Gerry. Just for fun, if Harry Potter costs 1mm bucks to license and you get all the assets. What would P3 have to cost to cover it if you were a first time buyer or a person just needing the Harry Potter kit?

Creativity is more parts, means higher BOM.
Its easy to create a BTTF with a "flying" dolorian.
Or a JAWS that jumps out of the water and hit the boat and release the balls for multibal but that cost a lot, more than the dino in stern JP (witch i love by the way) . So money is the problem, not the creativity from the designers.

excellent point. the only moves stern designers can make when gary drops the BOM on them are dance moves.

If somebody reading this has the means and interest to help finance such a project with the goal of a win-win outcome, please contact me. I'd be happy to discuss all that goes into the financial planning and work through the numbers. I couldn't just do a quick back-of-envelope estimate for product pricing without considering the whole picture.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Here is some innovation in pinball: a company representative that understands pinside and doesn't fall into it's traps!

Well said cait. A company that jumps into this shark tank better have a good product. That personal touch is HUGE in the business world, people want a one-on-one with customer service, period. I can understand why a company representative would be reluctant to engage here at pinside. " I bought a Star Wars home model that does not boot up, who here can help?" VS "Hey Gerry, I lost that email on update, can you resend it"

I can't believe P3 hasn't taken off more. I almost bought in on Alien years ago because of the cool game and promise of one cabinet for multiple games. They went bust, but I see P3 is doing something similar, which I'm highly interesed in. The problem for me is Heighway fraudelenatly had a much lower buy in and I can't afford the initial P3 cabinet. Really wish I can find one in the wild though.

Gerry is either unusually nice or he has a very good poker face, I can't work out which it is

Both. It's both.
I've spent many a pinball show with this Gerry joker... he really is nice. And he also has good poker face. He's a good engineer too. Smarter than me.

Fair enough.

I guess overall, what I'm saying is that if P3 technology could ever evolve into a fully populated playfield with the video panel underlay for both fixed and dynamic graphics, along with insert lighting, etc. then I think it would be a significantly more immersive experience and have broader appeal. I also realize that this may not be the vision of the creators, and even if it is then it will still take time to get there.

I'm not being critical of P3 at all (who am I to do so?), just trying to express why thus far it hasn't captured my desires to own one (which may very well change in the future). I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the innovation and engineering that P3 is bringing to pinball. I realize that things like this have to evolve, take a tremendous amount of resources, and required people that are "all in" to make it happen.

Thank you for this. Like most companies, we have a really supportive customer base and also a bunch of people who seem to take pride in insulting us and minimizing our efforts at every turn. I appreciate the positivity and constructive opinions.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

I’d love to see this too - I just randomly happened to compare the Heist playfield to a recent Stern game (Not calling out Stern, just happened to be what I was looking at), and I was surprised to see that the P3 slot wall (whats the proper term?) was closer to the player than almost all of the Stern playfield stuff. So it’s getting close!

This may not fall into the category of "innovation" per se and I'm probably in the minority here, but I would like to see more new machines that have unique, unlicensed themes (or that aren't remakes of vintage tables). Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why licensed-theme games exist from both a business and consumer standpoint and there are many licensed-theme tables that literally made my jaw drop upon realization they were in production. That being said I would still like to see more unique titles (kudos to Multimorphic in this department). Or maybe I'm just getting old and longing for that 80's nostalgia when game themes were entirely original (e.g. Williams system 6-11, bally 6803 era) . My understanding of the industry is limited but I would imagine production would be cheaper not having to pay an exorbitant licensing fee to develop a new licensed table.

Hypothetically if an absolutely phenomenal table was released with great sound, art, playfield, game play, complexity, etc, but didn't have a licensed theme to 'hook' a small demographic of enthusiasts, do you think it would negatively impact sales more than a licensing fee would? For example would sales of a table like TNA have dramatically increased if it was themed after some just-released cookie cutter hollywood scifi movie that will be lost in the dustbin of history in the next 2 years?

Anyone can consider my opinions or not in their decision making, but this is one of those things that everyone must experience for themselves. Therefore, I highly encourage everyone to make it a point to actually play a P3 pin or two. It is quite something to see in person, presents a new experience, and I'm sure it will appeal to a multitude of players. I always make it a point to spend time in the Multimorphic booth at TPF to play several games and to see what is new each year.

Just because I'm not at the point yet where I'm ready to purchase one to put into my limited collection (which can be said about several contemporary pins), doesn't mean that others wouldn't be extremely satisfied to own one.

I'm with you on this. There are several of us who have games like AFM & MM on the top of their rankings for a reason. If you think about it, there have been several non-licensed games recently (e.g. TNA, Octoberfest, Houdini, Dialed In, Black Knight (albeit a sequel), etc.) However, given the marketplace, I understand that licensed titles come with a built-in fan base which probably provides the manufacturers with a little more security.

Breaking away from the Italian Bottom would be a huge breath of fresh air just once in a while. JJPPOTC did it with the inverted inlane/outlane, and Deniesi did it with the pop in place of the slingshot. How about a game with no inlane on one side, if not both, a la Space Station? Something to break the monotony...

I do, and the answer is Yes.

Change the "Could" to "Will" and the answer is still Yes.

The day will come when the average pinball fanatic will use VR almost exclusively, and have any game they want with 100% realism, as well as many fantastically innovative games that would be impossible in the real world, and they will wonder why anyone would bother buying, collecting and maintaining whole rooms full of real machines.

Of course, everyone here now (2020) will still see the charm of real games, much as we do now for EMs, and competition might still work better on real games (though in many ways VR would be an improvement: no games breaking during play, no stuck balls mucking things up, no tilt-throughs, no intermittent switches, everyone could play at once, etc). But kids raised on perfect VR will think they are anachronistic.

I expect future Pinsiders will look back at this post as prophetic. I just hope I live to see it.

I think one facet of attaining a license many people are overlooking is that, especially with LCDs being in most new games, access to the licenced media saves a huge amount of time/money/effort that would go into creating media to fill up that screen. I mean, R&M spends most of its time looping clips from the TV show, granted, they still put in tons of effort to create new video and callouts too. But if they were doing an unlicensed spinoff, an animator would have had to been paid to create all that media from scratch. Whether that alone offsets the cost of the license, I'm not sure, but it is a factor.

MM is still #1
Is a testimony that pinball reached it's plateau in 1997, despite many innovative breakthroughs since .
None have proven Innovation = satisfaction or desire. This raises the question: Whats the point?

You are in the extreme minority. People say they want unlicensed themes and they don't buy them...why do you think AP finally threw in the towel and scooped up that mega hot Hot Wheels license?

Also have no idea why you'd bring up unlicensed themes in an "innovation" thread. Unlicensed games date back 100 years.

VR seems like a fad that is disappearing like a fart in the wind. I don't have a single friend who (At least admittedly) owns a VR headset and uses it with any kind of regularity. Aren't we all supposed to be living la vida Ready Player One by now?

It's great for freaking out your grandma for 10 minutes (at least according to the commercials I've seen) but seems like nobody gives a shit about VR as anything beyond a novelty? If I want to get a headache and stumble into things I'll just have a few drinks.

I wouldn't count it out just yet. If the ps5 with am actual wireless headset had make a move it MIGHT be big. Right now wires is a big fuckkng headache

The issue you have with that statement is the use of "pinball fanatic" (maybe enthusiast?). You will find very few "fanatics" can even stand virtual pinball and the like. VR is not a replacement for reality, and never will be. Tricking your brain for a moment whether it's playing pinball, driving a hyper car, fighting, or traveling to an exotic destination will never substitute for reality. The main issue is that from my perspective the sense that humans rely upon most for understanding their surroundings and conveying emotion is touch, and pinball is a lot more than just pushing binary buttons.

Thanks, but I'm not as smart as you... look what I do for a "living". I've also seen you be nice a couple of times too!

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

I’m curious if this does come to pass. IMO If a pinball game catches on, it will be a game where the player IS the pinball. Playing a table with one of those headsets is not (yet at least) very interesting. The tactile feedback which is critical to the “pinball experience” isn’t there yet. We have those gloves that can put pressure on your hands, but it’s not at all similar to feeling your whole body shake with a shaker, or even the smaller motions when you can feel pops going, a VUK, etc.

Maybe this been discussed, does P3 have PIP capabilities? I.E. small screen insert to watch the football game or better yet some lame-ass zoom meeting.

Didn't know one could see farts, unless one is using an infrared camera. But we're talking about a different technology.

Also didn't know that VR tech had peaked yet. Well, of course it hasn't! Headsets will get smaller, lighter, higher res, eventually more like normal eyeglasses, tuned optically for one's face and eye measurements to minimize discomfort. Perhaps VR will be wired right into one's brain someday; Elon Musk just demoed Neuralink yesterday and that was just a baby step, but already we see that brain interfacing is doable and safe.

The one thing I'm waiting for is OLED playfields where the graphics
change depending on mode. This will add another dimension to game
play. And its possible with the technology we have today.
Steve

Seriously. That’s a P3. I don’t think the screens are OLED but you’re not staring at the playfield that closely anyway

Someone mentioned playing real pinball over the internet. You can try it here: https://www.surrogate.tv/ I found it hard to hit the ball.

As a Console Game Designer (I work for Xbox) I see a ton of room for innovation in the software and WiFi connectivity:
- Download updates and new modes (the co-op in TMNT and the Jurassic Park board game modes sound like a good start)
- Open the software up so anyone can develop for it (there could be an emulator so developers don't have to buy the actual tables) - does P3 support this?
- Online tournaments with prizes (you could get around cheating with a camera and live streaming if needed)
- Compatibility with external speakers (Sonos etc.), smartphones (for settings, interactive audience controls etc.) and lighting systems (Philips Hue)

As an new home owner (Star Trek Premium - love it) and hobbyist I'd be interested in:
- Smaller games (imagine miniature versions of classic pinballs using a ball bearing instead of a regular size ball) (Do we really need a giant backglass at home? Couldn't the screen go in the playfield?)
- Hobbyist kits to build your own machines (e.g. Lego/Rowood style kits) or get them printed online (I'm convinced someone smarter than me could come up with a simpler manufacturing method using CnC printing and conductive ink for contacts.)
- Simplifying maintenance and improving durability (Why are there all these plastic parts that break so easily? Why is it so hard to diagnose and fix problems? Why is it so hard to swap parts out? Why is it all so expensive?)

My wife would like noise reduction.

None of the above are needed for arcade operators. I wonder what % of sales are to home users?

Yes.

Ok so among this avalanche of bad ideas I see:

Open source code: great idea until 3 hours into it when someone damages their game by doing this. Not to mention almost every single new game is licensed and licensors may not be amenable to just opening up the code.

Redesign entire pinball machines to be half the size and use tiny ball bearings along with eliminating the backbox: this one is kind of low hanging fruit I’ll leave it to someone else to explain how this would bankrupt stern in a matter of months

Hobbyist kits: radio shack is out of business so who is the market for this exactly? I have trouble selling a game where a light bulb doesn’t work- your average new money collector would have zero interest in this.

Bluetooth speaker connectivity: ok I’ll admit this is a decent, simple idea that might not cost too much time or money to implement. Wow how did this get in here?

Simplify maintenance and make games more reliable, while replacing all the plastic parts with something more durable, while at the same time somehow making it all way cheaper despite the fact that you are now using more expensive materials: wow in 100 years of pinball design nobody has thought of this yet?!

I kinda ran out of steam I’ll just point.

I got no problem with brainstorming but most of these ideas are just terrible because they would never improve sales / profits enough to ever justify the expense and even liability danger they would incur. Pinball companies exist to make money and stay in business and this should always be considered when coming up with insane ideas like shrinking them down to liliputian size so you can use a tiny little pinball.

lol thanks for the feedback

If you want to play tiny pinball, buy a family guy pin. After a bit you will see why tiny pinball didn’t take off.

But if your into the kit idea, I think you should homebrew a pin in between tiny ball bearing size and regular pinball for fun! Maybe you could work the Bluetooth speakers in too! Then bring it to the NW show .. assuming it goes thru in 2021..

this hobby is 90 years old, we're jaded, crusty, and wise.

so what we have here is a rubik's cube or an airplane before anyone knew how to fly. Can't be small, cant be big, no video screen etc, etc etc
Arcades are being toasted because of covid so the only place you will find pinball in the future is Pizza joints and Beer Bars and the homes of people who love it. How bout if someone could just make a game that everyone could afford. You can buy a John Deere lawn tractor with more moving parts then a pinball machine for 1500 to 6000 bucks and it will last you at least 10 years and for the most part require minor repairs, had mine since 2004. You would think any old XT computer or Raspberry pi 4 would have the power to run a machine and they are cheap. Do away with the stupid mini driver boards in the machine and just use one big one, populated with industrial 2N3055 transistors so it blows the fuse rather then smoke check itself. Coin doors are not necessary for home use. With these days of automation you would think someone could build a nice looking Machine that is fun and works better with less repair for 3 or 4 thousand bucks. That would be true innovation and bring more people into the hobby

I think Punny Factory made a simple and durable pin, but no more.

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2019/12/16/punny-factory/

Could have an option to leave out the expensive mechs behind the coin door to save cost. Removing the hole for a door would exclude the operator market entirely; probably not a great move, even if that market has diminished. And I think a well maintained machine will last beyond 10 years easily. It might seem counterintuitive, but using several smaller boards instead of one monolithic board may actually lower the cost of the machine, make repairs easier, and make operation more reliable. Not that that's always the case, but I have to imagine that it's already done this way because it is in fact cheaper in the long run. In any case, stern has their "slightly more affordable" home pins. You should also be able to find used pins, granted, a couple years old, in about the same price range as that tractor. I think a big factor in cost is just man hours to build the things. Id be interested in looking at the # of employees for a given company, and compare that with the number of units they ship per day on avg.

I wonder if there’s any money in a DIY market? You buy a kit and put it together yourself. Think of the customer service support nightmare!!

I’m fairly sure the way Stern is doing it now is probably already the cheapest way to do components. They might be able to save in labor cost if they moved to some sort of monolithic board, or set of boards. Every game would use the exact same Insert board. Installed In the same spot in every game. LEDs everywhere! And of course you would need different layouts, so many of the LEDs Would not be used, but you would save immeasurably by reducing the labor factor.

I see the light. Most of the new makers have a problem with production and assembly and then shipping. Takes them forever to get off the ground. What if this were to go the way of Kit Planes ....if you had a company that supplied the play field plus parts, electronics , monitor and plug and play harness it would be much easier to field new games. shipping would definitely be cheaper. let the user make the cabinet or use an existing one and supply plans to make the cabinet universal so play fields could be swapped out and software could be loaded in. How many of us would go that route? I know your already saying P3 already does this and yea I think they are neat but I don't need a monitor under my play field and I could just see my grandfather getting up out of his grave and stating .....you spent 12,000 on a pinball machine "What are you stupid? If you want to spend that kind of money to each his own but I just can't pull that trigger. With this system you could get the price to 3 to four gran and get 4 machines for the price of one

My god these ideas are all horrible.

You people are embarrassing yourselves.

I don’t quite understand your complaint about P3 here - are you saying that if they just created a static playfield image with corresponding inserts, light show, etc, but not such an active interface - that you would go for it? In other words, make it a bit more like traditional pinball?

maybe but I would bet almost all of us have traveled hours to pick up a pin. You solve the biggest problem .....shipping and moving them and there may be something there. I would rather carry a play field than move a whole machine around. Plus the fact if you built it you don't need service ....you know how to fix it which brings in the rural market everything is plug an play just change a module.

I don't think pinball needs to be innovative (and besides Multimorphic we'll see what Deeproot will have to offer) but what you describe is more the lackluster slap of paint that's changing with every license.

Take a game like Championship Pub. It has lots of toys, the main mech being a completely interactive Boxer, only built for this game and never again used.
It's unique, stands out, and is 100% cohesive and built for the theme. - And again it had lots of others.

Theme integration is not only the art, sound and code, it's the toys as well.
So how "unique" is (since you mentioned TMNT) a diverter - that has a toy stuck on it? Or a Ball Lock, but this time not as an uppost but making the Turtle Bus door open and close? - It's ok I guess but nothing that really brings the license to live, or is unique to the game.
How many People said beforehand: Man a glider on a diverter would be bad ass!?
(Most postings I recall asked for a Subway...)

So yes, I think you can still find innovation. AP does an outstanding Job with the mechs an theme integration with Houdini.
Sterns Elvira really has a no cost cutting Williams vibe to it as well.
JJP games are usually way different from another, whereas I thought Willy Wonka played it safe.
And yes even regular Sterns can have innovation, it's just not as packed as in the Williams days; like the Black Knight Toy in SoR, with it's flail and the moving shield/ target backkicker.

that's exactly what I am saying, Look I'm 60 a lot of the guys that are picking this hobby up right now are my age. They are retiring and they loved the game back in the 70's ....we never had so many bells and whistles and we still loved the game. Would be awesome to have a play field and new software shipped right to your door and not break your back getting it down stairs. Might only be a niche market but probably a worth while one.

NOBODY WANTS SWAPPABLE PLAYFIELDS

It's been tried many times and it never catches on because it's a stupid idea.

Home buyers don't want them. Storing extra populated playfields in boxes takes up almost as much room as a game itself. Nobody wants a game room full of boxed playfields and one functioning game. Nobody wants to spends time swapping out playfields when they are drinking with their buddies. Nobody wants to say "hey check out my cool game room!" only to show off a room to their buddies with one generic cabinet and a ton of musty playfields in boxes.

Ops don't want them. Ops need equipment that earns, not a bunch of playfields in storage. Ops need attractive equipment to lure in dollars, not generic cabinets.

Both ops and home buyers have been given NUMEROUS chances over the past 45 years to latch on to the brilliantly innovative idea of "swappable playfields." Conversion kits. Pin2k. Doctor Who and Congo in the 90s...the "playfield swap" idea has ALWAYS failed and it will always fail yet this failed concept is always a rock star in every "innovation" thread.

I will agree with you on one thing: transporting and moving pinball machines is a huge pain in the ass. The greatest "innovation" of the past 50 years regarding this is Stern taking 20-30 pounds out of their pinball machines over the last decade. How was this innovation received by your average Pinsider? By endless bitching and whining about "build quality" and "stern is cheaping out!!"

Innovation: it ain't for pinball.

I'm not even religious and after each of Levi's posts in this thread I find myself yelling "AMEN".

Open source for pinball is the biggest laugh. If you were technical enough to take advantage of it, you'd already be doing it. The tools are already there. MPF interfaces to Spike/Spike2. Almost all of the software Stern uses is open source. Open a terminal on a game and poke around.

except the guy who only has room for 4 machines and a big closet. The one thing I am not talking about is putting them out on route or making money with them, those days are numbered for the industry and those types of arcades will be far and few between. We were never in this time before so something that may have failed in the past may be perfectly viable now

tbh I'm not sure why that hasn't been an option for a while. Just a flat door at the front where you could install a proper door if need-be, but no reason to actually include the coin mechs and coin box for the home environment

Yep....that's one guy