You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider crazylevi.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
There will be no innovation.
Pinball is flippers batting a ball around a play area. If you are looking for innovation, find a new hobby.
What is it with pinball? People get into pinball - an 80 year old game that’s flippers batting a ball around - and decide it’s not exciting or innovative enough and insist manufacturers drastically “reimagine” a game that people buy based partly on nostalgia.
It’s like someone getting really into fishing but complaining that it isn’t boat racing.
Quoted from pookycade:I’ll put up another possible major innovation and this on might one day have legs. Playing mechanical games like pinball over the internet. Few stabs already at this commercially but too much latency for it to work reliably. If I could put all the pins at my arcade online and they were actually playable, we’d have something.
It’s a great idea except it’s impossible to do with zero lag, therefore it’s a non starter. Unless you can change the laws of
Time,
Space, and speed.
That WOULD be innovative !
Quoted from butta1681:I find it a little disheartening that a lot of newer pinball machines have heavy use of LCDs and such. I'm pretty new to the hobby, but the local arcade where I started had the relatively recent Stern Star Wars and the Data East one with a color DMD. I found myself drawn to the older unit because it felt so much more alive. There were lots of little details and moving parts, and the artwork looked like it was done by hand and not in photoshop like the Stern. The point is I was able to actually connect with the DE, while Stern just felt more distant. Whatever form pinball takes in the future, it has to have that real connection. I'm not against the use of new technology, quite the opposite actually, but it has to be integrated in a way that expands my connection with the game, not just a smartphone app and a big screen like everything else
New to the hobby eh?
Well here’s a little story; before LCD screens took over pinball, people wouldn’t shut
The fuck up about lcd screens. It became something they wanted more Than life itself. They were willing to die if it meant they could Just live a month in a world where pinball machines had lcd screens.
So...I’d say you are barking up the wrong tree in this one. They are here to stay. The people demanded the thrilling innovation of LCD screens and their wild fantasies were finally realized.
Somehow people still ain’t happy. Shocker, I know.
Anybody notice how “wi-fi” is the new LCD screen?
Can’t wait for the collective sigh when you all finally get it. Having your pinball machine connected to wi-fi isn’t going to change your pinball experience one iota.
And then it’s on to the next “grail innovation,” whatever that may be.
Quoted from Zitt:Can't agree less on that topic.
Have you taken part in a CCR or Heads up tourney over Wifi?
If not; then I don't think you know what you're talking about - an haven't actually tested the capability.
Novelty gimmick nobody will care about after a week.
Been covered.
Quoted from mrgone:Very little where it matters. On the playfield.
I’m an old school pinball player.
I give zero fucks about internet connectivity.
Give me magic on the playfield where it counts.
If you are an "old school pinball player" why are you holding out for magical innovations on a decidedly unmagical game?
Maybe it's time to play some Halo.
Quoted from MoSeS_1592:This may not fall into the category of "innovation" per se and I'm probably in the minority here, but I would like to see more new machines that have unique, unlicensed themes
You are in the extreme minority. People say they want unlicensed themes and they don't buy them...why do you think AP finally threw in the towel and scooped up that mega hot Hot Wheels license?
Also have no idea why you'd bring up unlicensed themes in an "innovation" thread. Unlicensed games date back 100 years.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:I do, and the answer is Yes.
Change the "Could" to "Will" and the answer is still Yes.
The day will come when the average pinball fanatic will use VR almost exclusively, and have any game they want with 100% realism, as well as many fantastically innovative games that would be impossible in the real world, and they will wonder why anyone would bother buying, collecting and maintaining whole rooms full of real machines.
Of course, everyone here now (2020) will still see the charm of real games, much as we do now for EMs, and competition might still work better on real games (though in many ways VR would be an improvement: no games breaking during play, no stuck balls mucking things up, no tilt-throughs, no intermittent switches, everyone could play at once, etc). But kids raised on perfect VR will think they are anachronistic.
I expect future Pinsiders will look back at this post as prophetic. I just hope I live to see it.
VR seems like a fad that is disappearing like a fart in the wind. I don't have a single friend who (At least admittedly) owns a VR headset and uses it with any kind of regularity. Aren't we all supposed to be living la vida Ready Player One by now?
It's great for freaking out your grandma for 10 minutes (at least according to the commercials I've seen) but seems like nobody gives a shit about VR as anything beyond a novelty? If I want to get a headache and stumble into things I'll just have a few drinks.
Quoted from sebgrinke:Someone mentioned playing real pinball over the internet. You can try it here: https://www.surrogate.tv/ I found it hard to hit the ball.
As a Console Game Designer (I work for Xbox) I see a ton of room for innovation in the software and WiFi connectivity:
- Download updates and new modes (the co-op in TMNT and the Jurassic Park board game modes sound like a good start)
- Open the software up so anyone can develop for it (there could be an emulator so developers don't have to buy the actual tables) - does P3 support this?
- Online tournaments with prizes (you could get around cheating with a camera and live streaming if needed)
- Compatibility with external speakers (Sonos etc.), smartphones (for settings, interactive audience controls etc.) and lighting systems (Philips Hue)
As an new home owner (Star Trek Premium - love it) and hobbyist I'd be interested in:
- Smaller games (imagine miniature versions of classic pinballs using a ball bearing instead of a regular size ball) (Do we really need a giant backglass at home? Couldn't the screen go in the playfield?)
- Hobbyist kits to build your own machines (e.g. Lego/Rowood style kits) or get them printed online (I'm convinced someone smarter than me could come up with a simpler manufacturing method using CnC printing and conductive ink for contacts.)
- Simplifying maintenance and improving durability (Why are there all these plastic parts that break so easily? Why is it so hard to diagnose and fix problems? Why is it so hard to swap parts out? Why is it all so expensive?)
My wife would like noise reduction.
None of the above are needed for arcade operators. I wonder what % of sales are to home users?
Ok so among this avalanche of bad ideas I see:
Open source code: great idea until 3 hours into it when someone damages their game by doing this. Not to mention almost every single new game is licensed and licensors may not be amenable to just opening up the code.
Redesign entire pinball machines to be half the size and use tiny ball bearings along with eliminating the backbox: this one is kind of low hanging fruit I’ll leave it to someone else to explain how this would bankrupt stern in a matter of months
Hobbyist kits: radio shack is out of business so who is the market for this exactly? I have trouble selling a game where a light bulb doesn’t work- your average new money collector would have zero interest in this.
Bluetooth speaker connectivity: ok I’ll admit this is a decent, simple idea that might not cost too much time or money to implement. Wow how did this get in here?
Simplify maintenance and make games more reliable, while replacing all the plastic parts with something more durable, while at the same time somehow making it all way cheaper despite the fact that you are now using more expensive materials: wow in 100 years of pinball design nobody has thought of this yet?!
I kinda ran out of steam I’ll just point.
I got no problem with brainstorming but most of these ideas are just terrible because they would never improve sales / profits enough to ever justify the expense and even liability danger they would incur. Pinball companies exist to make money and stay in business and this should always be considered when coming up with insane ideas like shrinking them down to liliputian size so you can use a tiny little pinball.
Quoted from the9gman:maybe but I would bet almost all of us have traveled hours to pick up a pin. You solve the biggest problem .....shipping and moving them and there may be something there. I would rather carry a play field than move a whole machine around. Plus the fact if you built it you don't need service ....you know how to fix it which brings in the rural market everything is plug an play just change a module.
NOBODY WANTS SWAPPABLE PLAYFIELDS
It's been tried many times and it never catches on because it's a stupid idea.
Home buyers don't want them. Storing extra populated playfields in boxes takes up almost as much room as a game itself. Nobody wants a game room full of boxed playfields and one functioning game. Nobody wants to spends time swapping out playfields when they are drinking with their buddies. Nobody wants to say "hey check out my cool game room!" only to show off a room to their buddies with one generic cabinet and a ton of musty playfields in boxes.
Ops don't want them. Ops need equipment that earns, not a bunch of playfields in storage. Ops need attractive equipment to lure in dollars, not generic cabinets.
Both ops and home buyers have been given NUMEROUS chances over the past 45 years to latch on to the brilliantly innovative idea of "swappable playfields." Conversion kits. Pin2k. Doctor Who and Congo in the 90s...the "playfield swap" idea has ALWAYS failed and it will always fail yet this failed concept is always a rock star in every "innovation" thread.
I will agree with you on one thing: transporting and moving pinball machines is a huge pain in the ass. The greatest "innovation" of the past 50 years regarding this is Stern taking 20-30 pounds out of their pinball machines over the last decade. How was this innovation received by your average Pinsider? By endless bitching and whining about "build quality" and "stern is cheaping out!!"
Innovation: it ain't for pinball.
Quoted from the9gman:except the guy who only has room for 4 machines and a big closet.
OK, so you are gonna waste tons of money and time on this concept for that one guy?
That's not a good way for a pinball company to stay in business.
Also, here's the fucking shocker, prepare to have your mind blown!: Playfields are ALREADY SWAPPABLE! Buy yourself a modern stern game, find yourself numerous modern stern populated playfields, and start swapping buddy! Stop waiting for some pinball company to do this for you and turn this dream into a reality.
Quoted from cait001:I'm thinking we should go back to roto-targets and vari-targets
Well the good news is that as long as Jpop is drawing a paycheck, these innovations are always a possibility.
Quoted from djd9617:Well, I get your point, but I think there's still a big difference between tweaking existing code, and writing your own from scratch. Open code would just make tinkering that much more accessible.
You realize "open code" is impossible in pinball right?
"tinkering" could cause your game to literally burn up and coils to melt and now Stern gets sued. It's the same reason you'll never see "open code" on a microwave oven. Or a car, for you cargument types.
And licensors would never allow Stern to not only allow but encourage hobbyists to muck with the code. Not sure if you noticed but Stern has now had to take action against pinbrowser sound mods become some idiot was selling a shitty and obnoxious bootleg Iron Maiden sound package out of a ratty tent at Replay FX. Right next to the Stern booth. Stern is LEGALLY OBLIGATED to prevent this kind of thing, or they could be financially liable.
Barking up the wrong tree on this!!!
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Wait wait.. what was Doctor Who swappable with?
Congo. They sold kits I believe. Weird right?
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Oh, baloney. Routines to energize solenoids, etc. could have failsafe timeouts and sanity checks to prevent overheating if the hobbyist programmer does something dumb.
See this is why I always offer redundancies in my arguments when I'm saying how stupid something is.
Ok, so let's say you are right and open code isn't an invitation into burning down the house. How about the licensing issue I presented? Seems to be insurmountable.
Quoted from Pinballlew:I just wonder really how much innovation is truly needed. I have even started a innovation thread in the past but honestly as I look at all the incredibly fun games the last 5-10 years have brought to this hobby, I really don’t understand what is needed or why the complaints exist. Another 5 or 10 years of great games is a exciting proposition to me. I am looking forward to see what is to come.
This guy gets it.
“Innovation” = fantasy.
Pinball = reality.
It’s pinball. It will always be pinball. If you don’t like pinball find another hobby.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I'm behind on the Avengers thing. I saw there's some sort of vertical lock thing, but other than that nothing stood out. What other new features are in that game?
The raising/lowering spinner? DOn't think I've seen that one before.
It really doesn't matter. Black Knight SOR had a cool interactive flail we've never seen on a pinball machine before, yet got zero credit for "innovation."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: when people here clamor for "innovation" they have no idea what the fuck they want and don't even know why they want "innovation" or what it is.
Quoted from TheLaw:Spinners are basically worthless point wise so one lifting up or dropping...what's the point
It's kind of a combo wonka lock hole mech/totan spinner thing. Looks pretty cool actually.
And the innovation is off the charts!
I think I just innovated my underwear!
Quoted from Pinballlew:The twitch pinball comment reminded me
https://www.surrogate.tv/game/batman66
You can play a pinball game on the web and it’s broadcasted on Twitch
It's unplayable. As far as I can tell remove wireless pinball is impossible.
It is innovative though!
Quoted from TheLaw:Sure but the spinner is just along for the ride. Looks cool indeed.
Apparently the spinner also detects clockwise/counter clockwise as well?
INNO FUCKING VATION BABY!!!
Quoted from TreyBo69:I'm actually interested in this. I know how the opto spinning platter works in Safecracker. I wonder how they tweaked it to tell direction. Maybe two optos right next to each other, so it can tell which one opens/closes before the other?
The way they designed the clear subway with the Flight 2000 mech is cool too. The subway tube seems built a bit different than the plain window on Met Prem
That's how they did it on the Tempest controller 40 years ago so probably same thing now!
Quoted from ThisNotes4U:Remember home video consoles? We purchased a lot from Roger and friends. Check it out.
Makes pinball seem much more awesome in comparison.
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider crazylevi.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-there-any-real-innovation-left-in-pinball-?tu=crazylevi and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
New York, NY