They're on to the next game already, as the saying goes lovem and leave them. I'm sure they hate the fact that someone didn't cower in fear, from their fanboys, who gang up on you for thinking for yourself. Yes they read this website, they see the complaints, they see the praise and yes the count the dollars and figure out how they can make games cheaper than the last one. Or that is how is appears! Here is hoping their next game is a home run because I'm not against Stern I like some of their games. I just don't like the current direction of not trying to be innovative, original, different, and over the top. I want them to be but we'll see.

Also I think this community should demand their next game not ship until such time as the code is ready to go DAY ONE! JJP does it why can't they?

Ha, video modes, yeah! Last one the sword play one in GoT IIRC, that one was not a good argument for having a video mode. You know what's also missing a unique ball save graphics. Stern has been using the same ball save screen for the last dozen games. I was reminded of it when playing Demo Man the other day, cool callout and graphics.

Wow this thread is still going seems to me the people keeping this thread going are whats LAME

Stern's cost cutting on the production line:

Some of you are going to call it cheap. For the ramps, I see innovation. There would have been in times past where the two stainless steel ramps would have been welded together.

To weld the 3 pieces that make up the ramps would have required a jig to have been built. Someone would have had to load the parts in the jig and lay down the weld beads. The welded unit would need to be checked for warping---after it cooled down.

Instead of welding the ramps, Stern is using a "twisted tab" method of assembly. I do not know what the industry calls this but it looks like twisted tabs so that's what I call it.

Three ramp pieces are cut and profiled on whatever machine Stern decided to use. Two pieces will need to be roll formed. After that, an assembly worked can---more or less---slap the three pieces together and twist the tabs and the ramp is ready to install.

I would assume there was a substantial cost savings by replacing the welding with the tabs.

No muss. No fuss. I like it.

IMG_1298 (resized).JPG

IMG_1297 (resized).JPG

Because it's an expensive novelty that's kinda fun once, but not worth the time or money to revisit. Flipper pinball just doesn't work vertically.

Because they suck, and if I wanted a video game I'd play one. Star Wars has a non-shitty one, but I'd rather be playing pinball.

Looks good, but labeling this as "innovation"? Meh.

I'd prefer to see innovations that make games more fun. I've had so many games over the years and fixing broken welds hasn't been a burden (in term of cost of ownership). On the rare occasion it's been a problem, Mantis usually has a low cost solution that fixed the flawed mech/weld.

Wonder if anyone is doing R&D on non-wood PF's. I realize it's sacrilege, however it would be cool to have lighter, more resilient PF's. The wood being used for PF's isn't what it use to be.

I wonser this a lot. A couple of times I have brought up a product called Richlite. It is solid as a rock. Can be sawed, drilled, machined, glued, and painted on. It is an epoxy impregnated paper pressed at high pressure.

I used to work with the stuff when I was making form dies in the aircraft industry. It is fantastic to work with.

It is being used on guitar fretboards. I think it would be worthy of research for the top layer of a pin play field.

https://richlite.com/

Yeah it is, I debated and won. U just don't want to hear it as I never heard any response to my points.

This speaks volumes sir. I owned TSPP for quite a while and at that same price I'm taking BK3 all day long. Better theme for me, faster and more challenging gameplay, Music and SFX well nuff said. Now my view doesn't apply to urs and "everyone else" where somehow u know what they are thinking but u see thats the whole point, just because u think it does it make it so.

This same line again, let me tell ya I've played many EM's that brought no joy at all.

Wow, I'm all for video modes but pinball has never exceled in that field. Good video modes ok, what we have been given thus far, not so much.

Well we finally have reached a common ground. Love pinball but I've never been to a show nor have any desire to meet the designers.

Ahhh because they suck. Good day sir, I said good day.

Dwight did a great job with SW and it was finalized within a reasonable time frame. Who knows what goes on internally at Stern but it's hard to believe that Stern has given Dwight time and direction to do another pass on GB and he has simply refused. Seems more likely that they just keep putting him on other assignments.

Looks amazing! Definitely worthy of research...looks lighter and stronger than wood!

Wouldn't be surprised if there would be no need for a "clear coat".

The new "Physical" enhancement is even lamer. Learn how to nudge better and it wouldn't be a problem.

It is not lighter than wood. Where wood has a cellular structure (depending on the wood: think oak compared to balsa wood) the Richlite is highly compressed and very dense. Where some woods can be laminated for spring action, such as a compound bow, I don't think Richlite can take spring like stresses. But I really do not know. What I can reasonably consider is that weight considerations would only allow for the top ply of a play wood play field to be Richlite. A 1/2 " thick piece of Richlite the same size as a play field would be more comfortable for two people move than just one person.

But since it is a dense material, I think it would make a great surface for a rolling ball.

And there is always the possibility that Stern has already looked into it and saw things that made it not a good candidate for a play field.

Yeah, like cost. It is pretty obvious that the bean counters have complete authority at Stern.

Stern does have a partner. You could say they are bean counters. Now, it makes sense that Stern is acting a little bit like Apple Computer.

https://sternpinball.com/about/

"In the fall of 2009, Stern Pinball partnered with an affiliate of Hagerty Peterson & Co., LLC (‘HP”), a private equity investment firm, to help the company weather the Great Recession and prepare for its next phase of growth. A team led by Dave Peterson, Managing Director of HP, helped the company strengthen its operations and financial condition, expand its product offering and enter new markets."

Dude your seeing things, you couldn't beat me in a debate if your life depended on it. Simpsons Pinball party cost about 4k brand new in box, there wasn't a 9k version. Black Knight costs over double that a Simpsons from back in the day, and it gives 1/10th the playfield fun! If you disagree with that you have brain damage! LOL

Beatles there isn't anything there, and they asked up to 25k or 8k for the cheapest game. HOW EXACTLY? My point isn't about video modes, or mini games in the backglass, its about doing something anything other than repeating the same thing over and over again and sayings its new. Batman 66 is the same as Batman Dark Knight, Beatles is Seawitch, Munsters is well everyone has an opinion on what it copied. I'm saying think outside the box, try something different, change it up, and in Black Knight's case, the most barron playfield in HISTORY, with probably the worst backglass art I've ever seen, without the license fee for say Ghostbusters, why didn't they go all out? So ask more than ever, but give the least ever. How does that work exactly?

When you ask up to 9k for the game, and Wonka LE is 9500 how can you honestly without laughing say the BK is worth it? THERE IS JUST NO WAY!

You can't explain it not with a straight face you can't.

POTC LE was $9500 again just 500 over BK LE, so we'll say the same price, again how exactly is that right? You didn't explain anything.

:facepalm:
Not a chance in hell of that... it is a rehash of a ripoff artist... so do you really think that it's going to be amazing?
If so; there some land I have for sale in South Florida

I think you left out a part of my post, I'm saying I hope Deep Root does something amazing and I do. Lets go back to the movie Highlander, where there can only be ONE! If pinball dies off to some degree leaving only one pinball company standing, lets hope its because every single pinball company tries to kill themselves beating everyone else. In other words they add features, go all out with new tech, create the next level, and each company tries to out do the next to a point where there is ONLY ONE!

Stern clearly don't care about releasing a game with code DONE before they ship, they don't seem to care if they re-use the same playfield 500 times, and obviously they don't care about creating a world under the glass anymore as they did with Simpsons, or give this industry the next Adams Family? They're like a broken record, and btw I understand fully. They don't feel any pressure from the competition and hopefully that is yet.

So I'm hoping JJP starts to make 2 to 3 games a year, or deep root releases some major innovations because I want Stern to go back to their roots of trying to impress with pinball, back when hardly anyone bought them so they worked harder to stay in the game.

I want to see the next Twilight Zone or something. Stern can do it if they put in the effort! Apparently it will only happen if another company puts the screws to them. So I'm hoping for Deep Root or JJP to really kick some ass! This will only make Stern better!

I get it... you hope. Just like the Alien people did... and the TBL people did. Hopefully; you aren't putting any money down on them.
I hope you're right... once DR get's past their stupid "hero" phase and kick that rip-off artist to the curb... then yeah; sure maybe they'll be worth something one day.

JJP is a lost cause. Weird titles. Slow manufacturing. Questionable management. Special edition remakes.
That said; maybe they'll prosper under new management some day.

I would crush you into a fine powder sir.

What? I did explain it. U go by BOM and resale value, I go by theme and fun factor. If WWonka was 4K as is I wouldn't buy it over an regurlar priced BK3 pro. Now I need you to talk me out of it lets just say. A theme I really like vs one that does nothing for me, gameplay that scratches me right where I itch and gameplay that for me is only great if I'm trying to jump start a vomit. Now I'm glad JJP made it, lots of folk love the theme and no doubt the gameplay so all good. What I surmise is that u think someone who buys anything that doesn't fall into ur justifiable value to dollar ratio is lying to themselves. Anyway lets debate.

I would debate you on any topic any time any where ... it would get set up and you wouldn't show.

It goes to show just how badly I would crush you without actually any effort at all. LOL

Dude I'm going to get real for you here... you just said you wouldn't buy a Wonka even if it was 4k, now that is just the single dumbest thing I've heard all week and honestly you've said some other really dumb things. Okay let me get this straight there are people lined up out the door to buy this game, you get the opportunity some how to buy one for 4k you could resell that game 2 minutes later and make a 2500 or more profit and you wouldn't do that? Now that is really dumb! I hate to break the bad news to you but the Wonka games that just got shipped are 7500, LE are 9500 and CE are 12,500. You didn't specify which Wonka game you could buy for 4k, but no matter you'd have a small fortune reselling that game. You wouldn't do that... holy cow! No I can't debate you because it just wouldn't be fair to you, your family and friends. It would just be way to embarrassing for you!

Let's go one further, WOZ still sells in the 8500 range, POTC is now selling for $1000 MORE than it was brand new, and you wouldn't take a Wonka to at the very least to resell?

If you know anyone selling a Wonka for 4k I'll buy them all... and lastly so you understand if you're actually capable I'm not saying BK isn't fun for you, or the other hundred or two who bought the game. I think you're totally missing my point.

My point is the game costs $5799 to $9000.00. The question is did Stern put enough into this game that warrants that kind of price? There is only one logical answer NO!

Lastly, I understand you hate JJP that much is clear, but I don't hate Stern. What I don't like is Stern not trying to advance the industry, add more features, more tech, trying to do something totally original, or at the very least get back to trying to really impress people both pinsiders and casual players with their game features, toys, creativity.

They can do it because they've done it in the past. Its time for them to blow away the industry I hope for that... BK is an epic fail from that perspective because there is very little put into the game itself.

I really feel Stern probably told Steve, no you can't do that, nope not that either, cut cost, cut costs, because we're afraid a non-licensed theme won't sell.

BTW, they're right because its not selling like even Munsters... but honestly we'd never know if it would have exploded if they actually tried to create a game as good as MM with that kind of detail. So since you probably cut the costs of the game to the bone CHARGE LESS!

U should read ur own posts more and if we go by up/down votes on comments seems you might be the dumb one fella. Not sure if u noticed but with the exception of a few JJP fanboys not too many pinsiders are agreeing with ur views on this. Point Hazoff.

Oh I'd show, and my outfit for that event would be the stuff of legend. I would wear a hat so large it would be wearing its own hat. Point Hazoff.

Yeah I would that wasn't the point, I would sell it for profit. Is the level ur playing on that you think I can't grasp the difficult concept u have put forth that buying an expensive item cheap and selling for big profit is the smart move? Point Hazoff

Rinse and repeat, more genius. Because Stern didn't put enough in ur mind into this game the value isn't there and its fact. Let me ask u this what is ur formula for value when it comes to pinball? Point Hazoff

Wow, ur making this real easy. I don't hate JJP hope to own one if they make something I like but up till now I haven't been able to get into any of the themes, which is important to me. Does that matter in terms of value? Point Hazoff

Who gives a shit. Point and match. I can't believe I just used scoring from tennis for this.

Always the same, if I say I like a certain Stern game there are guys like drfrightener that call me a JJP hater. If I say I like a JJP game, I am a Stern hater. You all can go on and on with this.

I do understand that for drfrightener pinball games are like attractions. That should deliver a good show. But for me a game should also deliver a good fight after hours of playing it over and over again. I don't believe that anyone would go to his attractions as often as I played my star wars game. And its's still a thrill and fun to play it. For me the value of a pinball game could not be measured with it's BoM. It's for one part about the gameplay and the other part is the artistic effort they put into it. You can't measure this and people have different taste.
The ticket for an Arch Enemy concert is way cheaper than a Ed Shearen concert, but even if they would be sold for the same prize. I would value the Arch Enemy ticket way higher. Case that's my kind of music. And it's the same with Pinball machines. I would always pay the same or more for a Stern BK than for a Wonka. Cause I like the theme, art, music and gameplay way more. Sure I would love to pay less. ;P But I would never buy a game cause of the BoM.

Drfrighter always brings JJP in this discussion. I had almost all JJP games. And it just is not true that they bring out the games with finished code. If I think about the WoZ I had and the many many updates it took to finaly let this game shine. Or how long I had to wait that the hobbit was the game it now is. And my PotC is still not finished. If someone says other things he is the fanboy.

I will never sell my hobbit, it is a fantastic game. And has a great BoM. But it is not the game that I play the most. SW, Iron Maiden and AC/DC are getting way more plays by me. And I am thinking about selling my JJP PotC also it has the greatest BoM of all my games. I just don't like the game concept as much as I thought I would. BoM has nothing to to with how often I play my games.

Oh god I start to write almost as much as drfrightener, before I come to the point I like to say. And that is about the Black Knight toy. There are other toys with more BoM. But I still think the BK is one of the best toys ever created. And that is cause it's a perfect mix between interaction on the gameplay, and a great show. I had a metallica le and played it a lot, it has many cool toys and all are toys that bring a good show effect into the game. But after a while they became getting old for me. The electric chair effect is great, but seeing it over and over again got lame for me. Smaug in Hobbit now is great, but it took JJP many many updates to bring him to life. The BK is a toy that fights you. It is a challenge. It's taunting and menacing and it delivers not only a show, it acts with the ball in different ways and it is DANGEROUS!!! And it's thrilling to shoot and I don't see it's getting old. That makes a good toy imo.

It's boring when Drfrightener wants to make a point that Munsters sells better and so it must be a better game? And why is he telling us this over and over? He wants to sell BK and doesn't get his money back so it's a bad game? We can talk about hours about this and we all are having different minds about it. But why don't we talk about the title of this: Is the BK a toy lame? And I say no!!! Please tell me what do you think are better toys in pinball than the BK?

Like it or not, this probably saved the company. That partnership led to Stern developing the 3-tiered system of Pro/Premium/LE which finally got Gary Stern to recognize that the home market crowd was worth catering to. The higher margins on the top tier models gave them more profit and kept the company afloat.

Now I will support the argument that they have since gone too far with how bare-bones their Pro models are, and how "Premium/LE" models are not exactly a good value proposition (and are closer to what all the standard models used to be prior to the change), but apparently the company was at risk at going under before the partnership. You can read more about this in the book "Pinball Wizards" by Adam Ruben.

I am really enjoying my Black Knight LE, play it a lot and really enjoy it. It's worth every penny of the $9000 to me. BUT Please, no one try to give that Doctor Fright one cause he doesn't like it...….

Its the value damn it, can't u see that? I mean its a fact Jack. Put a BKSORLE next to Wonka and its obvious isn't it. Wonka is better cause it has the value. I mean r u out of ur tree sir.

Why do you bother with that pinhead

If it wasn't for pinheads like that this site would lose 90% of its appeal. Its my duty both here and in everyday life to rebutt and destroy the weak minded who tend to know less about the facts of their own side of the arguement they propose than I do and thats where the real fun begins, whether it be pinball or religion or politics, history, space, nature which am I well versed abroad its one of the great joys in life. Let them get away with nothing and they won't, not on my watch. Good times. watch and u will see he will regurgitate the same garbage over and over with nothing more to say, "Value isn't there and thats a fact" brilliant.

this thread is painful to read .... a pissing contest wasting Pinside resources

I bought a BK3 and don't give two sh!ts about what anyone thinks of the game (my money, my choice). Its like the annoying morons at the blackjack tables who bitch about how to play your money. I think both Stern and JJP know what they are doing and are handling their games and pricing fine. If someone can do better, maybe they can startup their own company and make games like Thunderbirds (oh wait...error), maybe make a game like Alien (oh wait...error), make a game like Magic Girl (oh wait...error), make a game like Predator (oh wait...error), make a game like Big Lebowski (oh wait...error)

wasting resources? come on. what else is there to discuss, how to change something that can't be changed? Its was over a long time ago in this thread and that would have been a good time to stop reading, its gone in the only direction it could. The whole thread is shit. Is the toy lame, what other possible reason is there for this thread than for us well known jackasses to get into pissing contests? Look, me and you are about to have one. and I've been drinking alot of apple juice today. U will lose, don't worry its boring me now so I let u get back to those valuable resources here on pinside.
you-will-lose (resized).jpg

Please let's get real; This is a clown puked nightmare you're trying to sell on your website for 5K. I have no idea why you think you know anything aboot pricing.
Dipshit.

haha (resized).jpg

Oh snap.

I wish Stern and other companies read these forums more to get ideas and see what we liked or disliked, I mean most restaurants read reviews and actually care about what people say on trip advisor, some not as well. Of course can’t please everyone but free feedback both good and bad should be encouraging to a certain degree.

You must be kidding people say we want more toys Stern gives you the Black Night yet hear we are Pinside is a bitch fest.A few years back people cried we want hand drawn art no more drag and drop crap well the first hand drawn game "GOT" had its art package trashed

If they are reading here, then here's my request ...... FAST SCORING IN EVERY GAME! It's an easy enough mode to do since tons of games have had it in the past, but I love that mode and think every game should have it (hell, make it a setting to turn on or off if people don't like it)

I know Stern reads and listens as I bitched about GotG starting in a mode (I think a player needs to earn a mode, not given one at the start of a game). I suggested a setting to do this. Sure enough, it appeared in a code update. Little things like these make me happy and continue to buy some Stern games (not all but some like BK3). Now it could have already been scheduled to be done or maybe 100 people also requested it, but either way it was done.

Exactly. They gave us a lame toy, as they have been want to do lately. Really like the LE gameplay, but I voted lame in the poll.

So did stern win or did JJP win? Surely this thread has finally settled it.

A guy walks into a bar, and asks whether the toy in the pinball machine is lame, and

ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.

-mof

New Stern machines are GARBAGE!!
Too bad some pinsiders are justifying, and accepting that this BS is now normal.

I love how Stern posts that a design flaw fix is an "enhancement" on LE models for BKSOR

Screenshot_20190626-144132 (resized).png

This being what JJP fans are saying "If it was built in Jan, stuff was bolted on when the playfield was still too soft, so you're likely in the same boat as everyone else. I wouldn't worry about it. Just throw some cliffies on it and play it, and buy the half price safety playfield you can let cure for a year or years until you use it and it will be plenty hard by then." the win goes to stern LOL

Let me make a final point here... some of you stern fanboys get your feathers ruffled if someone even points out even the most minor of flaws. I’m not against Stern or the Black Knight, some of you goofs got this all wrong. I’m merely pointing out that Stern is asking 9k for this game, and they asked a reported 25k for Beatles. I’m asking how and why?

You say is this a lame toy? I’m saying what toys? Did you mean the two silly see thru plastic things? I look back at Simpsons one version, one price, with upper play field, with all the toys, all the cool things that bring you into the Simpsons World. Time has judged Simpsons ... its still worth in many cases 5k plus, its in hot demand, and its one of the highest rated games on this site. All facts.

Why could stern put that much effort into a game that only 10 years ago was half the price of this new BK LE??? Explain?

My complaint is about how Barron the bK is because we can all at least admit that one fact. Why couldn’t this game had been a one price, one version game where all of them have an upper play field. The first two black knights are all the same one model for everyone?

So you offer a game with virtually nothing under the glass, but you want double the money from some of your best games. I’m merely calling them out for not putting in the effort to make each game feel like an original piece of art and point out it seems they’re getting cheaper with each new game.

While on the other hand American Pinball did appear to put everything including the kitchen sink into Octoberfest, Wonka looks like a magical joyride into that World, I’m just looking for Stern the leader to act like a leader.

Release your games with code ready to go, create the next generation of Simpsons, and LOTR. And lastly start trying new things, by adding features we haven’t seen before. In other words stop counting pennies and start hitting home runs.

In the end all games are judged over time, there is a common thing around here where new games automatically get into the top 10 with ratings then slowly fall. Pirates from JJP started really low and ended up in the top 10. All games need time to marinate.

We should come back to this conversation in 2 years and see what the value of this game is at that point. No pinball game can truly be evaluated until a long time passes.

Now lets really discuss just how dumb some people are on this website, and how much FALSE information they spread. The person known as ‘THELAW” called me a dipshit, btw that hurt my feelings. I’m so sad.

Anyway he posted that I’m trying to sell a Terminator 2 for $5,000.00. FALSE and 17 of you believed him and upvoted his posting FALSE information.

The website clearly says $3995.00 so he’s WRONG by $1005.00.

1). The game is flawless its perfect its a high end collector version not a nick not a scratch.

2). It has a 400.00 color screen.

3). The game has been given a two stage powder coating.

4). All the toys inside the game where replaced with real metal collecable toys, plus really cool mods added

5) Sideblade art added, all LED, shopped, everything done. Oh yeah Pinsound added as well. C’mon!

Take away the color screen you’re back down to $3500 for a powder coated, mint condition might be the best one you’ve ever seen.

But I’m the idiot who don’t know what a game is worth, this clown can’t even read!!!

I’m calling THE LAW out as a part of the FAKE NEWS MEDIA. The pinball company has the same game for sale on their website for $5499 and I’m asking $3995 for one that is PERFECT with powder coating, color screen, and more.

Some of the people on this website are just LIARS! End of story!

If anything, aftermarket powdercoating subtracts value from most games, just like clown puke GI. The majority of people don't want their machines to look like what a 16 year old does to his Honda Civic.

Why did you buy your BK Premium? How many times have you played it to judge it?

Cause you list this game in your collection even before it shipped. And you gave bad reviews about this game so I am just asking why you got it when you don't like it and how you got it. Or could it be that you are one of the people who is a liar?

i think you should speak for yourself. You didn’t poll most people you speak for yourself. I go to powder coating places and they tell me pinball guys are in there every week. I think the games look better powder coated, and some like you might think different. But if powder coating is so bad why is Stern jacking up the price of games that do have powder coating??? People who want collector looking games are paying a lot more for games that are powder coated.

You may not fit into that category and its fine nothing wrong with that. I think all classic cars should be painted back original bone stock, other people think you should point murals of skulls on their car like Counting cars tv show does... I am not a fan of that. Clearly others are.

What some of the people on this website need to wrap their head around is they’re not the industry. The industry is made up of multiple different segments including high end collectors who only seek out the nicest of the nice. You on the other hand might be a tournament player... you know how many tournament players i’ve Talked to who will tell me sideblade art is a waste of money.

Who cares about the color screen you don’t look at it when you’re playing, blah, blah. THere are more than one kind of person who buys pinballs.

I myself couldn’t win a pinball tournament if i was the only entry. LOL. I don’t buy games based on how good they shoot I buy games because I’m attracted to their creativity. We’re two different people and the pinball company sells to a different market as well.

JJP CE games at 12k obviously appeal to a different crowd. It’s okay everyone has an opinion but I think if you polled EVERYONE who owns a pin the games with powder coating look better and you know what that is okay.

Some people on this site are appalled at asking prices of games on Craig’s list or eBay... who cares what those people think? The only thing that matters is the person who’s buying the game, the car, the house, or whatever. Just because everyone in your house doesn’t drink Pepsi doesn’t mean a lot of other people do.

We fall into this trap that just because your closest nit friends think one way it’s EVERYONE feels that way. That is false.

If by garbage u mean damn fun then I'm right with ya.

Hey I take back everything Ive ever said about Black Knight because last night I stopped into the world famous Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas. They had a black Knight so somehow this game with the lame toys made it into the PInball Hall of Fame

Any game that makes the pinball hall of fame has to be pintastic right? LOL

I think this ends the debate once and for all. I stand corrected. It will also go down as one of the rarest Stern games, because its not selling good, so it has that going for it to. Again I apologize and stand corrected. Please accept this apology.

Btw the pinball hall of fame in Vegas is an amazing and very special place. Please visit the black Knight along with 350 other machines.

Nope.

Ok, this is new, so powdercoat subtracts value now? What else you got genius?