(Topic ID: 70866)

Is the ST LE Bashing Simply P@##& Envy? Or Something Else?

By Aussiepinwiz

10 years ago


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There are 159 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
#51 10 years ago
Quoted from pinmister:

Well for one thing it wont break down as often and you wont have to deal with left cannon optos or J21 or......

Really? You just guessing or have any experience to back that up cause a pinsider here recently placed 6 of his pins on location a few weeks ago; WCS, Gameshow, Independence Day, Transformers Pro, Star Trek Pro and Taxi and I'll give you one guess as to which pin has been the biggest PITA for service calls...

#52 10 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

Really? You just guessing or have any experience to back that up cause a pinsider here recently placed 6 of his pins on location a few weeks ago; WCS, Gameshow, Independence Day, Transformers Pro, Star Trek Pro and Taxi and I'll give you one guess as to which pin has been the biggest PITA for service calls...

ST?

#53 10 years ago

Good luck to all the owners, I have nothing but the best in mind for you and your pinball experience. But on the flip side, I hope that Stern sells about 200 of the total LEs and comes to the realization that just because it says LE doesn't mean it can charge out the wazoo. I hope, that Stern feels this one and if there are any people on a 'Stern Strike' I hope this one hits home and they come to realize fool me once shame on me, but you won't fool me again (XM LE owner).

As I said before regarding ST LE (in regards to Stern) "Pride goeth before the fall"

#54 10 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Good luck to all the owners, I have nothing but the best in mind for you and your pinball experience. But on the flip side, I hope that Stern sells about 200 of the total LEs and comes to the realization that just because it says LE doesn't mean it can charge out the wazoo"

I think Stern needs to come to the realization that they can EITHER build a pin light on the features and light on the price, OR heavy on the features and heavy on the price. But not light on the features and heavy on the price. The pinball market is demonstrating, for better or for worse, that manufacturers CAN charge out the wazoo, but only if they deliver much more than the standard feature set.

#55 10 years ago

Give that man a cigar.

#56 10 years ago
Quoted from Rick432:

I think Stern needs to come to the realization that they can EITHER build a pin light on the features and light on the price, OR heavy on the features and heavy on the price. But not light on the features and heavy on the price. The pinball market is demonstrating, for better or for worse, that manufacturers CAN charge out the wazoo, but only if they deliver much more than the standard feature set.

I don't think we've demonstrated it QUITE yet...

Maybe soon tho...

#57 10 years ago

The quick release of the code update and the upcoming speech power pack was not the result of the LE prepaid club...it was precisely the "Something else" you asked in your post, it's all good they got the message and only because we dared critique this pin.

#58 10 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

Get that man a cigar.

So what were the issues? Assume lights and auto fire were issues. What else?

#59 10 years ago
Quoted from wdpvideo:

I am not sure way people are bashing it. Most bashing it have never played it.
I think it comes down to the price, That's all I can figure.

really? what tipped you off, holmes? was it the thousand of posts complaining about the price?

#60 10 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Bashing started when Stern raised prices for really no reason.
imposed punishment from passionate pinballers is how I see it.
Will Stern learn and adapt? Can't see that happening too soon...especially with Superman coming next.

How do you know what Sterns "reasons" were? Do you have access to their books and know something we don't know? The cost of almost everything is going up, is Stern different? I remember when I was pumping gas it was 22.9 cents a gallon.

#61 10 years ago

I'm looking forward to my StarTrek LE, who cares what anyone else thinks. I see a lot of bashing and notice most of it comes from WOZ owners? Maybe they wish they had held out for Star Trek.

#62 10 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

I'm looking forward to my StarTrek LE, who cares what anyone else thinks. I see a lot of bashing and notice most of it comes from WOZ owners? Maybe they wish they had held out for Star Trek.

Well, I'm a WOZ owner, but I'm still looking forward to my STLE. Almost as anxious to get this one than WOZ, since I don't have an Stern LE in my collection and I think this one looks beautiful. Plus, I love the theme and initial feedback says the pro version is awesome!

#63 10 years ago

I'd like to add, for me, I don't bash ST LE so much as I am po'ed about the price increase as well as being a XM LE owner from day one. I truly hope ST LE is a great game, but at the same time I hope that Stern doesn't sell many of them. If it were priced similar to XM LE which I got for $6600 they probably would be getting less flack from the price police. But then they go and price it another $1200 or more than XM LE. For the record, I thought $6600 for XM LE was too high, I coulda got a WoZ standard for $6800 but didn't like the game play, but my point being seems like price gouging IMO. So no hate of the game, but from me hate of the too high price.

#64 10 years ago
Quoted from BillP:

So what were the issues? Assume lights and auto fire were issues. What else?

Flippers.

#65 10 years ago

Really? That is the one thing I would have expected to be rock solid at this point.

#66 10 years ago

Umm, there's a product called dreamlites that is a stuffed animal which projects stars on the walls and ceiling of a bedroom for $29.95. I actually thought it's a really, really cool thing for the money (especially if you are a kid that wants a little light in your room to fall asleep or to just occupy your imagination a few minutes before you fall asleep).

To have a similar toy in the pinball brings to mind the ability to increase the game beyond the playfield and seems to promise to be a fun, imaginative and engaging thing. But man, from $29.95 to $2995 is where all the confusion comes in for me

In the end if people pay for LE's features and they remain collectible and hold value it's all good.

#67 10 years ago
Quoted from Indypin:

Well, I'm a WOZ owner, but I'm still looking forward to my STLE. Almost as anxious to get this one than WOZ, since I don't have an Stern LE in my collection and I think this one looks beautiful. Plus, I love the theme and initial feedback says the pro version is awesome!

I know if I owned WOZ LE I would excited about my Star Trek LE just saying obviously not every WOZ owner. I found it strange but could be simply coincidental.

#68 10 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Really? That is the one thing I would have expected to be rock solid at this point.

I know. You and everyone else. It's getting more apparent that they aren't building these things to put on route anymore.

#69 10 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Good luck to all the owners, I have nothing but the best in mind for you and your pinball experience. But on the flip side, I hope that Stern sells about 200 of the total LEs and comes to the realization that just because it says LE doesn't mean it can charge out the wazoo. I hope, that Stern feels this one and if there are any people on a 'Stern Strike' I hope this one hits home and they come to realize fool me once shame on me, but you won't fool me again (XM LE owner).
As I said before regarding ST LE (in regards to Stern) "Pride goeth before the fall"

Actually, I'm hoping that they do only make 200. It makes the purchased LE's hold their value and rarity more. It would also teach Stern about supply and demand when you price an item out of the home market.

#70 10 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

I know. You and everyone else. It's getting more apparent that they aren't building these things to put on route anymore.

jeez. can't finish code. build quality deteriorating. designs are derivative and stagnant. LE perks underwhelming and overpriced. what is it exactly that Stern does well? it seems to be a short list. credit where it's due: PPS and JJP do not offer a $4500 product, so that's definitely a positive mark on the Stern report card, but aside from that?

#71 10 years ago

I will be curious to see how the ST at my local arcade holds up over time. The game is a few weeks old and the playfield looks like the surface of the moon (worst dimpling I have seen) i know that the vengeance kicks the ball out at a VERY high rate of speed! Not sure if this is what is causing it or not, but the MET and AC/DC sitting right beside it have been there longer and their playfields look great.

#72 10 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Good luck to all the owners, I have nothing but the best in mind for you and your pinball experience. But on the flip side, I hope that Stern sells about 200 of the total LEs and comes to the realization that just because it says LE doesn't mean it can charge out the wazoo.

Here's where we need to have a little perspective - just because it didn't sell out instantly, doesn't mean they won't sell them all eventually, even with some of us "usual suspects" passing on it. If they all sell out tomorrow...or a year from tomorrow - that's 800 expensive games SOLD. So...mission accomplished.

#73 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

that's 800 expensive games SOLD. So...mission accomplished.

799, at 800 it wouldn't be an LE.

#74 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Here's where we need to have a little perspective - just because it didn't sell out instantly, doesn't mean they won't sell them all eventually, even with some of us "usual suspects" passing on it. If they all sell out tomorrow...or a year from tomorrow - that's 800 expensive games SOLD. So...mission accomplished.

I agree, however there are still a crap ton of TF LE for sale, in fact one sold here a few months back (nib) for $5200

My point is, I'd love to see the price come down or there to be excess units left over for Stern to choke on.

I don't wish Stern to go under or anything, but just maybe less pride (as in they think they can charge whatever and people will buy it) and maybe they look at Avengers or XM LE or TF and think maybe they ripped off the owners (speaking for XM LE, I do love it, but it's still a mess in the code, and there was talk from Steve that it was over for the code, that really makes me mad after paying so much for a game and having a spokesman at Stern say well it's over as far as we are concerned. We got our money now f-off).

#75 10 years ago
Quoted from LesManley:

I know. You and everyone else. It's getting more apparent that they aren't building these things to put on route anymore.

Our Distributor here said if STLE does not sell they will go on site

#76 10 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

I will be curious to see how the ST at my local arcade holds up over time. The game is a few weeks old and the playfield looks like the surface of the moon (worst dimpling I have seen) i know that the vengeance kicks the ball out at a VERY high rate of speed! Not sure if this is what is causing it or not, but the MET and AC/DC sitting right beside it have been there longer and their playfields look great.

Perhaps a little to do with dimpling being much more pronounced/noticeable on a brand new machine. Over time it is less noticeable. It's a fast game your gonna get airballs but in the end pins are meant to be played and dimpling will happen on every machine. I haven't noticed more dimples on my ST NIB than my XM NIB.

#77 10 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Perhaps a little to do with dimpling being much more pronounced/noticeable on a brand new machine. Over time it is less noticeable. It's a fast game your gonna get airballs but in the end pins are meant to be played and dimpling will happen on every machine. I haven't noticed more dimples on my ST NIB than my XM NIB.

Thanks Dude for posting that. These "crater/dimpling" posts always get me worked up.

#78 10 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

How do you know what Sterns "reasons" were? Do you have access to their books and know something we don't know? The cost of almost everything is going up, is Stern different? I remember when I was pumping gas it was 22.9 cents a gallon.

How do I know? I was there. Anymore questions?

You can see how the reaction to the pricing was all over Pinside and in many collectors decisions. I was in on a STLE, since announced many months ago. Pulled out due to price and lack of LCD display, which was told we would get as early as TF.

You CAN see what's going on, correct? (:-/

#79 10 years ago
Quoted from John-from-PA:

To have a similar toy in the pinball brings to mind the ability to increase the game beyond the playfield and seems to promise to be a fun, imaginative and engaging thing. But man, from $29.95 to $2995 is where all the confusion comes in for me

Let's compare this to car accessories. MINI used to sell a $1600 fancy GPS system that talked to you for an upgrade. Or you could just go to WalMart and buy a $200 GPS unit that you can stuff into your pocket.

#80 10 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

How do I know? I was there. Anymore questions?
You can see how the reaction to the pricing was all over Pinside and in many collectors decisions. I was in on a STLE, since announced many months ago. Pulled out due to price and lack of LCD display, which was told we would get as early as TF.
You CAN see what's going on, correct? (:-/

They never said a LCD would be in TF. They said no more orange dots. Everyone assumed LCD but it turned out to be red dots instead.

#81 10 years ago

Helped set up all 3 at the SPF...I'm not overly impressed. It's more glitz than anything else. I would applaud Stern's creativity and out of the box thinking...if they had applied any here. Lately it's, 'Pick a popular license', 'make a pin', and then 'sucker all the license-whores into buying one.'

The last great Stern was LOTR IMO...and for the record, I hate that trilogy. Loved the pin, though. TSPP also made for a good, challenging game, and heck, I even enjoyed CSI. But what have you done lately, Stern? It's the same pump-and-dump mentality you've been using since TRON.

It's not about licensing, Stern...it's about making games that are *gasp* actually fun to play. Now, my standards of fun are not the same as everyone elses, I tend to get off on the gadgets, and how they fit into gameplay. But there have been a few "pingasmic" moment's in my life, Two thanks to Williams and one was even provided by Stern, so I know you are capable...just not inclined. Licensing means precisely squat to me...SHOW ME YOUR SKILLS.

As the post asked, is it a case of Overblown Wang Envy? No. I think, however if people are going to spend this kind of money on a machine, it should be because they love the game for it's play, and not because it is an objet d'art, which lately, is what Stern has been selling. And I think on some level, the people that love the Silver Ball know it.

-Dan

#82 10 years ago
Quoted from dagamedoc:

Helped set up all 3 at the SPF...I'm not overly impressed. It's more glitz than anything else. I would applaud Stern's creativity and out of the box thinking...if they had applied any here. Lately it's, 'Pick a popular license', 'make a pin', and then 'sucker all the license-whores into buying one.'
The last great Stern was LOTR IMO...and for the record, I hate that trilogy. Loved the pin, though. TSPP also made for a good, challenging game, and heck, I even enjoyed CSI. But what have you done lately, Stern? It's the same pump-and-dump mentality you've been using since TRON.
It's not about licensing, Stern...it's about making games that are *gasp* actually fun to play. Now, my standards of fun are not the same as everyone elses, I tend to get off on the gadgets, and how they fit into gameplay. But there have been a few "pingasmic" moment's in my life, Two thanks to Williams and one was even provided by Stern, so I know you are capable...just not inclined. Licensing means precisely squat to me...SHOW ME YOUR SKILLS.
As the post asked, is it a case of Overblown Wang Envy? No. I think, however if people are going to spend this kind of money on a machine, it should be because they love the game for it's play, and not because it is an objet d'art, which lately, is what Stern has been selling. And I think on some level, the people that love the Silver Ball know it.
-Dan

This is exactly why we have heated discussion on Pinside. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
I also enjoy LOTR but feel that ACDC is the absolute BEST game made to date. It's such a rush.
Last night I played STLE in a private collection of about 15 pins and in my opinion, it was either better than the rest, or right up there with the best of em.

To each their own, right?

#83 10 years ago

Very true...but as long as you love the games for the gameplay. It's all I ask. We have different ideas of what makes a great game, but as long as your playing it, that's everything.

-Dan

#84 10 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I believe, Stern thought they left money on the table for MET LE, so what they did was make more numbers and charge more for ST LE. But the end result people see that ST LE is not going to sell out so they see it will not be another BIBLE or TRON LE. People see that you can still buy XM LE and Avenger LE and TF LE NIB or buy the used ones for a $1500 or $2000 discount. Add to that people are getting WoZ or had got Met LE or will get MMR just might be less demand or less money left over for another Stern that has no LCD or no color DMD yet costs almost the same money as MMR.

I believe ST LE was in trouble from day one, not that it was a bad pin, but costing $7700 was a lot, making 799 was too much, better to leave them wanting more thats the key. Then on top of that they delayed shipping long enough for MMR to steal a march on them. I know MMR is still a long way off, but people see $8k has to come from somewhere and if they don't think ST LE will sell for near that on resale maybe that comes into play. If someone was on the fence probably will wait and see, or just give Stern the finger (much like Stern has done to previous buyers with unfinished code now more than a year past on XM).

Stern is getting a nice blow back from screwing us with shoddy code and price increases for too long.

IMO

I couldn't have said it better... Pin Buyers really have a lot more to consider when laying down nearly $8g's. I did and pulled out for the same reasons. I too need code updates for many of my Sterns in the collection. I hope Stern is listening.

#85 10 years ago

Stern does read this site. They have posted excerpts from here on their press releases.

The new Star trek is a rehash of STTNG. Very disappointed in Ritchie on that level. Lots of proven choices and exciting new competition to spend your 8k on.

#86 10 years ago
Quoted from nailhead:

Stern does read this site. They have posted excerpts from here on their press releases.
The new Star Trek is a rehash of STTNG. Very disappointed in Ritchie on that level. Lots of proven choices and exciting new competition to spend your 8k on.

Have you played the game yet? Although it looks similar it plays nothing like it.

-1
#87 10 years ago
Quoted from nailhead:

Stern does read this site. They have posted excerpts from here on their press releases.
The new Star Trek is a rehash of STTNG. Very disappointed in Ritchie on that level. Lots of proven choices and exciting new competition to spend your 8k on.

Didn't feel like a STTNG at all. But definitely similar to SM like I feared.

#88 10 years ago

No bashing, no envy but I think something huge happen in the pinball world. More than 1 serious player (JJP, MMR). A lots of rumours about next pins TWD after FF. Remakes awareness for investors. Many threads and complains about unfinished codes. Think a lot of people are on the quo status and waiting to make a move. To all those who are in for ST Pro, Premium or LE, i'm pretty sure it's an awesome pin and wish all the fun you guys deserve. Now I'm going back to MET Pro having the time of my life with my son. Cheers

#89 10 years ago

My major concern is the rule set and code going forward. The rule set as it stands is not very interesting. It's fine for location play right now, but I think I'd get very bored of it at home fairly quick. So I'm hanging back and waiting.

I like the shots, sounds, lights and loved the movies. But if I'm spending this kind of coin, the rules need to really interest me. After watching Time-Out Trek make its reappearance on PAPA Tv today, it makes me less likely to bite. The rule set just seems a bit generic for the current standard. I'd love to be compelled to purchase a pro/pre, but it's not happening yet...

#90 10 years ago

OP needs to look up the phrase "penis envy".

i do not think it means what he thinks it means.

0.jpg0.jpg

#91 10 years ago

I think STLE looks cool

But...

Stern has a shit reputation for code, they raised their prices, communication has been piss poor, features were removed & the toys are underwhelming when you consider it's $8K.

I think many people can afford the game, they just choose not to.

I can buy a Mercedes but I prefer having more money lol.

#92 10 years ago

STLE looks good, but ST Pro too !

May be the main competition for Stern will be internal. Except for true fans, most won't see the need for a LE version if the Pro is already very good. And this seems to be the case for a number of recent games (X-men, Metallica...)... less toys also mean less trouble... Even ACDC Pro is a very good game, but the gap with Premium/LE is wider.

I have not played ST Pro enough to rate it. But it will be at least a good pin. Polish the code, improve the crappy animations, etc, and you might get a damn good pin. If I were a Star Trek fan, going for the LE would be a no-brainer and very likely a keeper.

Side note: the Pro version costs here nearly the same as the Premium in the US... Last time I checked ST Pro was listed 5200 euros or more. Damn VAT, transport, customs...

#93 10 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Have you played the game yet? Although it looks similar it plays nothing like it.

Wouldn't open my mouth unless I had.

#94 10 years ago

Anyone else game to bash ST LE after the last week of reports from new owners?

Unknown.jpegUnknown.jpeg
#95 10 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

the toys are underwhelming when you consider it's $8K.

AFM comes to mind , and look what they sell for.

#96 10 years ago

After playing STLE for a couple days, I can see why there are so few toys: speed and flow.
To me, the third flipper and that warp ramp is better than most mini playfields I've ever seen. The Vengeance is amazing, in that it's nearly a whole different game in itself. The "toys" on this thing are the ramps. Fewer interactive toys provides a much faster paced pin with a ton of flow.
Stern removed some of the toys that were on Spider-Man, replacing them with 3 stand-up target banks. Same effect as bashing toys, but this keeps the ball moving. Fast.
STLE has a target and left outlane kicker, right target bank for powering up smart bombs for the Vengeance battle, the third flipper warp ramp, and a large spaceship that fires back at you.
The music, call outs, and lights working together keep things interesting so shooting the ramps again and again trying to make combos is the heart and fun of the game.
Far from a boring, empty playfield with nothing to do.
This game rocks.

#97 10 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

I think STLE looks cool

I can buy a Mercedes but I prefer having more money lol.

I have a Mercedes and you are wise to save your money lol. It's a big piece of crap.

#98 10 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

After playing STLE for a couple days, I can see why there are so few toys: speed and flow.
To me, the third flipper and that warp ramp is better than most mini playfields I've ever seen. The Vengeance is amazing, in that it's nearly a whole different game in itself. The "toys" on this thing are the ramps. Fewer interactive toys provides a much faster paced pin with a ton of flow.
Stern removed some of the toys that were on Spider-Man, replacing them with 3 stand-up target banks. Same effect as bashing toys, but this keeps the ball moving. Fast.
STLE has a target and left outlane kicker, right target bank for powering up smart bombs for the Vengeance battle, the third flipper warp ramp, and a large spaceship that fires back at you.
The music, call outs, and lights working together keep things interesting so shooting the ramps again and again trying to make combos is the heart and fun of the game.
Far from a boring, empty playfield with nothing to do.
This game rocks.

You make a reference to the Ramps being toys? LMAO. You are Stern's ideal customer for sure.

No matter what, for $8K, people expect more ingenuity, not less. Hell, just make a big open playfield with a few ramps, that would be super fast and awesome, right?

#99 10 years ago
Quoted from Aussiepinwiz:

Anyone else game to bash ST LE after the last week of reports from new owners?

I hope everyone who ordered ST LE loves it, sincerely. I may eventually, who knows, but decided to sit this one out until I know the commitment to finishing the code is there.

I do think it's all right for other hobbyists to respectfully share their opinions about what they like don't like about the game. Opinions and perspectives are part of what makes this hobby enjoyable - aside from pure joy of playing the game. That being said, anyone ever see/play a DE ST 25th Anniversary? The game is ok but the back glass is pure genius. I think some of the critiques on "not fully loaded" with toys is fair - at the price point we are now paying. Look at the innovation in the past - DE for crying out loud - and we get excited about hallmark ornaments and a laser pointer? Strobe multiball in AFM still is more of an experience than the star field red laser show.

Again, I may own one in the future but I think it's fair to critique, suggest, and hopefully influence change.

#100 10 years ago
Quoted from Cobray:

You make a reference to the Ramps being toys? LMAO. You are Stern's ideal customer for sure.
No matter what, for $8K, people expect more ingenuity, not less. Hell, just make a big open playfield with a few ramps, that would be super fast and awesome, right?

Ramps are the best thing there is on a pinball machine to me. So satisfying to hit. It's what made ACDC so much fun and seems to be working for StarTrek as well.
I don't care for TSPP. It has toys but is dull to me. Not enough ramps and that really limits flow. You own one so maybe we just appreciate/expect a different experience when playing pinball.

I'm guessing you haven't put much/any time on a STLE yet. That would explain the ignorance.
Two out of the five people I know who purchased STLE did so immediately after playing one at a friends place.
(We had both cancelled our prebooks after being disappointed with the lack of bee features).

If this game was as you described, it wouldn't be getting the amazing initial reviews, would it?

Edit: so odd... You also own AFM. Open playfield, lots of ramps. Aside from bouncing aliens, there's 1 toy.
So where's the fun? Oh yeah: speed and flow, that's where.

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