Quoted from CrazyLevi:My god these ideas are all horrible.
You people are embarrassing yourselves.
I'm thinking we should go back to roto-targets and vari-targets
(Topic ID: 275579)
New York, NY
Quoted from the9gman:except the guy who only has room for 4 machines and a big closet.
OK, so you are gonna waste tons of money and time on this concept for that one guy?
That's not a good way for a pinball company to stay in business.
Also, here's the fucking shocker, prepare to have your mind blown!: Playfields are ALREADY SWAPPABLE! Buy yourself a modern stern game, find yourself numerous modern stern populated playfields, and start swapping buddy! Stop waiting for some pinball company to do this for you and turn this dream into a reality.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:The tools are already there
I don't know about yo but I have looked into this and if it were easy everyone would be doing it , you look at these guys that built their own machines ......3000 hours of programming and coding ....yea the tools are out there but the average dude is not a technical engineer
Quoted from cait001:I'm thinking we should go back to roto-targets and vari-targets
Well the good news is that as long as Jpop is drawing a paycheck, these innovations are always a possibility.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The greatest "innovation" of the past 50 years regarding this is Stern taking 20-30 pounds out of their pinball machines over the last decade.
We moved a JP2 down my precarious stairs and it was noticeably better than moving a 90s Williams machine. On Williams machines to make the difficult turn easier I would often remove the playfield from the cab to make it more manageable.
hallelujah
Quoted from the9gman:I don't know about yo but I have looked into this and if it were easy everyone would be doing it , you look at these guys that built their own machines ......3000 hours of programming and coding ....yea the tools are out there but the average dude is not a technical engineer
Heh I definitely know. I built a Spaceballs pin from scratch.
And that's my point. The people who think open source means they'll be able to change the game around are wrong, because if they had the skill to do that they'd already be doing it with the tools available today.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Heh I definitely know. I built a Spaceballs pin from scratch.
And that's my point. The people who think open source means they'll be able to change the game around are wrong, because if they had the skill to do that they'd already be doing it with the tools available today.
Well, I get your point, but I think there's still a big difference between tweaking existing code, and writing your own from scratch. Open code would just make tinkering that much more accessible.
Quoted from djd9617:Well, I get your point, but I think there's still a big difference between tweaking existing code, and writing your own from scratch. Open code would just make tinkering that much more accessible.
You realize "open code" is impossible in pinball right?
"tinkering" could cause your game to literally burn up and coils to melt and now Stern gets sued. It's the same reason you'll never see "open code" on a microwave oven. Or a car, for you cargument types.
And licensors would never allow Stern to not only allow but encourage hobbyists to muck with the code. Not sure if you noticed but Stern has now had to take action against pinbrowser sound mods become some idiot was selling a shitty and obnoxious bootleg Iron Maiden sound package out of a ratty tent at Replay FX. Right next to the Stern booth. Stern is LEGALLY OBLIGATED to prevent this kind of thing, or they could be financially liable.
Barking up the wrong tree on this!!!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:NOBODY WANTS SWAPPABLE PLAYFIELDS
It's been tried many times and it never catches on because it's a stupid idea.
Home buyers don't want them. Storing extra populated playfields in boxes takes up almost as much room as a game itself. Nobody wants a game room full of boxed playfields and one functioning game. Nobody wants to spends time swapping out playfields when they are drinking with their buddies. Nobody wants to say "hey check out my cool game room!" only to show off a room to their buddies with one generic cabinet and a ton of musty playfields in boxes.
Ops don't want them. Ops need equipment that earns, not a bunch of playfields in storage. Ops need attractive equipment to lure in dollars, not generic cabinets.
Both ops and home buyers have been given NUMEROUS chances over the past 45 years to latch on to the brilliantly innovative idea of "swappable playfields." Conversion kits. Pin2k. Doctor Who and Congo in the 90s...the "playfield swap" idea has ALWAYS failed and it will always fail yet this failed concept is always a rock star in every "innovation" thread.
I will agree with you on one thing: transporting and moving pinball machines is a huge pain in the ass. The greatest "innovation" of the past 50 years regarding this is Stern taking 20-30 pounds out of their pinball machines over the last decade. How was this innovation received by your average Pinsider? By endless bitching and whining about "build quality" and "stern is cheaping out!!"
Innovation: it ain't for pinball.
Wait wait.. what was Doctor Who swappable with?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Wait wait.. what was Doctor Who swappable with?
Congo. They sold kits I believe. Weird right?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Congo. They sold kits I believe. Weird right?
Some of them were never used because the ops that tried them couldn't get them working. Summit Amusement in St. Paul tried and gave up on them years ago.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:Some of them were never used because the ops that tried them couldn't get them working. Summit Amusement in St. Paul tried and gave up on them years ago.
LTG : )
Does that mean there are a bunch of unused populated Congo playfields sitting in a wharehouse somewhere?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Congo. They sold kits I believe. Weird right?
Isn't congo a WPC95 game? So you basically just keep the cabinet?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Stop waiting for some pinball company to do this for you and turn this dream into a reality.
Not looking for some pinball manufacturer to do it. Looking into developing it myself at this point. I'm retired don't need to make a lot money at this point just to cover my living expenses ....don't need to spend a lot of money researching and making it happen just time. Just tinker with it while I'm making my first custom machine and if it becomes a viable item so be it, if not only education will be gained. I learned a long time ago that a good sustainable business is built out of the basement, no matter what ...never borrow money and grow slow. I've been a technician for over 40 years in this field and I usually over design shit so it doesn't break. Had a piece of test equipment that I made for the National Guard and they were still using after 25 years. The old Em's were built to last which is why a lot of them are still around. The key is not to use designer parts ....chips that will only be around for 5 years and then they stop making them. When a lot people that are really into this buy a machine they are into , how fun is the game, is the code good is the game challenging does it make you want to keep playing. So there for what its worth you have called me out .......Maybe I will see you at a pinball show someday and hopefully I will be ......on the other side of the counter.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Isn't congo a WPC95 game? So you basically just keep the cabinet?
Come to think of it there was someone selling a Whitestar pin with 2 playfields and chips a while back. I think it came with World Poker Tour and Wheel of Fortune somehow.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You realize "open code" is impossible in pinball right?
Oh definitely. Well, implausible at worst, but yes, I have no dilusions that any major company would open their code. I don't think its out of the realm of possability for unlicensed games to be open, but as you mention, the company selling them would need some legal protection. Basically a "No refunds, no warranty, plug this game in at your own risk" type thing.
Oh, baloney. Routines to energize solenoids, etc. could have failsafe timeouts and sanity checks to prevent overheating if the hobbyist programmer does something dumb.
It's not like they'd give you machine code level access.
I'd be more worried about smartasses putting in secret scoring exploits and trying to pass the code off as standard, as a way to cheat. It's not hard to restore a known checksum.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Oh, baloney. Routines to energize solenoids, etc. could have failsafe timeouts and sanity checks to prevent overheating if the hobbyist programmer does something dumb.
See this is why I always offer redundancies in my arguments when I'm saying how stupid something is.
Ok, so let's say you are right and open code isn't an invitation into burning down the house. How about the licensing issue I presented? Seems to be insurmountable.
There’s really no incentive for a company like stern to do this .. is it going to sell more units because a hobbyist can tinker with some code aspects or rules? Maybe a couple? I would say that right now P3 has the best approach to this - being that you can scratch code a module. This is awesome, but again, the # of people that would do this is limited and really at zero benefit to stern or whatever company offered it other than p3 and the way it creates value for them
Quoted from CrazyLevi:See this is why I always offer redundancies in my arguments when I'm saying how stupid something is.
Ok, so let's say you are right and open code isn't an invitation into burning down the house. How about the licensing issue I presented? Seems to be insurmountable.
I guess you'd have to disallow using anything but the IP already in the game somehow. Even then I suppose IP holders want to sign off on finished product. And how could you keep someone from distributing their hacked version? Yeah, probably unworkable for standard licensed games.
But I'd be into a roll-your-own kit for custom builds and rethemes!
I just wonder really how much innovation is truly needed. I have even started a innovation thread in the past but honestly as I look at all the incredibly fun games the last 5-10 years have brought to this hobby, I really don’t understand what is needed or why the complaints exist. Another 5 or 10 years of great games is a exciting proposition to me. I am looking forward to see what is to come.
Quoted from Pinballlew:I just wonder really how much innovation is truly needed. I have even started a innovation thread in the past but honestly as I look at all the incredibly fun games the last 5-10 years have brought to this hobby, I really don’t understand what is needed or why the complaints exist. Another 5 or 10 years of great games is a exciting proposition to me. I am looking forward to see what is to come.
This guy gets it.
“Innovation” = fantasy.
Pinball = reality.
It’s pinball. It will always be pinball. If you don’t like pinball find another hobby.
Sometimes it's fun to watch the pattern of off topics this thread gets. Can we get back to floating balls and RFID chips, 3-D glasses, foot pedals, etc
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Oh, baloney. Routines to energize solenoids, etc. could have failsafe timeouts and sanity checks to prevent overheating if the hobbyist programmer does something dumb.
So... this isn't real, true opensource.
Because you'd have to "close source" the "critical functionality"... so that customers can't defeat the "failsafe".... which would lead to questions of it's open source nature.
Simply put; 99% of the titles out there are *LICENSED* properties. They will never-ever be open sourced. Give that up now.
Even the 1% which aren't licensed; but original themes wouldn't be open sourced either because for all the reasons Levi gave. Support nightmare. More importantly; what vendor wants to give a competitor the opportunity to "knock off" a pin by providing the source for free?
The only way this works is for YOU to use something like Multimorphic's dev kit to develop your own pin... figure out how to have it made; then opensource the pin yourself. I don't see anyone in their right mind going thru all the work to develop full game; only to "give it away".
Some of Multimorphic's customers are developing their own games... but usually as software-only updates to existing PFs. Those are the only ones who may release their game as a binary- I don't think any have agreed to opensource anything.
Quoted from ThisNotes4U:I want to see what Gerry has cooking with Twitch????
That's stupid. Nobody will want that. Viewer interaction isn't pinball! Leave well enough alone.
Or... maybe this will be really awesome and give people another (optional) way they can enjoy the pinball experience. I'm excited to see how people react to the interactions in CCR and how these features will evolve over time. If you have suggestions for cool ways to have viewers interact with gameplay, feel free to send them. We're all about listening to feedback and tweaking features to make pinball playing experiences more fun. Features like viewer interactions need to be carefully thought out to make sure they don't detract from the experience, but when done well, they can be game-changing!
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Utrecht
Am I the only one thinking the new Avengers Infinity Quest pinball has some rather innovative features? Or at least features that come from something we've seen before, but taken a step further. Haven't seen any gameplay yet, so can't judge any code yet, but in terms of hardware Keith seems to be coming up with fresh ideas.
Quoted from gstellenberg:That's stupid. Nobody will want that. Viewer interaction isn't pinball! Leave well enough alone.
Or... maybe this will be really awesome and give people another (optional) way they can enjoy the pinball experience. I'm excited to see how people react to the interactions in CCR and how these features will evolve over time. If you have suggestions for cool ways to have viewers interact with gameplay, feel free to send them. We're all about listening to feedback and tweaking features to make pinball playing experiences more fun. Features like viewer interactions need to be carefully thought out to make sure they don't detract from the experience, but when done well, they can be game-changing!
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
LOL! I want to know how I can crash other cars in CCR via twitch!
Quoted from unigroove:Am I the only one thinking the new Avengers Infinity Quest pinball has some rather innovative features? Or at least features that come from something we've seen before, but taken a step further. Haven't seen any gameplay yet, so can't judge any code yet, but in terms of hardware Keith seems to be coming up with fresh ideas.
I'm behind on the Avengers thing. I saw there's some sort of vertical lock thing, but other than that nothing stood out. What other new features are in that game?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I'm behind on the Avengers thing. I saw there's some sort of vertical lock thing, but other than that nothing stood out. What other new features are in that game?
The raising/lowering spinner? DOn't think I've seen that one before.
It really doesn't matter. Black Knight SOR had a cool interactive flail we've never seen on a pinball machine before, yet got zero credit for "innovation."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: when people here clamor for "innovation" they have no idea what the fuck they want and don't even know why they want "innovation" or what it is.
Quoted from TheLaw:Spinners are basically worthless point wise so one lifting up or dropping...what's the point
It's kind of a combo wonka lock hole mech/totan spinner thing. Looks pretty cool actually.
And the innovation is off the charts!
I think I just innovated my underwear!
The twitch pinball comment reminded me
https://www.surrogate.tv/game/batman66
You can play a pinball game on the web and it’s broadcasted on Twitch
Quoted from Pinballlew:The twitch pinball comment reminded me
https://www.surrogate.tv/game/batman66
You can play a pinball game on the web and it’s broadcasted on Twitch
It's unplayable. As far as I can tell remove wireless pinball is impossible.
It is innovative though!
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:LOL! I want to know how I can crash other cars in CCR via twitch!
"emp:2"
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from TheLaw:Sure but the spinner is just along for the ride. Looks cool indeed.
Apparently the spinner also detects clockwise/counter clockwise as well?
INNO FUCKING VATION BABY!!!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Apparently the spinner also detects clockwise/counter clockwise as well?
INNO FUCKING VATION BABY!!!
I'm actually interested in this. I know how the opto spinning platter works in Safecracker. I wonder how they tweaked it to tell direction. Maybe two optos right next to each other, so it can tell which one opens/closes before the other?
The way they designed the clear subway with the Flight 2000 mech is cool too. The subway tube seems built a bit different than the plain window on Met Prem
Quoted from gstellenberg:"emp:2"
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
That is awesome, I'm going to go read the docs.. haha
Quoted from TreyBo69:I'm actually interested in this. I know how the opto spinning platter works in Safecracker. I wonder how they tweaked it to tell direction. Maybe two optos right next to each other, so it can tell which one opens/closes before the other?
The way they designed the clear subway with the Flight 2000 mech is cool too. The subway tube seems built a bit different than the plain window on Met Prem
That's how they did it on the Tempest controller 40 years ago so probably same thing now!
Quoted from ThisNotes4U:Remember home video consoles? We purchased a lot from Roger and friends. Check it out.
Makes pinball seem much more awesome in comparison.
Quoted from sebgrinke:I would happily pay $20 for new game modes to download on an existing Stern. Am I the only one? (There probably isn't a big enough market to justify the development cost though.)
How about $700 for a cheap plastic topper and a game mode?
Quoted from sebgrinke:How about a device that stops the balls falling out if you lift the playfield with them still in the trough?
Seriously! Just buy a JJP game, or install the Pin2K bracket. But Stern doesn’t have one ! What!?
Quoted from sebgrinke:How about a device that stops the balls falling out if you lift the playfield with them still in the trough?
Been invented but that costs from their bottom line..
Piece of foam stuffed in the hole before lifting solves the problem though.. I always gave a couple floating around the pin room
Quoted from sebgrinke:How about a device that stops the balls falling out if you lift the playfield with them still in the trough?
ya mean this?
https://www.pinballlife.com/passive-ball-stop.html
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