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(Topic ID: 275579)

Is there any real innovation left in pinball ?


By pookycade

3 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 318 posts
  • 95 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 87 days ago by Zitt
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Is pinball still innovative ”

    • Hell yes, you just aren’t paying attention to all the new things going on 104 votes
      70%
    • Meh, not really, but still luv me some TMNT 45 votes
      30%

    (149 votes)

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    There are 318 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 7.
    #101 3 months ago

    So what about a game design that the ramp entrances move on the playfield and change the shot? And when they do move it adds a lane to different scoring options on the actual playfield?

    #102 3 months ago
    Quoted from the9gman:

    so take the lower 6 targets on a raven and figure out how to put vari-targets in their place. that would be an engineering feat of mind boggling proportion.

    try applying a principle of verticality.

    #103 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    It’s a great idea except it’s impossible to do with zero lag, therefore it’s a non starter. Unless you can change the laws of
    Time,
    Space, and speed.
    That WOULD be innovative !

    I’m not so sure actually - I’ve been jamming with my band for a few months in real time - WITH video, and it’s within 20ms lag. The software is called “JamKazam” and is FREE (although we support them via donations since we use it regularly)

    20ms is unbelievably good. I think the technology is there, but not in mass use. We have relatively fast connections but the game changer has been the intelligent packet prioritisation software. I’m not kidding, we are jamming as if we’re in the same room, it’s awesome.

    #104 3 months ago
    Quoted from Apinplayer:

    So what about a game design that the ramp entrances move on the playfield and change the shot? And when they do move it adds a lane to different scoring options on the actual playfield?

    Been done before, ramps that raise and lower to access either another target or passage. Gottlieb and a few Williams if I recall correct off the top of my head. Stranger Things to access the boss monster too.

    #105 3 months ago

    The problem isn't that there isn't innovation. The problem is that certain things just do not change.

    Let's take 90's Williams. Williams came up with some ingenious toys for their games. They stopped playing with layouts. Inlanes/Outlane designs stay fairly consistent. Flipper position might move a little, but its always a two flipper layout at the bottom of the playfield. They did away with large upper playfields except Popeye. Rulesets don't change much. You have mode based and you have multiball centric. They never dip their toes into linear, although seeing how capcom did it is doubtful everyone at williams was against it. Display position became locked in place as well as display type. They did try with CV, and there is the prototype racing game that would have rotated the orientation, but they could have put it smack in the middle of the playfield like heighway back in the day. It could have been integrated into the apron.

    The problem is this starts to all feel the same.

    Moving it forward to today, manufacturers are trying to throw a bit of change in, but compare it to the 80's and earlier. No one is trying to do anything just off the rails.

    #106 3 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Been done before, ramps that raise and lower to access either another target or passage. Gottlieb and a few Williams if I recall correct off the top of my head. Stranger Things to access the boss monster too.

    What I was implying was a left to right movement like Dracula on Monster Bash. Make the geometry so your able to hit the ramp from either flipper as it moves or from it static points. Solid ramp with a flexible piece to connect it to the wire form.

    #107 3 months ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    try applying a principle of verticality

    that's a really interesting idea . if you took some non conductive oil in a plastic tube, put food coloring in it and back lit it . and made the mechanism serve as a hydraulic brake it would be an interesting visual effect and a solution to the problem

    #109 3 months ago

    Personally i think there should be some serious discussion amongst manufacturers about making pins MORE simple. Like system 11s.

    Less costs. More simple rules. Easier to purchase.

    Make pins great again!

    #110 3 months ago
    Quoted from Blackbeard:

    Personally i think there should be some serious discussion amongst manufacturers about making pins MORE simple. Like system 11s.

    Less costs. More simple rules. Easier to purchase.

    Stern's home edition pins? Excepting, of course, that they waste great themes(I'm looking at you, Incendium) on a generic PF.

    #111 3 months ago

    I would like to be able to adjust the width of ramp entrance like I can adjust the size of the outlane by moving the post up and down.
    That way you could set up games for different skill levels. Some of my friends that don't play pinball much are really struggling to like IMDN becasue they never seem to be able to hit the ramps. If that somehow could be adjusted I am sure they would have more fun.

    #112 3 months ago

    pinball in 2020 makes the peaks of the 1990s machines seem so old and limited in comparison.
    RGB lighting, LCD screens, and a focus on deep rulesets has sparked a lot of pinball joy.

    THAT SAID,
    I don't really know where pinball will go forward from here. The current wave of excellent machines will probably start feeling stale after 5 more years of releases like JP, DP, Met, JJPPotC, and TMNT. (I'm assuming)

    P3 is definitely the most notable innovation and is brimming with future potential, Heist being their first truly killer game.

    But thinking of more traditional platforms like Stern, I'm not sure what might be the next gamechangers there.
    I guess embedded internet connectivity and the innovations that can spur?

    I really like the first post's mention of slot machines, where yeah it's basically the same thing over and over with just themes swapped in and a few aspects changed around.
    You see this in Japan with the pachinko and pachislo industry as well.
    With the gambling industry, if it's not broke you don't fix it, so those mainstays will just keep getting churned out.
    (Japan has lots of innovation when it comes to gambling though, like check out there immersive horse track machines! https://kotaku.com/awkward-adventures-in-segas-digital-horse-racing-game-1798615738 )

    Will pinball get to a point where the inherent layouts are absolutely exhausted? That feels like a question they were also asking back in the 1960s.
    It feels like a question that Pinball 2000 and P3 took the most seriously.
    But I'm not sure if it's an existential threat to the hobby itself, at least for the next decade.

    #113 3 months ago
    Quoted from ThatOneDude:

    Stern's home edition pins? Excepting, of course, that they waste great themes(I'm looking at you, Incendium) on a generic PF.

    Home edition pins have a lot of issues. They tend to cheap out on the cabinet and hardware. It feels cheap. It looks cheap. They have used bespoke boardsets at times making repair more difficult.

    I don't see a system 11 style game selling well. You could make it for less than a stern pro, but probably not enough to justify for most.

    #114 3 months ago
    Quoted from Kkoss24:

    [quoted image]

    this rules and also A+ for theme integration there

    #115 3 months ago

    Always wondered if the manufacturers could combine a traditional horizontal playfield layout, with a vPinball vertical playfield (think Pacinko meets vPin) on the backglass. In play, the ball would bounce around the horizontal playfield normally, but at some point would enter an 'exit' ramp perhaps near the right side back of the playfield, and instantly be transformed to a vPinball screen on the backglass, with virtual flippers and everything else virtualized, and when the ball drained on the backglass virtual playfield, the actual ball would return to the REAL playfield through some entry ramp near where it left the playfield originally. Obvious the backglass would need to become a full sized HD screen that fits the entire backglass, and when the virtual playfield was no longer needed, the screen would revert to a traditional look of a backglass, essentially a canvas for a CGI backglass, tjemed graphics, scoring, themed video, etc (mimicking a modern backglass).

    #116 3 months ago
    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    Always wondered if the manufacturers could combine a traditional horizontal playfield layout, with a vPinball vertical playfield (think Pacinko meets vPin) on the backglass.

    I'm sure they could...would it be popular? The issue might be trying to find people that like both real & virtual pinball.
    Updated/expanded hybrid of Banzai/pac

    #117 3 months ago

    I find it a little disheartening that a lot of newer pinball machines have heavy use of LCDs and such. I'm pretty new to the hobby, but the local arcade where I started had the relatively recent Stern Star Wars and the Data East one with a color DMD. I found myself drawn to the older unit because it felt so much more alive. There were lots of little details and moving parts, and the artwork looked like it was done by hand and not in photoshop like the Stern. The point is I was able to actually connect with the DE, while Stern just felt more distant. Whatever form pinball takes in the future, it has to have that real connection. I'm not against the use of new technology, quite the opposite actually, but it has to be integrated in a way that expands my connection with the game, not just a smartphone app and a big screen like everything else

    #118 3 months ago

    So you’d rather have all those old dated dot matrix animations as opposed to playing through all the iconic scenes of the first three movies in full HD with all the sounds and call outs?

    Interesting.

    And the comic book edition of Stern SW blows the Data East art out of the water.

    #119 3 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    So you’d rather have all those old dated dot matrix animations as opposed to playing through all the iconic scenes of the first three movies in full HD with all the sounds and call outs?
    Interesting.
    And the comic book edition of Stern SW blows the Data East art out of the water.

    1) Yes. I usually watch the screens if at all for instructions only, flash doesn't attract me. If you are watching the screen your eye is off the ball and in my opinion disrupts the flow of the game. Games were there are longish periods of times between balls due to animations playing out on the screen are irritating at least in my case.

    2) The Stern cabinet looks nice, playfield is standard Photoshop stuff though. The DE cabinet looks just fine, I'm "eh" on the playfield art there though.

    #120 3 months ago

    I actually do prefer the dot matrix animations. To me, they suit pinball well since it's a very simple concept at its core. They're not too flashy but they add a lot in terms of gameplay, between instructions and video modes. If I want to watch Star Wars in HD, I'll watch Star Wars on my home TV. That's not the reason I play pinball though. I agree with gdonovan in that an LCD takes too much focus away from the actual game.
    The comic book stern is a really good looking machine, no doubt about it. I was just comparing the standard stern to DE.

    #121 3 months ago
    Quoted from Blackbeard:

    Personally i think there should be some serious discussion amongst manufacturers about making pins MORE simple. Like system 11s.
    Less costs. More simple rules. Easier to purchase.
    Make pins great again!

    And make them easier to fix like maybe move complex circuitry away from mechanical devices (flippers) that generate conductive dust.

    #122 3 months ago

    I’m so glad they made Star Wars again and did it justice. There are few games that are worse than Data East SW for me. Some games do have great dots. That’s not one of them.

    #123 3 months ago
    Quoted from cait001:

    Will pinball get to a point where the inherent layouts are absolutely exhausted?

    This will never happen. If you have ever tried to design a layout, you would realise that there are an infinite amount of choices to make along the way. For every final design, there are hundreds of acceptable variations that the designer rejected to get there.

    #124 3 months ago
    Quoted from butta1681:

    I find it a little disheartening that a lot of newer pinball machines have heavy use of LCDs and such. I'm pretty new to the hobby, but the local arcade where I started had the relatively recent Stern Star Wars and the Data East one with a color DMD. I found myself drawn to the older unit because it felt so much more alive. There were lots of little details and moving parts, and the artwork looked like it was done by hand and not in photoshop like the Stern. The point is I was able to actually connect with the DE, while Stern just felt more distant. Whatever form pinball takes in the future, it has to have that real connection. I'm not against the use of new technology, quite the opposite actually, but it has to be integrated in a way that expands my connection with the game, not just a smartphone app and a big screen like everything else

    New to the hobby eh?

    Well here’s a little story; before LCD screens took over pinball, people wouldn’t shut
    The fuck up about lcd screens. It became something they wanted more Than life itself. They were willing to die if it meant they could Just live a month in a world where pinball machines had lcd screens.

    So...I’d say you are barking up the wrong tree in this one. They are here to stay. The people demanded the thrilling innovation of LCD screens and their wild fantasies were finally realized.

    Somehow people still ain’t happy. Shocker, I know.

    #125 3 months ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    This will never happen. If you have ever tried to design a layout, you would realise that there are an infinite amount of choices to make along the way. For every final design, there are hundreds of acceptable variations that the designer rejected to get there.

    I'd argue that over 70 years of flipper pinball, yes most of the design layouts have been used. I think we were there awhile ago when manufactures tried widebodies, 2 or 3 playfields and other variations in the 80's and 90's. There is only so much you can do with a 2 x 4 sheet of plywood and a pair of flippers and a standard ball size. At this point it is a piece of this design, a piece of that design, a unique toy or two reflecting the theme and presto here is your pin.

    The situation is worse now since companies seem to be moving away from subway assemblies for cost reasons I assume which were common at one time and added another dimension to play.

    I have never played a Multimorphic pin so can offer no opinion aside from "looks cool!" so my comments are no reflection on Gerry's offerings.

    #126 3 months ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    I love this thread. I hate this thread.
    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    I lol’d

    #127 3 months ago

    I was born in the 50's and always played and owned machines. As a kid I would dream at night about games that would never be possible. Nothing much happened from the 70's to post-mmP3. I'm only a fan and hobbyist but when they "write the book" in 2030 they will be credited for bring in the new era. Hat's off to Gerry and crew. Don't ever stop thinking crazy ideas, impossible gameplay, floating shit. Write the book (that's open source right?). STOP THE LEAKS!!!

    #128 3 months ago
    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    How bout a game that has the ball purposely smack the glass
    That’ll get your blood flowin

    You mean like in Shrkey’s Shootout or Rolling Stones LE?

    My comment here is that the greatest innovation is one that is pretty much an industry standard now and no one has mentioned it. It’s called modular design. Hate it or love it, it’s here to stay. I started to see it 10+ years ago with some home brew machines, then Chicago Pinball, and now Stern and all other manufactures have all adopted nearly 100% modular components. It does make things easier on the manufacturer and a potential customer diagnosing and repairing their own machine but, it opens up other issues and concerns for most pinball purists. I truly hope that the modular design evolves to a place where designers have fewer and fewer boundaries in regard to putting more fun and new into their games. It would be awesome to have to buyer select custom features in a game like, I don’t want a pop bumper there, I want a saucer kickout or nothing at all.

    I see bits and pieces here and there in games like Dialed In, JJPOTC, Maiden, JP, and even TNA. The innovation is in all those titles and other game too but, we are all too spoiled to step back and realize it. You whiney ass brats have no idea what it’s like to look at “Stern’s newer games” called Striker Extreme, Harley Davidson, or South Park and then get excited about the future of pinball.

    We have had it good since games like LOTR and TSPP but no one even realizes it or cares. Pinball brats can never get enough and don’t usually care what others think. They will pay the thousands and complain until the cows come home. And that my friends is why “there is no innovation”... it flew right over you damn head!

    #129 3 months ago

    I've been saying the exact thing as the OP for years. Innovation feels dead.
    Most notable changes through out the years:
    You had hybrid cross over machines (granny and the gators and baby pac)
    Added spinning targets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
    Added magnets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
    Added magna save
    Added CRT ALA Pinball 2000 (didn't change game play)
    Added LCD screens (didn't change game play)
    Added wireless (and still can't figure out how to do a Firmware check and automatically update a pin? Yikes) (doesn't change game play)

    The P3 allows more dynamic game play because of it being largely software based but even then it doesn't really trip my trigger as it still feels too static.
    Why not introduce a ton of randomness by adding more older technology and create a more dynamic experience? Subways with diverters so you never know what kick out you'll have the ball come from? Add a motorized kick out? Add a motorized coil plate that can change ever so slightly and launch balls out of a kick out differently due to English on the ball? I'm just spit balling but any deviation from the static game play would be welcomed with open arms by me.
    And maybe, just maybe people aren't really wanting any real change and are happy with basically having new machines that are either a fan layout or stop and go. I feel like everything these days is basically the same machines with just different artwork and different toy.

    I know the more they add the less money they make and potentially the more problems that can occur. The last thing OPs need is problems in the field.

    If I was Gary Stern I'd run a contest and if your idea is selected then the first pin that uses your technology would be shipped to you for free as a thank you. Allowing community input would generate so much enthusiasm.

    #130 3 months ago

    CLE nailed it

    #131 3 months ago
    Quoted from CLEllison:

    Why not introduce a ton of randomness by adding more older technology and create a more dynamic experience?

    Because... the competitive players would crucify the game. Randomness = unpredictability... which is a negative. a big one.
    Not saying it's fair... but how many NIB buyers are competitive players? too many.

    #132 3 months ago
    Quoted from CLEllison:

    I've been saying the exact thing as the OP for years. Innovation feels dead.
    Most notable changes through out the years:
    You had hybrid cross over machines (granny and the gators and baby pac)
    Added spinning targets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
    Added magnets (introducing dynamic instead of static game play)
    Added magna save
    Added CRT ALA Pinball 2000 (didn't change game play)
    Added LCD screens (didn't change game play)
    Added wireless (and still can't figure out how to do a Firmware check and automatically update a pin? Yikes) (doesn't change game play)
    The P3 allows more dynamic game play because of it being largely software based but even then it doesn't really trip my trigger as it still feels too static.
    Why not introduce a ton of randomness by adding more older technology and create a more dynamic experience? Subways with diverters so you never know what kick out you'll have the ball come from? Add a motorized kick out? Add a motorized coil plate that can change ever so slightly and launch balls out of a kick out differently due to English on the ball? I'm just spit balling but any deviation from the static game play would be welcomed with open arms by me.
    And maybe, just maybe people aren't really wanting any real change and are happy with basically having new machines that are either a fan layout or stop and go. I feel like everything these days is basically the same machines with just different artwork and different toy.
    I know the more they add the less money they make and potentially the more problems that can occur. The last thing OPs need is problems in the field.
    If I was Gary Stern I'd run a contest and if your idea is selected then the first pin that uses your technology would be shipped to you for free as a thank you. Allowing community input would generate so much enthusiasm.

    You largely just described AP's Houdini

    #133 3 months ago

    Innovation is overrated and you don’t need it in every market. In fact, I would argue innovation could threaten the very thing we love about pinball. Don’t jump the shark pinball!! When is the last time you had an innovative steak or even an innovative candy bar?? See my point?? Pinball is a unique form of entertainment in itself, it does require innovation. Now will people stop enjoying it if they don’t innovate?? Hell no!! The challenges pinball faces are more about access, so if there is going to be innovation it needs to be directed toward improving access, which will more than likely come from outside of pinball, I.e. innovation in the bar industry, I.e. barcades.

    #134 3 months ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Because... the competitive players would crucify the game. Randomness = unpredictability... which is a negative. a big one.
    Not saying it's fair... but how many NIB buyers are competitive players? too many.

    Pinball to some degree is unpredictable, it is the nature of the silver ball =)

    Some items turned off for tournament play is fine though but I don't think randomness is bad. Hell, I'll sometimes play a game as player one and two and one "player" will have a great game and the other will be utter crap.

    #135 3 months ago

    Innovation does not make a better game...

    I remember when PB2000 came out. Everyone hate it.

    I prefer playing a good game instead of watching the same old video loop on a nice big display. Yea cool the first few times, but then I can't hit the flipper buttons fast enough to skip it.

    #136 3 months ago

    Sure thing ! Next innovation just around corner . You just have not thought of it yet !!

    Get busy on next idea Shane

    11
    #137 3 months ago
    Quoted from CLEllison:

    The P3 allows more dynamic game play because of it being largely software based but even then it doesn't really trip my trigger as it still feels too static.
    Why not introduce a ton of randomness by adding more older technology and create a more dynamic experience? Subways with diverters so you never know what kick out you'll have the ball come from?

    The misconception that the P3 is "largely software based" is perhaps the most difficult one to break. The software capabilities continue to expand, but the machine is packed full of physical features, just like the one you suggested. It has 8 playfield VUKs built-in and ready for use under each playfield, and every ball that goes into any hole can be diverted to any one of the VUKs. How the game software makes use of that is up to the developer, but games like LL-EE and Heist route balls to unexpected places fairly often (and oftentimes instantaneously). Heist also has diverters on pretty much every one of the 7 flowing shot paths to change the game flow depending on the mode.

    Quoted from CLEllison:

    I feel like everything these days is basically the same machines with just different artwork and different toy.

    I felt that way too - so I started a company to do something different. If you're a fan of traditional pinball with really cool interactive toys, check out Heist, Lexy Lightspeed - Escape from Earth, and Cosmic Cart Racing 2.0. If you or your friends prefer something outside the box, check out the arcade and internet gameplay options in Cosmic Cart Racing, with racing heats and online head-to-head racing, or Cannon Lagoon. If you like pitch and bats, try out Grand Slam Rally. If you want to get your young children into pinball, try out Barnyard. If your teenagers gravitate to video games, show them ROCs. All together, we're up to 4 playfield modules and 10 game apps, and more are in development!

    Quoted from CLEllison:

    I'm just spit balling but any deviation from the static game play would be welcomed with open arms by me.

    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    #138 3 months ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    The misconception that the P3 is "largely software based" is perhaps the most difficult one to break. The software capabilities continue to expand, but the machine is packed full of physical features, just like the one you suggested. It has 8 playfield VUKs built-in and ready for use under each playfield, and every ball that goes into any hole can be diverted to any one of the VUKs. How the game software makes use of that is up to the developer, but games like LL-EE and Heist route balls to unexpected places fairly often (and oftentimes instantaneously). Heist also has diverters on pretty much every one of the 7 flowing shot paths to change the game flow depending on the mode.

    I felt that way too - so I started a company to do something different. If you're a fan of traditional pinball with really cool interactive toys, check out Heist, Lexy Lightspeed - Escape from Earth, and Cosmic Cart Racing 2.0. If you or your friends prefer something outside the box, check out the arcade and internet gameplay options in Cosmic Cart Racing, with racing heats and online head-to-head racing, or Cannon Lagoon. If you like pitch and bats, try out Grand Slam Rally. If you want to get your young children into pinball, try out Barnyard. If your teenagers gravitate to video games, show them ROCs. All together, we're up to 4 playfield modules and 10 game apps, and more are in development!

    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    Just a +1 on this... Heist in particular offers a perfect mix of traditional pinball “toys”, a “world under glass”, including all kinds of mechs as Gerry pointed out. It ALSO has the dynamic RGB lit scoop line, side targets and the awesome crane. Those features alone make it competitive with any other company’s standard “traditional” game.

    Add to it the dynamic LCD playfield, the great software, virtual targets on the playfield, story line, multiple characters, the modular assembly AND the ability to build your own game. Check the “Quest for Glory” and “Ranger in the Ruins” threads. It’s crazy the stuff that’s packed into the platform.

    Oh AND by the way you can buy the other games for about $2K...

    #139 3 months ago

    Anybody notice how “wi-fi” is the new LCD screen?

    Can’t wait for the collective sigh when you all finally get it. Having your pinball machine connected to wi-fi isn’t going to change your pinball experience one iota.

    And then it’s on to the next “grail innovation,” whatever that may be.

    #140 3 months ago

    Innovation is in the eye of the beholder. That's the thing. Another previous post about a game being 'fresh' despite being a 1980's game had everything to do with the difference of play. Most 'innovations' affect play in some significant way - and at that, a way that triggers specific physical responses in order to keep the game going. Pops, slings, ramps, spinners, audio, advanced rules. These things make the game worth the time to switch it on. Take any game you have in the solid state era, even EM, and disconnect any additional sound sound other than the playfield. No chimes or speakers and game play is significantly altered, minimized is my experience. The actual physical thrill is all there, the real interaction is conceivably 'closer' because you don't have the distractions of additional sounds. Remove scoring and now you are completely at a level of simple physical interaction.

    At this point, I think it is time for a real, actual experiment. It's time to go through each and every game you own. Cover the scores, turn off the sounds, remove the controlled light fuses so that you are literally playing nothing other than the physical game and any of those mechanical interlocutors of this experience. Rank your games. Then, add first controlled lighting; again, rank. Separately, and by itself, add sound, no controlled lighting. Similarly test each game with displays for scoring available but no sound or controlled lighting. Final analysis would be all the various permutations until you have ranked your games utilizing various combinations of scoring. That, to me, would be a great study of the 'what' it is about pinball that really hooks us. I have a premonition it is the whole picture but also imagine some standout players. Anyone game for some actual research?

    #141 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    change your pinball experience one iota.

    Can't agree less on that topic.
    Have you taken part in a CCR or Heads up tourney over Wifi?
    If not; then I don't think you know what you're talking about - an haven't actually tested the capability.

    #142 3 months ago

    They still make pinball machines ?

    #143 3 months ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Can't agree less on that topic.
    Have you taken part in a CCR or Heads up tourney over Wifi?
    If not; then I don't think you know what you're talking about - an haven't actually tested the capability.

    Its a dead horse that wishes people would stop beating it. The reasons many are against competing via wifi are well discussed elsewhere. For many this is not a plus.

    #144 3 months ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Can't agree less on that topic.
    Have you taken part in a CCR or Heads up tourney over Wifi?
    If not; then I don't think you know what you're talking about - an haven't actually tested the capability.

    Novelty gimmick nobody will care about after a week.

    Been covered.

    #145 3 months ago
    Quoted from shimoda:

    Innovation is in the eye of the beholder. That's the thing. Another previous post about a game being 'fresh' despite being a 1980's game had everything to do with the difference of play. Most 'innovations' affect play in some significant way - and at that, a way that triggers specific physical responses in order to keep the game going. Pops, slings, ramps, spinners, audio, advanced rules. These things make the game worth the time to switch it on. Take any game you have in the solid state era, even EM, and disconnect any additional sound sound other than the playfield. No chimes or speakers and game play is significantly altered, minimized is my experience. The actual physical thrill is all there, the real interaction is conceivably 'closer' because you don't have the distractions of additional sounds. Remove scoring and now you are completely at a level of simple physical interaction.
    At this point, I think it is time for a real, actual experiment. It's time to go through each and every game you own. Cover the scores, turn off the sounds, remove the controlled light fuses so that you are literally playing nothing other than the physical game and any of those mechanical interlocutors of this experience. Rank your games. Then, add first controlled lighting; again, rank. Separately, and by itself, add sound, no controlled lighting. Similarly test each game with displays for scoring available but no sound or controlled lighting. Final analysis would be all the various permutations until you have ranked your games utilizing various combinations of scoring. That, to me, would be a great study of the 'what' it is about pinball that really hooks us. I have a premonition it is the whole picture but also imagine some standout players. Anyone game for some actual research?

    I don’t want to turn this into a “is pinball dying” thread, but the topic of innovation and dying industry go hand in hand don’t they ? I agree that it is the total package that makes it what it is. Question is can we continue to evolve that total package so that we are dealing with innovation rather than nostalgia. The death of arcades was heralded by the video game console (interestingly they developed side by side). Pinball (and for that matter the awful awful redemption arcade) has managed to hang on because there is an experience that can’t as of yet be replicated digitally. Sure my arcade has all the classics video games, but I am heavy on pinballs and heavy on mechanical machines because you can’t replicate that easily at home. They key is offering a new experience but not reducing it to boring (the been there done that problem with any amusement device). I really like P3. If you want to say what commercial machine has tried to take us farther out than we’ve been, it’s that. And here is where my bold prediction come in: I think we are gonna see more of this. Imagine you took every EM game (not just pins) and reimagined it with all the advantages of digital upgrade. You could start to do some really cool novel stuff that you can’t get on a PS4.
    Digital enhancements to foosball, skee ball, air hockey, Chexx bubble hockey. I really thing P3 is just the beginning of what can be done. Hope I’m right.

    #146 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Can’t wait for the collective sigh when you all finally get it.

    Once again you gotta know your audience. 10,000+ posts on "how do I update my machine," What USB stick do I use," "Um having problems updating..."

    Etc

    #147 3 months ago

    I guess I am not sure why modern pinball machines don't have wifi capability. Modern juke boxes already that. If you made a high score, it could post to a common location somewhere, assuming you wanted to do that. Operators could monitor games remotely to see if there are any errors and give refunds without being near the machine. All these selfie leagues would not be required. It could also lead to discussions on strategy on machines with deep rule sets and such while you are still playing a game. I know machines at major tournament have the scorebit device that relays back play data, but why not a similar type connection for new machines, already built in? Perhaps you could play against another person, at another location, on an identical machine, without even having to be there. Just a thought. Seems like all the technology with cameras and such already exists on some machines anyway. Perhaps you could enter a tournament against many people simultaneously, without ever leaving your house. Machines like Dialed In, already have a camera, not that I want my selfie taken continuously. Just one more step to connect to wifi continuously. Any updates required to the code could be made automatically, or just by allowing the code update to happen with answering a question like that with "yes". No more memory stick insertion and such.

    #148 3 months ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Its a dead horse that wishes people would stop beating it. The reasons many are against competing via wifi are well discussed elsewhere. For many this is not a plus.

    Oh, believe me, it's a very live horse that is developing and growing. People are developing new games right now on the P3 using Internet connectivity in different ways. In bingopodcast's new game Ranger in the Ruins, "when you lose a game, if your P3 is connected to the Internet, some 'ghost' data will be written, which can then allow you to appear within another's game". Internet connectivity brings a whole host of new interactive gameplay options and they are not all about competing. Players on different machines could work together, for example, in an online co-op game. It would be a little close-minded to dismiss all the fun and interesting possibilities because you are worried that someone is going to cheat against you in an online tournament.

    #149 3 months ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    Oh, believe me, it's a very live horse that is developing and growing. People are developing new games right now on the P3 using Internet connectivity in different ways. In bingopodcast's new game Ranger in the Ruins, "when you lose a game, if your P3 is connected to the Internet, some 'ghost' data will be written, which can then allow you to appear within another's game". Internet connectivity brings a whole host of new interactive gameplay options and they are not all about competing. Players on different machines could work together, for example, in an online co-op game. It would be a little close-minded to dismiss all the fun and interesting possibilities because you are worried that someone is going to cheat against you in an online tournament.

    I could envision a P3 game based off table-top RPG campaigns and you join different parties (different groups of players around the world) and have to build up stats over the course of a month. Each player could log in to the campaign once per day and put in a game and that effects the entire party's progress and status.

    maybe you do one game for that party per day, but you could simultaneously be part of a number of entirely different campaigns with different groups of people. so advance your first story, log that game, then move on to the next story you're involved in.

    #150 3 months ago

    People like claiming horses are dead... when they are infact undead.

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