(Topic ID: 275579)

Is there any real innovation left in pinball ?

By pookycade

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Zitt
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    Topic poll

    “Is pinball still innovative ”

    • Hell yes, you just aren’t paying attention to all the new things going on 104 votes
      70%
    • Meh, not really, but still luv me some TMNT 45 votes
      30%

    (149 votes)

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    There are 318 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.
    #51 1 year ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    What do you want? People always say they want innovation but never buy into it. There has been plenty of innovation and most of them failed. You could say Stern is innovative with their Spike system. Less wiring and less parts. How do people respond? Games are too light and thus inferior quality. Stern has done plenty of other innovations - projections, interactive toppers, magna slings, etc. Can't say I like any of it, though. JJP tried to be innovative with cell phone features in DI. That didn't go well. P3 came out with something truly innovative but it's not what most pinheads want.

    I guess it’s one of those I know it when I see it. God I hate when people say that (note to self) To be honest I look at something like Zen Pinball with its animations and go “this has potential to be something”. Yeah not a real machine I know, and it’s actual implementation is annoying, but the potential is there. Multimorphic comes close but I just didn’t feel anything when I played one. The thing with risk taking is 90% of its is gonna fail due to bad implementation, bad reception, too nascent (Hyperball, Orbitor1 anyone ?) Could VR pinball eventually be a common thing where we are no longer limited by a physical space ? I don’t know. Part of the problem as I see it is that we keep bringing back the hits, so you still have Ritchie, Ousler, Lawlor doing this. Nice machines, but groundbreaking ? Nah. It may take someone new who gets introduced to the game but can take it in a whole new direction. Perhaps we won’t even know until we can look back 10 years and see what was the start of a new way of doing things

    #52 1 year ago

    Here's an innovative idea. A legitimate warranty. One year parts and labor.

    17
    #53 1 year ago

    There will be no innovation.

    Pinball is flippers batting a ball around a play area. If you are looking for innovation, find a new hobby.

    What is it with pinball? People get into pinball - an 80 year old game that’s flippers batting a ball around - and decide it’s not exciting or innovative enough and insist manufacturers drastically “reimagine” a game that people buy based partly on nostalgia.

    It’s like someone getting really into fishing but complaining that it isn’t boat racing.

    #54 1 year ago

    People say they want something new and different, but most people get uncomfortable quick and just really want familiarity and nostalgia. This happens everywhere else outside of pinball...

    Sports - Why doesn't the NFL change? They make money hand over fist, and when something "new" comes along like the XFL it fails because no one knows the players and it's not something popular enough to discuss with other people.

    Music - People: "Why doesn't anyone make ORIGINAL music anymore?!" Indpendent/Soundcloud/Whatever you want to call it hip-hop artists: "Here give this a try" People: "No not like that, I meant why don't people make music that sounds what I've listened to for the past 25 years!"

    Food/Beer: "Craft beer? These hipsters and their IPAs! Can't beat my trusty Bud Light". Compare the line at a McDonalds to any of the independent/smaller restaurants on the same block at lunch time.

    TVs: Remember 3D TVs? Curved TVs? HD-DVD? All dead products that no one bought.

    People fear and hate change. I'm not saying I'm any different ha, but people will always gravitate to what's familiar. P3 is probably the biggest risk pinball has taken in years. I'm not privy to their sales or financials, so I don't know how we'll it's selling or how popular it is, but I'll tell you I've only seen one once in person at a show maybe 2 years ago, and never on location, where as I can find any new JJP/Stern game within minutes of my house on the day of release to play. Familiar sells, innovation is a risk. Wish it was the opposite.

    #55 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    There will be no innovation.

    It's a strange conundrum. Nothing is innovative to half the people, and the other people think things that have already been done decades ago would be innovative now.

    #56 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    It's a strange conundrum. Nothing is innovative to half the people, and the other people think things that have already been done decades ago would be innovative now.

    I think you're on to something here. I also find myself much less concerned with technical innovation these days and more with design innovation. The toys and screens are neat, but ultimately I want to play a game that shoots like something I haven't played before. Some good recent examples of what I mean is Stranger Things and Radical (ha). There is some "innovation" in Stranger Things that's neat...the projector, the UV stuff (cost, etc. aside), the ramp that comes down to reveal the toy (which is cool when you can make the shot). All of these are "new" for pinball, but ultimately I just felt like I was playing a fan layout game with a target bank in the middle, and I've played that game ALOT.

    On the flip side, I just picked up a Radical that honestly I didn't even really intend to keep, but the layout is new (to me, not age wise) and the game doesn't really feel like anything else out there. It's 30 years old, but still felt fresher to me than playing Stranger Things. I have appreciated some of the newer Stern games for the same reason...JP, TWD, Maiden, even Deadpool...nothing really innovative about them toy/tech wise, but they just feel like something I haven't played before, and I'll take that all day.

    #57 1 year ago

    I like it as is and it works so yeah better sound and displays and all that but I'm fine a couple spinners, 2 or 3 ramps some drops, I have no issue with code in modern pins its great. If there's one department where I wish they would wake up its in themes. Most of them suck.
    Jesus H.
    Wonka to The Terminator '84
    Hot Wheels to Blade Runner
    TMNT to The Road Warrior
    In a way its a good thing because I'd be broke.

    #58 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    There will be no innovation.
    Pinball is flippers batting a ball around a play area. If you are looking for innovation, find a new hobby.
    What is it with pinball? People get into pinball - an 80 year old game that’s flippers batting a ball around - and decide it’s not exciting or innovative enough and insist manufacturers drastically “reimagine” a game that people buy based partly on nostalgia.
    It’s like someone getting really into fishing but complaining that it isn’t boat racing.

    It seems like theres this need to have everything modernized with big screens, wifi, cameras, mics, etc.

    It all started with our telephones, then happened with our computers and TVs.

    I play pinball to escape all of that. Its core elements are good enough and it's been that way for a long time.

    #59 1 year ago

    Just think of a layout and ramps like WH20. Or all the diverters and cool shots of Congo (and a volcano shooting the ball out), or all of the unique shots and toys of TAF or TZ. Wait a minute? What's that? What's that you say? Those games are 30 years old? So, to answer your question, while programming has become more advanced, the physical aspects of the game have gone backwards unless you want to pay 10K+ for game from JJP. But unlike W/B games, those games have the personality of a log.

    #60 1 year ago

    My first experience with a modern Stern, was a used Stern Star Trek Pro (2012) and I was blown away with the ammount of innovation in there. The third button is actually used in play and was new to me at the time. The LEDs were great and I think really improve upon the look and feel of the game. As far as gameplay goes, the back loop actually goes back behind the playfield which is really cool. The ship launches balls back at you magnetically. The ability to lock a ball behind the 3rd flipper to start a mode is 100% innovation and a great enhanced feature. I have never played it but the premium's laser light show looked pretty cool too. I miss my machine but there were so many things that were new to me on that machine.

    #61 1 year ago

    Shot Multipliers have been around for a long time, but GOT & SW took it to the next level.

    They were rewarded with tears aboot pinball including points & having to push a button a button on a fucking pinball machine FFS.

    13
    #62 1 year ago

    I really want to see more mechanical stuff happening. A big display doesn't really impress me much.

    #63 1 year ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I really want to see more mechanical stuff happening. A big display doesn't really impress me much.

    I had my first "big display" game with Stranger Things. I have to admit that I loved seeing scenes from the show. I love how the more you did to make it through the mode, the more you got to see of the scene. That was cool. But, I'm with you. I play pinball to see cool mechanical stuff happening on the playfield above all else.

    #64 1 year ago

    The question is what can you reliably do mechanically to really impress people these days?

    More complexity to mechanical pieces on the PF I guess could be interesting but what is left to do? Ships have sunk and rocked, balls shoot into trunks and hit by a hammer under a the PF, whats left? Bring ball walkers back? Do you guys just want a little or like a mousetrap/rube goldberg situation?

    #65 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    The question is what can you reliably do mechanically to really impress people these days?
    More complexity to mechanical pieces on the PF I guess could be interesting but what is left to do? Ships have sunk and rocked, balls shoot into trunks and hit by a hammer under a the PF, whats left? Bring ball walkers back? Do you guys just want a little or like a mousetrap/rube goldberg situation?

    I'm not sure what I want, but I'll know when I see it. Hasn't that always been the case in pinball? I'm a pinball consumer, not a designer. So, all I can say to them is "impress me". Before TAF came out, did anyone ever say that they wanted to have magnets under the playfield to randomize a ball or a hand to take the ball off the playfield? I doubt it. But when we saw it for the first time, it was pretty f'n sweet.

    #66 1 year ago
    Quoted from sataneatscheese:

    My first experience with a modern Stern, was a used Stern Star Trek Pro (2012) and I was blown away with the ammount of innovation in there. The third button is actually used in play and was new to me at the time. The LEDs were great and I think really improve upon the look and feel of the game. As far as gameplay goes, the back loop actually goes back behind the playfield which is really cool. The ship launches balls back at you magnetically. The ability to lock a ball behind the 3rd flipper to start a mode is 100% innovation and a great enhanced feature. I have never played it but the premium's laser light show looked pretty cool too. I miss my machine but there were so many things that were new to me on that machine.

    I would agree with you here. I was pretty awestruck by that game. I do think it will be looked back upon as groundbreaking in its own right. And I know that people have mixed feelings about it, but Hobbit and code depth (or as some would say “let me spend 10 hours playing one game”) has seen many games incorporate more elements of this

    #67 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    The question is what can you reliably do mechanically to really impress people these days?
    More complexity to mechanical pieces on the PF I guess could be interesting but what is left to do? Ships have sunk and rocked, balls shoot into trunks and hit by a hammer under a the PF, whats left? Bring ball walkers back? Do you guys just want a little or like a mousetrap/rube goldberg situation?

    Well that’s just it isn’t it ? Have we exhausted what we can do mechanically here ? Any more physical principles to exploit that would dramatically overhaul game play and usher in a new era ? Don’t know

    #68 1 year ago

    One of my favorite things about classic Bally games was the repeating of some features. When stuff worked, you would eventually see the exact same feature on another game. It's flippers, balls, and smacking things around for fun. And the next game released will include flippers, balls, and you will be smacking stuff around.

    But don't worry. I'm not jaded. I still love it. Every once in a while, a programmer turns those things into magic. All of a sudden the shot you want (need!) becomes the only shot in the game. There is danger if you miss, and reward if you hit it. And all of a sudden the sounds, sights, and shots come together. When they do that, it isn't innovation, but I sure want to play it.

    #69 1 year ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    I had my first "big display" game with Stranger Things. I have to admit that I loved seeing scenes from the show. I love how the more you did to make it through the mode, the more you got to see of the scene. That was cool. But, I'm with you. I play pinball to see cool mechanical stuff happening on the playfield above all else.

    The big display is fun for a bit, but with a home use game the scenes get old really quick. I flip past all the Elvira scenes in EHoH already. They are just too long and flipping past them keeps the game moving.

    I agree with everyone who mentioned more innovative mechanisms. I think that’s what many of us would appreciate the most.

    #70 1 year ago
    Quoted from Krupps4:

    The big display is fun for a bit, but with a home use game the scenes get old really quick. I flip past all the Elvira scenes in EHoH already. They are just too long and flipping past them keeps the game moving.

    That isn't the displays fault, it's the programing; same as DMD era stuff.

    #71 1 year ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    TMNT to The Road Warrior

    weird, i wouldn't peg you for a Road Warrior fan!

    #72 1 year ago
    Quoted from Kkoss24:

    Would you agree the missing piece is having a 365 days a year running factory? Meaning while they profit on singular pins there’s big down time with making these in between .

    I think some of the companies striving to make two games a year will help.

    I know outside of Stern it hasn't happened yet. And won't over night. They do seem to be working in that direction.

    Exciting times ahead.

    LTG : )

    #73 1 year ago

    There are potentially endless possibilities in pinball innovation, it's just that many people don't want stuff like p3 multimorphic. They like the stuff that they're used to. Probably a major reason that there hasn't been a huge amount of innovation in these past years is for that exact reason.

    #74 1 year ago

    Prices continue rise for the "same thing," so there really much incentive to change.

    #75 1 year ago

    I'll bet when color TV came out people were satisfied for many decades before LCD became a thing.

    Can't predict the future. I'd be willing to bet we may see innovation with things that haven't even been invented yet. Or maybe there is technology that isn't affordable yet. Like, we could have the pinball do....this....but that will raise the price of the machine from $6,000 to $45,000

    #76 1 year ago

    How bout a game that has the ball purposely smack the glass

    That’ll get your blood flowin

    #77 1 year ago
    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    How bout a game that has the ball purposely smack the glass
    That’ll get your blood flowin

    I feel like enough of my games already do that

    #78 1 year ago

    I don't want innovation I want the TZ upper playfield to be brought back

    #79 1 year ago

    Powerfield so great.

    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    How bout a game that has the ball purposely smack the glass

    Basically have that with Wh20 although they say it wasn't made that way

    #80 1 year ago

    Innovation in an anachronistic hobby. That's funny.

    Kinda like asking why laser tag isn't part of a Renaissance Fair

    #81 1 year ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Kinda like asking why laser tag isn't part of a Renaissance Fair

    Don't give them any ideas! Places are already over run with Pirates.

    #82 1 year ago

    I'd just like to see someone come up with a stand-up target that absorbs impact and doesn't rocket the ball against the glass or down the drain.....I've searched all weekend and found zilch,zero, nothing to be had

    #83 1 year ago
    Quoted from oldbaby:

    New stuff that I would like to see more of:
    Co-op play (TMNT, TNA)
    Character Selection (TMNT, GOT, JJP PotC)
    Map mode system (Stern Jurassic Park)
    Mini-wizard mode accessible as alternative game mode from start (Stern Jurassic Park, TMNT) (this is big)
    The tilt warning lights from JJP PotC.
    Everything about JJP PotC.
    Upper flipper controlled by separate button (Heist)
    Pausing the game (Heist)
    Racing system in Cosmic Cart Racing
    The Projector in Stranger Things
    Multiball lit by switch hits (Elvira HoH)
    Probably more stuff that I'm forgetting.

    Agree with all the above! Map mode on Roadshow was great, except for the lack of randomness (now changed thanks to new code).

    There should still be an optional training mode to learn game rules, practice shots, etc without tying it to a high score. Now that we have LCD screens, there is no excuse.

    #84 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Powerfield so great.

    Basically have that with Wh20 although they say it wasn't made that way

    Add Comet center ramp to the list

    #85 1 year ago
    Quoted from the9gman:

    I'd just like to see someone come up with a stand-up target that absorbs impact and doesn't rocket the ball against the glass or down the drain.....I've searched all weekend and found zilch,zero, nothing to be had

    Vari-targets

    #86 1 year ago
    guess i should have put a disclaimer on that .....vari-targets take up a lot of space
    should have said with minimal space change on the play field to the original targets. when you have a bumper right behind the stand up you have got little to work with

    #87 1 year ago

    Software is where there's the most room for innovation right now. At some point the manufacturers will move past the crappy web animations.

    11
    #88 1 year ago

    A triple spinning disk would be the greatest innovation of all time.

    #89 1 year ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    Software is where there's the most room for innovation right now. At some point the manufacturers will move past the crappy web animations.

    Right. Plenty of innovation using the internet. You could download updates or special game modes, check game stats/settings using app, compete with others online, etc. You could even have Stern support connect to your game to diagnose faults. Problem is few people are asking for features like this and what we have now works fine for most people most of the time. Plus, it takes a lot of time and resources just to code the gameplay.

    #90 1 year ago

    Pinball doesn’t have enough of a market to truly inspire “leaps and bounds” style innovation. R&D is expensive and takes quite a while to generate a return on investment. There just isn’t enough large growth sales potential to justify that risk in pinball. That is the reality. If sales of pinball machines were equal to those in the automobile industry or video game industries then you would see innovation.

    However, re-using more of the existing design elements of the past in new and interesting ways could be interesting. But again someone has to take the risk with their money to do that.

    #91 1 year ago

    So I’ll throw out a half concept that never went anywhere but I suspect could be made to work somehow: Hyperball. I have one, it’s a novelty, but the concept is just awesome. What if you actually had balls fired back at you and had to deflect them in addition to firing yourself ? Yeah half baked idea for sure, but it’s an example of a mechanical mod that never has its potential truly realized. Why does everything that interacts with the ball have to be a flipper ?

    #92 1 year ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    Why does everything that interacts with the ball have to be a flipper ?

    Flipper, targets, other balls, magnets.. all present. Can you explain how to fully realize the concept you're describing a bit more?

    #93 1 year ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Flipper, targets, other balls, magnets.. all present. Can you explain how to fully realize the concept you're describing a bit more?

    No I can’t, I’m not smart enough. But imagine perhaps a mechanical version of Warlords. Target like Hyperball, but have to defend and deflect like warlords. Have to flip back and forth between different sets of controls perhaps. I’ve always liked Sterns use or the center button on Star Wars to destroy Tai fighters. How about have to actually target and destroy they with a Hyperball cannon while playing the pin ? Meh it would probably suck, but it would be interesting for sure

    #94 1 year ago

    I had an idea years ago for a headset that would project 3D animations onto a real pinball playfield. So you'd see explosions and stuff as you play. It is possible but very expensive to develop. There's certainly a lot more that pinball can do, more than ever before I'd say, but where's the money gonna come from?

    #95 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinballlife:

    the pinball public REALLY wanted true progression in pinball they would be the sales leader.

    Pinball public doesn’t want to pay 10k for a game. If P3 was in line with a stern premium, I’d already own one. It’s a shame that awesome innovation costs so much.

    #96 1 year ago
    Quoted from the9gman:

    guess i should have put a disclaimer on that .....vari-targets take up a lot of space

    Wrong answer. The right answer is: bring back vari-targets.

    #97 1 year ago

    I’ll put up another possible major innovation and this on might one day have legs. Playing mechanical games like pinball over the internet. Few stabs already at this commercially but too much latency for it to work reliably. If I could put all the pins at my arcade online and they were actually playable, we’d have something.

    #98 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Wrong answer. The right answer is: bring back vari-targets

    so take the lower 6 targets on a raven and figure out how to put vari-targets in their place. that would be an engineering feat of mind boggling proportion.

    #99 1 year ago
    Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

    How bout a game that has the ball purposely smack the glass
    That’ll get your blood flowin

    White Water?

    #100 1 year ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    I’ll put up another possible major innovation and this on might one day have legs. Playing mechanical games like pinball over the internet. Few stabs already at this commercially but too much latency for it to work reliably. If I could put all the pins at my arcade online and they were actually playable, we’d have something.

    It’s a great idea except it’s impossible to do with zero lag, therefore it’s a non starter. Unless you can change the laws of
    Time,
    Space, and speed.

    That WOULD be innovative !

    There are 318 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 7.

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