(Topic ID: 294947)

Is the pinwiki wrong, or am I about the TIP-36c?

By Acronymicon

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

pasted_image (resized).png
crispy (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
#1 3 years ago

After a seemingly successful playfield swap I had the upper right flipper on my NGG smoking and burn its label a bit, and after some research I figured something may have failed at its transistors.

Using pinwiki I read the following:

>A quick check of the TIP-102s on the driver board can save time. Set your DMM to "continuity check". Place the black lead of your DMM on board ground. Touch >the tab of each TIP-102. If the meter indicates continuity, then that TIP-102 is shorted. This quick test works only with TIP-102s and with TIP-36c transistors >since the tab of a TIP-36c is NOT connected to ground.

Using this information I checked and it seems like all of my 36c's are shorting when measured to the ground braid. The pin out on the data sheet shows the middle leg being the collector, and in the schematic the middle leg goes to ground.

I have a new 36c here and the old one out of the board and I cant find a whole lot of difference testing them against each other.

I figure I should replace all the transistors associated with the aforementioned smoking flipper, so as not to potentially damage my new coil, but am I wrong in thinking the wiki meant to say:

>This quick test works only with TIP-102s and >NOT< with TIP-36c transistors

Or where am I going wrong in my thinking here? Any guidance would be appreciated.

#2 3 years ago

A shorted transistor shouldn't smoke up a coil I don't think so. Anything is possible, depending on exactly what is shorted, but that shouldn't be common. If the transistor is shorted, then the coil should be always activated, but it shouldn't burn it.. But like I said, anything is possible..

You swapped the playfield, are you 100% sure every connector is connected properly? Especially those related to that flipper? Did you by accident skip a pin when connecting a connector? Or pinch a wire somewhere while re-installing the playfield? Measure continuity between the coil and the chassis / ground, is it shorted? Unplug the connector from the board and measure again for a short? Measure the pins of the connector on the board to ground, any shorts there?

Compare the measurements on each pin at the connector, does the one that controls that flipper differ from other flippers?

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Roamin:

A shorted transistor shouldn't smoke up a coil I don't think so. Anything is possible, depending on exactly what is shorted, but that shouldn't be common. If the transistor is shorted, then the coil should be always activated, but it shouldn't burn it.. But like I said, anything is possible..

If the coil stays activated then burning up is exactly what will happen

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from Roamin:

A shorted transistor shouldn't smoke up a coil

If the transistor is shorted to ground, as soon as the board is powered up the associated coil activates. It starts smoking soon after that.

#5 3 years ago

At first my connections were wrong, I had the outside wires on said flipper coil reversed, I found that out after a series of fuses associated with that flipper circuit were blowing.

Why I figured it might be the transistors was after fixing the wiring and replacing the fuses the coil started to 420. Or maybe the diodes on the coil were damaged?

What I dont understand is why didnt the fuse blow again to protect the coil?

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Acronymicon:

What I dont understand is why didnt the fuse blow again to protect the coil?

Don't over think it. The coil fried to protect the fuse.

Things don't always go according to plan.

LTG : )

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from Acronymicon:

This quick test works only with TIP-102s and with TIP-36c transistors >since the tab of a TIP-36c is NOT connected to ground.

This is a very good question; to answer this you need to understand a few basic facts.

1) The Center pin (pin 2) of both TO-220 and TO-247 packages is connected to the transistors tab.
2) TIP102 are Darlington transistors, and the pinouts are in alphabetical order (BCE) 1) Base 2) Collector 3) Emitter
3) TIP36Cs are Complementary power transistors with pin layouts in alphabetical order (BCE) 1) Base 2) Collector 3) Emitter

Now lets take a look at your application:
In the NGG manual there are a couple errors to make the connection point questionable.
On both Pages 3-11 (flipper Circuit diagram) and pages 3-5 (Solenoid/Flasher Table) the power transistor is listed as Q84 (J120-6) and the Hold transistor is listed as Q86 (J120-4); however, if you look at the Power Driver board wire list, it shows UR Flipper Hold as J120-5 and and UR Flipper power as J120-6 which is incorrect. I always side with the schematics when there is questionable connection points which shows both J120-5 AND J120-6 as Power and J120-4 as hold.

The stuff that really matters:
In the WPC95 schematics, the TIP102s Emitter (pin 3) is tied to ground and the collector (pin2) is connected to the coil; therefore any continuity between ground and the center tab means the coil connected to the device will be on.
In the WPC95 schematics, the TIP36Cs Emitter (pin3) is tied to the coil and the collector (pin2) is tied to ground; therefore any continuity between ground and the center tab only means the transistor is connected to the circuit as the tab should be at ground potential.

So what does all this mean? It means the tab of the TIP36C is tied to ground making this an invalid test.

What documents were used in this post?
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Edits: Edited Power and hold circuits for clarification, had misidentified a pin 5 and 6 in one of the drawings due to low resolution schematics.
To do list: make make own high resolution scans of my WPC95 schematics.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from Acronymicon:

At first my connections were wrong, I had the outside wires on said flipper coil reversed, I found that out after a series of fuses associated with that flipper circuit were blowing.

This was my first assumption but I overthink everything and it took me a half hour to get all the documents together to answer the "Why?" Conflicting connection information in the specific game manual never helps either.

If you read my post and understood it you now know more than most pinball owners ever wanted to know.

#9 3 years ago

TIL the slamramp is the 4th flipper. Never had to troubleshoot so never thought about it, but it makes sense based on game operation.

Not the first to do so however, JM uses 3rd and 4th flippers for diverters.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

TIL the slamramp is the 4th flipper. Never had to troubleshoot so never thought about it, but it makes sense based on game operation.

Not the first to do so however, JM uses 3rd and 4th flippers for diverters.

Interesting information along these same lines ... STTNG has no 4th flipper circuit connection but uses the Flipper 4 EOS switch circuit on the Fliptronics board for the spinner! How crazy is that?

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

the tab of the TIP36C is tied to ground making this an invalid test.

Quoted from Acronymicon:

This quick test works only with TIP-102s and with TIP-36c transistors >since the tab of a TIP-36c is NOT connected to ground.

Paging a Pinwiki editor. ForceFlow , ChrisHibler can we get https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Transistor_.22Quick_Check.22 updated?

#12 3 years ago

You are a saint pinguy, thanks a bunch for the effort.

#13 3 years ago

I'm helping someone with a BSD where the right Mist gate won't stay open. Cycles up and down and sometimes blocks the ball from entering the right pocket. Throws lots of errors and disables normal Mist MB. Coil is driven by the Fliptronics board. Put in a known good Fliptronics board and the gate works perfectly.

Board looks fine, but I haven't dug into it. Borderline Tip102 or Tip36 is my guess. They don't always short to ground when they fail.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

STTNG has no 4th flipper circuit connection but uses the Flipper 4 EOS switch circuit on the Fliptronics board for the spinner! How crazy is that?

Two reasons come to mind.

  1. All switches used in the (regular) 8x8 switch matrix.
  2. Direct switch may have a slightly faster and consistent response than a switch in the matrix.

Indiana Jones center bank drop targets are direct switches. Leads me to concluded it's probably reason #1.

Quoted from phishrace:

Put in a known good Fliptronics board and the gate works perfectly.

I believe there is a thread about the 100uF@100V capacitor. Williams removed it in later production of the boards (presumably to cut cost). The thread talks about installing the capacitor in Fliptronic board. The power board has one on the 50VDC that it generates. The Fliptronic board may or may not have it as the component is not always installed. If someone swapped the board from a later production game this may contribute to the problem (according to the thread).

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

wo reasons come to mind.

All switches used in the (regular) 8x8 switch matrix.
Direct switch may have a slightly faster and consistent response than a switch in the matrix.
Indiana Jones center bank drop targets are direct switches. Leads me to concluded it's probably reason #1.

Both are very good reasons and I would concur with option 1; without counting the EOS or direct ground switches STTNG has 69 switches.

#16 3 years ago

I notice further down in the Pinwiki at https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Coil_Fails_to_Work
in paragraph 2 it says, “ With the game powered on, and a short length of wire stripped on both ends, touch one end of the wire to the ground braid in the head. Touch the other end of the wire BRIEFLY to the tab of the associated TIP-102. If the coil pulls in, then the path to ground has been proven and the failure is likely the TIP-102 itself. NOTE: This test can be performed ONLY when a TIP-102 is the drive transistor. TIP-36c transistors are configured differently. The tab of a TIP-36c is not connected in the same way internally.”

Might need a change there too?

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

The tab of a TIP-36c is not connected in the same way internally.”

Yes this should read "The tab of a TIP-36c is not connected in the same way externally."

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Don't over think it. The coil fried to protect the fuse.
Things don't always go according to plan.
LTG : )

RIP noble coil

https://imgproxy.pinside.com/j9W-O3RL8k_FIgJPlTjfBuRdoZkHoWDDcqjm3upko1I/rs:fit:2048:2048/q:70/aHR0cHM6Ly9vLnBpbnNpZGUuY29tLzcvNmUvZDkvNzZlZDkxMWIzZDM1YzFmYmRiNWI4MjEwZWIxNGY3MmViYWQ1ZDcxMS5qcGc

I was going to cut the diode out to test it, but I guess that isnt necessary.

crispy (resized).jpgcrispy (resized).jpg
#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Acronymicon:

At first my connections were wrong, I had the outside wires on said flipper coil reversed, I found that out after a series of fuses associated with that flipper circuit were blowing.

This is very concerning as reversing the outside wires would forward bias both the primary and secondary flyback diodes all the time and your 50V is just just waiting for a path of destruction.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Based on an assumption that WPC95 flipper control and WPC89 flipper control works the same way, as soon as the CPU activates the flipper coil, BOTH the Power and Hold transistors energize and would short your 50V right through both transistors to ground; this would allow a destructive amount of current to flow through these two components and may have causes some board damage. The destruction of the one coil diode shown in your picture is actually a good thing as it would have broke the short circuit by forcing the current to flow through the coil windings instead of around it.

You definitely want to either test and or replace both your drive your drive transistors, the best way to check this is as follows:

If the board is on your bench check for continuity between any ground point and on the board and to J120-4 and J120-6, continuity here would indicate a shorted transistor.

If the board is installed in the game you could perform the same test as above by removing J119 and J120 but you can use any ground point that's easy to access for checking between J120-4 and J120-6 to ground. If you do this check with the game powered on you should keep the coin door open or remove the 50V fuse as a precaution.

#20 3 years ago

Thanks for the advice, sir! I replaced all three associated transistors just in case and everything is working great.

#21 3 years ago

Thanks for the page @yeoldpinplayer, Acronymicon and @pin_guy.
I've updated/corrected the above two entrys.

I still have in the back of my mind that I need to review TIP-36c testing procedure. I had a discussion ages ago with terryb IIRC, about this.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

I've updated/corrected the above two entrys.

I still have in the back of my mind that I need to review TIP-36c testing procedure. I had a discussion ages ago with terryb IIRC, about this.

ChrisHibler Thank you for all your efforts in maintaining this page, it's a great resource for folks working on their pins and it provided with just the right amount of detail that most can understand it and also more detailed information for those of us that want this kind of information.

3 weeks later
#23 3 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Thanks for the page YeOldPinPlayer, Acronymicon and Pin_Guy.
I've updated/corrected the above two entrys.
I still have in the back of my mind that I need to review TIP-36c testing procedure. I had a discussion ages ago with terryb IIRC, about this.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

TerryB definitely has a different procedure for testing TIP-36c. I've found some chips that will pass the test shown on pinwiki using red on the center leg only, but others that don't. I believe TerryB's process is actually correct:

PNP transistors, left lead is base (i.e. – TIP36C and TIP42)*

Put the DMM’s black lead on the left leg of the transistor.
Test to the middle leg and the right leg with the red lead.
You should get a reading between .3 – .9 volts on each (the two reading should be about the same).
Put the red lead on the left leg of the transistor.
Test to the middle leg and the right leg with the black lead.
Your DMM should read open on each.
Test across the middle and right legs, you should get an open reading.
Reverse leads on the middle and right legs, you should get an open reading.

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from jrobinso99:

Test to the middle leg and the right leg with the red lead.
You should get a reading between .3 – .9 volts

Ohms? Do you have a link to the procedure?

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
5,100
Machine - For Sale
Tacoma, WA
$ 119.99
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
FlyLand Designs
 
$ 449.00
Cabinet - Decals
Mircoplayfields
 
$ 84.99
Cabinet - Decals
FlyLand Designs
 
$ 449.00
Cabinet - Decals
Mircoplayfields
 
From: $ 25.00
Playfield - Decals
Pinball Invasion
 
$ 399.00
Cabinet - Decals
Mircoplayfields
 
$ 1.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Alley
 
From: $ 27.00
Boards
KAHR.US Circuits
 
$ 9.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Aurora, CO
$ 89.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 45.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 219.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Lit Frames
 
6,000
Machine - For Sale
Happy Valley, OR
$ 29.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Shark
 
$ 37.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
 
$ 89.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 125.00
Boards
Pinball Haus
 
$ 225.00
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
FlyLand Designs
 
4,700
Machine - For Sale
Canaan, ME
$ 200.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
 

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.