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(Topic ID: 128707)

Is the Pre-order/Prepay Model FINALLY Dead?


By lowepg

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 75 posts
  • 46 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Ginger
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Topic poll

“Is Prepay still viable in the pinball community?”

  • Yes 65 votes
    41%
  • No 59 votes
    38%
  • Maybe 20 votes
    13%
  • Absolutely not, no way, never..... ok, unless its my fantasy/grail title... 13 votes
    8%

(157 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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There are 75 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

You all know the sordid history here:

SkitB: Failed. hundreds of thousands of $$$$ unaccounted for.
Jpop: Failed. Million+ $$$$ potentially pissed away.
JJP/Bumper: 79 Aussies screwed by a rogue distro, only as fraction made whole. (btw, kudos to JJP for doing so)
DP: Philgate, etc.

Did I miss any?

All these are either directly or indirectly a result of paying for stuff (either fully or substantially) that didn't exist.

Are we done yet?

Add in other potential issues (looming JJP lawsuit.. NOTE- still just allegations, but serious nonetheless) and it seems like the pinball community might have had its fill of this crowdfunding model.

10
#2 5 years ago

People in this hobby will still stupidly sink tons more $$ into preorders if the theme is right. There's been precedent before that hasn't changed it.

#3 5 years ago

Sadly no
The need to have the next awesome next limited edition game fries too many peoples brains

#4 5 years ago

After every meltdown, a thread like this appears.

Then the next shiny new bauble surfaces and everyone ogles it and throws piles of money at it, and completely forgets what happened the last time.

Rinse, repeat.

#5 5 years ago

th.jpeg

#6 5 years ago

JJP will one day unveil JJP #3 Ultra-gold Premium Holofoil edition as an upgrade for preorders and people will preorder it (maybe I will too).

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

After every meltdown, a thread like this appears.
Then the next shiny new bauble surfaces and everyone ogles it and throws piles of money at it, and completely forgets what happened the last time.
Rinse, repeat.

Maybe....

But to be fair, weren't several of these going on at the same time?

What I mean to say is, its not like they all happened in series. I think many people were invested in several of these games before the dominoes started to fall?

#8 5 years ago

But then again , there is not many new guys left
Pinball circus, is there plans to make a second game
Highway, are the building shipping yet?
Homepin, delayed 6 months

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

You all know the sordid history here:
SkitB: Failed. hundreds of thousands of $$$$ unaccounted for.
Jpop: Failed. Million+ $$$$ potentially pissed away.
JJP/Bumper: 79 Aussies screwed by a rogue distro, only as fraction made whole. (btw, kudos to JJP for doing so)
DP: Philgate, etc.
Did I miss any?

Yes.

WOZ
BBB
MMR

Sorry, the pre-pay model ain't going away.

#10 5 years ago

for as many people that slam stern for not being "innovative", they are the only company which is still living by the business model where they do not take deposits. (and have gotten really good about keeping their games a secret until just a few weeks prior to launch

regardless of the nature of the business, we as a society have fallen into this model (kickstarter, etc...) where we're quick to loosen the purse strings and toss our hard earned money in the direction of something unproven and undeveloped with the hopes that it will turn out a-ok. however, if and (when) it doesn't, we only have ourselves to blame.

those with the morals that we were all brought up with (machines, mods, add-ons, etc...) will continue to develop on their own dime and offer up the goods only and only when they are ready for market, taking no money until the finished product is complete and ready to ship.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

those with the morals that we were all brought up with (machines, mods, add-ons, etc...) will continue to develop on their own dime and offer up the goods only and only when they are ready for market, taking no money until the finished product is complete and ready to ship.

this.

#12 5 years ago

After loosing my predator money pre pay is done for me.

#13 5 years ago

I'd only preorder from Stern and JJP ..... yes they have their issues, but at least they can be trusted to produce a game.

#14 5 years ago

It will be attempted again, but will not succeed in any large way again.

-1
#15 5 years ago

No, we're not done yet. There are prepay dollars sitting out there on Hobbit. Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) at risk in fact. Common sense continues to go out the window and history will likely repeat itself. Oh well.

#16 5 years ago

ha ha. Pre-orders are not going away. Looking at Kickstarter, etc - it's the way things seem to be done. I'm over and done with pre-orders for pinball machines...I think(?). However, there is some cool stuff going outside of pinball and some of the same results are being experienced (missed delivery dates, broken promises, etc).

Take for example Marbel Skateboards (electric skateboard) - missed delivery dates, broken promises. Everybody is still waiting for shipment of boards and complaining. Brings back the pain and agony of my MMr pre-order. At least I'm not talking about laying out $8k like I did last July...

Conrad.

edit: Spring is finally here - I want my skateboard now!!!

#17 5 years ago

When the next really cool theme comes down the pipe from a boutique company, people will line up to throw money at it. I cannot fathom why, but you'll see. It'll happen.

#18 5 years ago

I voted NO not dead, but I have never done it and don't ever plan too.

#19 5 years ago

There will always be those gullible people who are shocked when there money is stolen by someone they gave cash to after seeing pretty pictures of a machine someone 'swears' they can make. Those are what I call life lessons.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes.
WOZ
BBB
MMR
Sorry, the pre-pay model ain't going away.

Despite delays, all those games were made & delivered. People who wanted out got refunds. 2015 has brought the double whammy of Shit-Mask and Jflop....games that weren't made and people lost their money. That pretty much kills pre-order, IMO. Guys with factories (JJP, Heighway) still might get some...but buyers' guards are up. Trust must be earned through transparency and payment plans that guarantee refunds (Amex only? I dunno...).

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

There will always be those gullible people who are shocked when there money is stolen by someone they gave cash to after seeing pretty pictures of a machine someone 'swears' they can make. Those are what I call life lessons.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say "stolen" but rather they (any new manufacturer) just did not have the understanding going in of what they were getting into and simply have/had very poor project management skills.

Quoted from jwo825:

When the next really cool theme comes down the pipe from a boutique company, people will line up to throw money at it. I cannot fathom why, but you'll see. It'll happen.

Because they'll offer a rug and chrome trim if you pre-order. Or they'll offer free shipping or a gold colored dragon instead of the "standard" version. They prey on pinball enthusiast''s weaknesses the same way con artists prey on people who think they're going to win the lottery.

#22 5 years ago

Clearly the pre-order model from a new pinball company that has never made a pin is at least close to being dead, if not completely dead.

People will put a bit more faith in a company like Heighway because of their great communication and pictures showing progress, including a big factory with real machines. And a top license obtained from Fox. Still...they have not delivered a pin, so there's still going to be hesitation (I'm not paying for Alien until it's ready to ship).

JJP has delivered a pin obviously. Took a long time, with tons of delays and broken promises. Sadly, Hobbit is already close to 1/2 year late (actually later than that given the first estimates that were given). So even if people have faith that JJP will deliver on a pre-ordered pin (not go out of business), most will now be much less likely to pre-order simply due to the very long wait times (I know people who placed their pre-order pretty much as soon as it was announced, which is well over a year now I believe).

I think many in the hobby will start taking a much more conservative approach when it comes to pre-ordering a pin.

Maybe.

#23 5 years ago

People will always be lured by the potential of owning the first / early / best / limited / rare ...You get the idea....

#24 5 years ago

Not as long as there is an LE version.

#25 5 years ago

Good point.. Pre-order can mean buying it 18months in advance of a schedule that is never going to happen. But it can also mean jumping on the latest stern LE release the second it is announced / haven't played it. I've done both (Xmen and TBL). Currently I don't regret either as was able to sell xmen without losing a ton (some, but so what I had the game to play for 8 months)

21
#26 5 years ago

I preordered two egg mcmuffins this morning. Paid in advance at the first drive-thru window, then waited and picked them up at the next window. I was really nervous about it, given all the drama here on pinside, but I would probably do it again.

#27 5 years ago

nowhere near dead. in fact im putting my money on it growing and becoming the standard through which new machines are purchased.

-1
#28 5 years ago

I for one have solemnly vowed to never prepay again.

Aliens? Love it, will wait and see.

TBL? That's an easy no go for me. Not a fan of the theme.

Spooky's next title? Hoping for a winna!

Jaws? I'd have to prebuy, I helped it along!

#29 5 years ago

I will go through a local distributer but never will I send money direct again, I'll put the minimum deposit down on JJP #3 when announced but at least I know I can get that back 100%. I think Heighway will soon be picked up by a Canadian distributor and most likely Toronto so that will be nice, very doubtful that company will vanish any time soon. I think the big thing for me is that it will have to be a very special theme to get me to buy NIB anyway. The next projected Sterns aren't doing anything for me and I've really embraced the System 11's and Gottlieb System 80's not to mention classics from the early 80's as well. Christ for the price of a NIB Stern LE I can get 3 very nice System 11's and thats tough to beat. Who am I kidding I want then all.

#30 5 years ago

What does a distributor have anything to do with anything? Go talk to bumper amusement victims about distributors.

#31 5 years ago

As long as emotions, rather than logic, drive a financial decision - watch out. Some people just cannot help themselves, and if they make a repeat mistake after THIS year, too bad. No sympathy from me after this year's dual debacles.

#32 5 years ago

I know this is not a scientific poll and it is merely a means to start a discussion, but by creating two "no" options and one "yes" option, you are splitting the "no" votes and virtually guaranteeing that "yes" will have the most responses in a close race.

Source: I live in a hyper-political city and organizations do this all the time.

#33 5 years ago

I am done buying anything NIB period. Pick up on the dump, that's my motto. KISS and TBL will be mine in ~ 4 and 10 months, at a 10% savings.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from AlbanyTim:

I know this is not a scientific poll and it is merely a means to start a discussion, but by creating two "no" options and one "yes" option, you are splitting the "no" votes and virtually guaranteeing that "yes" will have the most responses in a close race.
Source: I live in a hyper-political city and organizations do this all the time.

Wait....not scientific poll?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!

wtf.

Next you're going to try to tell me the pin ratings here aren't valid!!?!?!?!?!?

The fourth choice was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek poke at the people who are NORMALLY sane, but lose their shit and all semblance of common sense when their dream pin is involved....

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Are we done yet?

Well...I prepaid you for the game I bought. Had to wait a whole week to get it. So I guess the model is still alive and well.

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Well...I prepaid you for the game I bought. Had to wait a whole week to get it. So I guess the model is still alive and well.

Sucker.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

What does a distributor have anything to do with anything? Go talk to bumper amusement victims about distributors.

It has a lot to do with it if its a rebutable company, I don't who the hell Bumper Amusements are and that name alone isn't saying much but The Playdium store whom I deal with in Toronto there is no chance of losing you deposit or full paid pre-order. I know not everyone has a secure option, thankfully I do, at least with Stern and JJP and I'm hoping they get Heighway distribution for Canada.

#38 5 years ago

There will always be people that see a dream theme come along, throw all logic out the window, and shout "Take my money!!!" from the rooftops.

-2
#39 5 years ago

Stern has been doing preorder prepay since the LE was introduced. Nothing new and continues to be the case. How many just sent in a check for KISSLE

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

How many just sent in a check for KISSLE

Not me. I'm waiting for the next kiss pinball machine.

#41 5 years ago

Don't forget the people who pre-ordered WOZ and were skipped over for "new money" buyers who got their machines long before people who put their money down early. Why even pre-order a game when it doesn't cement your place in the order on the production line?

I will never pre-order a game years ahead of release that has not even been developed. I would consider paying for a game from a crowd-funded boutique company, but only if the game is fully developed, verified licensed, had playable prototypes in public, is entering production at Stern and is less than 3 months from my front door.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Stern has been doing preorder prepay since the LE was introduced. Nothing new and continues to be the case. How many just sent in a check for KISSLE

This is not even close to how I've understood it. In fact, I thought Stern strictly forbid distributors from taking pre-order dollars on speculation? I thought production had to actually begin with prototypes having been completed? To make a comparison to other pre-order companies like JJP where people were literally putting down money 2.5 years ago (or JPop, 4 years ago??) and still do not have a game is a major stretch. Night and day.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Not me. I'm waiting for the next kiss pinball machine.

#44 5 years ago

I think aspiring pinball makers with lousy business and marketing skills are the ones going down the tubes as collectors get better at sniffing them out.

I suspect future Kickstarter projects (and similar) will need to share their business plans up front, show significant personal investment (a prototype?) and plans for how they will achieve production to satisfy those pre-orders. A reputation of some kind will need to be established so designer and/or company can be checked out.

#45 5 years ago

Preorder is dead for me...other than Aliens, it's dead, oh yeah, and after Full Throttle, then it's dead for me for sure...after I get those games...and maybe TBL, THAT MIGHT BE THE LAST ONE FOR ME.
Unless somebody gets a fake license for Pink Floyd or The Beatles and Zombi Yeti does the art, then I'm back in again. If you announce that, I can PayPal you a deposit in the morning.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Stern has been doing preorder prepay since the LE was introduced. Nothing new and continues to be the case. How many just sent in a check for KISSLE

Not even close to the same thing. There is no payment allowed until the game is announced and the game is announced as it enters production! You will have your game in hand in a matter of weeks not years.

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from keithm:

I think aspiring pinball makers with lousy business and marketing skills are the ones going down the tubes as collectors get better at sniffing them out.

I'd really like to agree with you and WISH this was reality but then ... cough cough, Pintasia?? You have folks actually begging for Pinsiders to give them a chance (the current JPop scenario) and ignore the lack of experience, detailed plans, and answers to critical questions. WHY??

#48 5 years ago

Big difference between prepay and preorder in my opinion, I don't think you are going to see any more of the long term prepay deals anymore, but putting down a small deposit to secure a spot on a game will still appeal to many, including myself.

I started paying for The Hobbit almost a year before I got my WOZ, something that I would NOT do today. This has nothing to do with how I feel about TH or JJP, just how many bad things have happened to the other preorders, I would be spooked. That said though, when Pat Lawlor's game is announced, it looks great and a small deposit will reserve me a spot, I will probably do it, but only that, no long term prepay.

I'm hoping that this is the model that JJP will be able to operate under from game 3 on.

#49 5 years ago

So I want to order a pizza. Do I pre-order? Yes! But I pay the money on arrival. And eat.

-1
#50 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Not even close to the same thing. There is no payment allowed until the game is announced and the game is announced as it enters production! You will have your game in hand in a matter of weeks not years.

You'll have the hardware in a matter of weeks. It will still be years before you have the finished product.

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