “world under glass”, including all kinds of mechs as Gerry pointed out. It ALSO has the dynamic RGB lit scoop line, side targets and the awesome crane. Those features alone make it competitive with any other company’s standard “traditional” game.
Add to it the dynamic LCD playfield, the great software, virtual targets on the playfield, story line, multiple characters, the modular assembly AND the ability to build your own game. Check the “Quest for Glory” and “Ranger in the Ruins” threads. It’s crazy the stuff that’s packed into the platform.
Oh AND by the way you can buy the other games for about $2K...
Quoted from Rarehero:You’ve literally described P3. It’s literally an interactive playfield with all the components and toys.
Yeah i was a bit confused by this too.
I have found that there are a lot of people with opinions about "innovations" in pinball who have never really dealt with the actual game in question! (not talking about Tantrum; he's way ahead of the game - just check out his Pinsound thread!) But I think we are still in the midst of a period where people are wary about the new companies/ideas coming out. We had the Zidware and Heighway and DP debacles. But we also had AP start up, Multimorphic roar to the starting line with Heist this year (not to mention years of other innovations), and CGC rumored to be doing their own new title(s). All good news, but it's to be expected that there's a little hesitation given that we had almost 20 years of NO innovation whatsoever.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Barrier to entry to P3 is just too much for me and I think a lot of others. Once you’re in it’s awesome that additional games are only 3k.
Buy one Stern LE or basically any JJP game and you're pretty much there already!
Quoted from russdx:I still think there’s tons of innovation with custom size lcd screens ie whole apron could be lcd and using semi transparent lcd over the whole glass (like you see on some drinks cabinets) just need the price to drop and technology to advance a bit (it will) then hopefully we will see stuff like this in the future as it will keep a pinball looking like a pinball but add some quite cool visual features.
Really cool idea! I speculated that this might be a possibility when Deeproot was carrying on about how they were going to blow up the world, their innovations were going to be so awesome. I really do think a transparent LCD as glass over the *back* of the playfield (think the back 1/3 like where Multimorphic has the physical playfield) would be a great addition. You could mask where the ball is, have it come out unexpected places just by blocking the player's view (sort of a reverse Tommy?), and further the story by building new images in that area. Or What about a breakout style mini-game?
Quoted from chuckwurt:Sure. But you didn’t mention all the spooky games, AP games, and stern pros. Way cheaper if you want NIB.
Good point! But I was trying to compare the more expensive games on purpose 
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:This doesn't remind you of a video game you've maybe seen before (if you turn off the volume you can't hear him call it "...like Asteroids with pinball.")?
Again, I think the main issue why I just don't enjoy playing these as much as I wish is that the lower two-thirds of the playfield is barren of any physical/mechanical elements apart from the flippers & slings. I'm also just not a fan of the wall of popups that separate the screen part of the playfield from the mechanical part. Again, I've played these pins a few dozen times over the last 3-4 years at TPF, and they always seem to draw a crowd, but they just don't do it for me me.
The Metamorphic pins are full of innovation, but I'm just not sure they will have the same following/popularity that standard pinball has (pure speculation on my part as I have no idea what their unit sales are. However, I wish them nothing but success because any innovation that sustains the hobby is a good thing, IMO.
Ok come on - that's a little bit unfair, since the mini-games such as the one in your linked video are *supposed* to be like an arcade game. The full games have elements of this, but they are traditional pinball in terms of the modes, gameplay, shots, storyline, etc.
Quoted from Mbecker:Yep I think it’s fine that some people aren’t into P3, some are.
The lower 2/3 though, beyond the point that a number of ‘Standard’ games Don’t have elements in the lower 2/3 either and are tons of fun, I’m still looking towards more floating mechs that could/will be implemented in that area. The crane extending into that space is awesome.
I’d love to see some different ramp wireforms someday too. And maybe some MM trolls! (Just kidding)
The crane idea could be extended to a moving ramp too - with a small wheel underneath to help support and roll around, you could have a moveable ramp add-on that could rotate and work for multiple games.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:Fair enough.
I guess overall, what I'm saying is that if P3 technology could ever evolve into a fully populated playfield with the video panel underlay for both fixed and dynamic graphics, along with insert lighting, etc. then I think it would be a significantly more immersive experience and have broader appeal. I also realize that this may not be the vision of the creators, and even if it is then it will still take time to get there.
I'm not being critical of P3 at all (who am I to do so?), just trying to express why thus far it hasn't captured my desires to own one (which may very well change in the future). I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the innovation and engineering that P3 is bringing to pinball. I realize that things like this have to evolve, take a tremendous amount of resources, and required people that are "all in" to make it happen.
I’d love to see this too - I just randomly happened to compare the Heist playfield to a recent Stern game (Not calling out Stern, just happened to be what I was looking at), and I was surprised to see that the P3 slot wall (whats the proper term?) was closer to the player than almost all of the Stern playfield stuff. So it’s getting close!
Quoted from DanQverymuch:I do, and the answer is Yes.
Change the "Could" to "Will" and the answer is still Yes.
The day will come when the average pinball fanatic will use VR almost exclusively, and have any game they want with 100% realism, as well as many fantastically innovative games that would be impossible in the real world, and they will wonder why anyone would bother buying, collecting and maintaining whole rooms full of real machines.
Of course, everyone here now (2020) will still see the charm of real games, much as we do now for EMs, and competition might still work better on real games (though in many ways VR would be an improvement: no games breaking during play, no stuck balls mucking things up, no tilt-throughs, no intermittent switches, everyone could play at once, etc). But kids raised on perfect VR will think they are anachronistic.
I expect future Pinsiders will look back at this post as prophetic. I just hope I live to see it.
I’m curious if this does come to pass. IMO If a pinball game catches on, it will be a game where the player IS the pinball. Playing a table with one of those headsets is not (yet at least) very interesting. The tactile feedback which is critical to the “pinball experience” isn’t there yet. We have those gloves that can put pressure on your hands, but it’s not at all similar to feeling your whole body shake with a shaker, or even the smaller motions when you can feel pops going, a VUK, etc.
Quoted from zarco:The one thing I'm waiting for is OLED playfields where the graphics
change depending on mode. This will add another dimension to game
play. And its possible with the technology we have today.
Steve
Seriously. That’s a P3. I don’t think the screens are OLED but you’re not staring at the playfield that closely anyway
Quoted from djd9617:Could have an option to leave out the expensive mechs behind the coin door to save cost. Removing the hole for a door would exclude the operator market entirely; probably not a great move, even if that market has diminished. And I think a well maintained machine will last beyond 10 years easily. It might seem counterintuitive, but using several smaller boards instead of one monolithic board may actually lower the cost of the machine, make repairs easier, and make operation more reliable. Not that that's always the case, but I have to imagine that it's already done this way because it is in fact cheaper in the long run. In any case, stern has their "slightly more affordable" home pins. You should also be able to find used pins, granted, a couple years old, in about the same price range as that tractor. I think a big factor in cost is just man hours to build the things. Id be interested in looking at the # of employees for a given company, and compare that with the number of units they ship per day on avg.
I wonder if there’s any money in a DIY market? You buy a kit and put it together yourself. Think of the customer service support nightmare!!
I’m fairly sure the way Stern is doing it now is probably already the cheapest way to do components. They might be able to save in labor cost if they moved to some sort of monolithic board, or set of boards. Every game would use the exact same Insert board. Installed In the same spot in every game. LEDs everywhere! And of course you would need different layouts, so many of the LEDs Would not be used, but you would save immeasurably by reducing the labor factor.
Quoted from the9gman:I see the light. Most of the new makers have a problem with production and assembly and then shipping. Takes them forever to get off the ground. What if this were to go the way of Kit Planes ....if you had a company that supplied the play field plus parts, electronics , monitor and plug and play harness it would be much easier to field new games. shipping would definitely be cheaper. let the user make the cabinet or use an existing one and supply plans to make the cabinet universal so play fields could be swapped out and software could be loaded in. How many of us would go that route? I know your already saying P3 already does this and yea I think they are neat but I don't need a monitor under my play field and I could just see my grandfather getting up out of his grave and stating .....you spent 12,000 on a pinball machine "What are you stupid? If you want to spend that kind of money to each his own but I just can't pull that trigger. With this system you could get the price to 3 to four gran and get 4 machines for the price of one
I don’t quite understand your complaint about P3 here - are you saying that if they just created a static playfield image with corresponding inserts, light show, etc, but not such an active interface - that you would go for it? In other words, make it a bit more like traditional pinball?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:NOBODY WANTS SWAPPABLE PLAYFIELDS
It's been tried many times and it never catches on because it's a stupid idea.
Home buyers don't want them. Storing extra populated playfields in boxes takes up almost as much room as a game itself. Nobody wants a game room full of boxed playfields and one functioning game. Nobody wants to spends time swapping out playfields when they are drinking with their buddies. Nobody wants to say "hey check out my cool game room!" only to show off a room to their buddies with one generic cabinet and a ton of musty playfields in boxes.
Ops don't want them. Ops need equipment that earns, not a bunch of playfields in storage. Ops need attractive equipment to lure in dollars, not generic cabinets.
Both ops and home buyers have been given NUMEROUS chances over the past 45 years to latch on to the brilliantly innovative idea of "swappable playfields." Conversion kits. Pin2k. Doctor Who and Congo in the 90s...the "playfield swap" idea has ALWAYS failed and it will always fail yet this failed concept is always a rock star in every "innovation" thread.
I will agree with you on one thing: transporting and moving pinball machines is a huge pain in the ass. The greatest "innovation" of the past 50 years regarding this is Stern taking 20-30 pounds out of their pinball machines over the last decade. How was this innovation received by your average Pinsider? By endless bitching and whining about "build quality" and "stern is cheaping out!!"
Innovation: it ain't for pinball.
Wait wait.. what was Doctor Who swappable with?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Congo. They sold kits I believe. Weird right?
Isn't congo a WPC95 game? So you basically just keep the cabinet?
Quoted from gstellenberg:That's stupid. Nobody will want that. Viewer interaction isn't pinball! Leave well enough alone.
Or... maybe this will be really awesome and give people another (optional) way they can enjoy the pinball experience. I'm excited to see how people react to the interactions in CCR and how these features will evolve over time. If you have suggestions for cool ways to have viewers interact with gameplay, feel free to send them. We're all about listening to feedback and tweaking features to make pinball playing experiences more fun. Features like viewer interactions need to be carefully thought out to make sure they don't detract from the experience, but when done well, they can be game-changing!
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
LOL! I want to know how I can crash other cars in CCR via twitch!
Quoted from unigroove:Am I the only one thinking the new Avengers Infinity Quest pinball has some rather innovative features? Or at least features that come from something we've seen before, but taken a step further. Haven't seen any gameplay yet, so can't judge any code yet, but in terms of hardware Keith seems to be coming up with fresh ideas.
I'm behind on the Avengers thing. I saw there's some sort of vertical lock thing, but other than that nothing stood out. What other new features are in that game?
Quoted from gstellenberg:"emp:2"
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
That is awesome, I'm going to go read the docs.. haha
Quoted from sebgrinke:I would happily pay $20 for new game modes to download on an existing Stern. Am I the only one? (There probably isn't a big enough market to justify the development cost though.)
How about $700 for a cheap plastic topper and a game mode?
Quoted from sebgrinke:How about a device that stops the balls falling out if you lift the playfield with them still in the trough?
Seriously! Just buy a JJP game, or install the Pin2K bracket. But Stern doesn’t have one ! What!?
Quoted from TheLaw:Decades before that
That *particular* one was created for Pin2K. There probably are other machines with that feature. Kills me that Stern doesn't have it.
Quoted from TheLaw:Yes there are other machines before 2k, which is why i said it, and which makes it not innovative
Was P2k's right flipper crank only the first one? I'll take that all day
which machines?
Quoted from Zitt:Let's keep you honest... it's only $149 if you already have a Cosmic Cart Racing playfield module. Otherwise it's $2499+149 for the module and the game. If you don't have a P3... then it's IDK. $10k + 149?
Not trying to rain on your parade. $149 is very reasonable - if you already have CCR.
In context though - you get BOTH CCR 2.0 and RITR if you have to buy the playfield module. I don't think anybody's thinking there are going to be sales for an ENTIRE P3 for just RITR, even as cool as it is. I think ROCs also works with the CCR playfield.
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