What does your friend want?

Like some black knight bash toy with 2 mini ramps on each side that launch the ball at all parts of his body as his pivots left to right punching the ball back at you?

The pirate ship on their Pirates of the Caribbean was pretty cool, the way it rocks and sways and eventually sinks. Having said that I like the BK toy, maybe would have been cool if the head rotated. Like if it looked at whatever outlane you drained in when it mocked you or stuff like that, but maybe there is no room for that in there along with the flail.

Aerosmith toy box fails way to often. Its usually turned off on location for that reason. Houdini's is way more impressive. It's hard to count lower playfield as a toy.

It's a toy that serves actual purpose to game play. It directly affects 2 shots. Not to mention the crazyness that is created by the swinging mace. It sounds like your describing the deadpool bobblehead.

Good point. I said 5 years, pirates is like 13 years old. The topper will do all that on a almost life size scale. Supposedly greatest topper ever.

The knight is a great toy ! Yes they coulda done a little more with the pf but I take a slightly different tack . I don’t mind a stripped down game as an alternative but selling it for the same price as other , more in-depth offerings is what’s crazy . Saying all pins are 5,500 , 7,500 , 9k - refardless of design - is insane .

And lights

I am sure that POTC owners would count the upper playfield as a toy so I will count the lower playfield as a toy

Oh god no.

Ah you're right, I owned it in the past 5 years so I got confused on that one. Interesting about the topper, will have to investigate once they bringing it out.

I was pretty sure we reached Peak Pinside when people were complaining about flippers. In a pinball game.

Ha, the Ruby Reds were pretty bad & Pinside DID NOT like them at all. Fast forward to today and people can't get enough of the new stupid ass flipper covers.

I guess I'm un-sophisticated, I liked the pin and the knight. Couldn't see the real draw for the upper PF in the premium model, Pro seemed to be a good value. The only thing I could whine about would be the 'meh' artwork on the translite - IMO.

Despite all the downvotes I got for expressing my opinion, which I think is very accurate one, I totally agree with you. I love JJP games I'm not going to hide that because they take their time, and every single time they're trying to make a piece of art! Stern is pumping these games out like there is no tomorrow rather than taking their time to do something original.

Can even one single person on these forums actually tell me they think Black Knight, looks like they slow roasted this game? Can even one person tell me they think Stern is trying to do something original? Seriously? C'mon! You spend virtually zero on a license so why not go all out and create the MM madness 2 rather than an empty playfield with virtually nothing happening and charge 9k for the LE?

When you look at Black Knight, tell me how that game is worth 6k or 9k for an LE. Show me how! Willy Wonka LE is 9k essentially how is a Stern BLack Knight worth dollar for dollar what a Wonka LE is? How can any rational human being make that argument?

So my point in replying to these comments is I agree with you 110%. I don't hate any pinball company I just want to buy an amazing pinball game, I want to play it and say WOW that has never been done before, look at the attention to detail, look at the new FX we've never seen before!

Why doesn't Stern even TRY to accomplish this? Some people are ripping on Deep Root for taking a year and a day to do anything, well maybe they want to set the pinball world on fire. Maybe they want to do what Stern should have already done and reimagine a pinball game. Maybe they will maybe they won't, but if I was Stern I'd be like

WE ARE THE BIGGEST COMPANY... we need to be the company leading the way! But they're not and no one can argue that fact. Sorry. JJP is the company leading the pinball to new levels, and adding features no one has ever seen before, and since JJP has come on the scene Stern still has made little to no changes to how they produce a game. I think from their perspective, we're here to make money, and since we have the most reliable machines, the best dealer situations, the best licenses, why should we change a thing? You should because you never want to leave a gap for a new company to come in and steal your thunder.

Do they produce the most machines sure, but that isn't leading the industry to the next level because they've left the door wide open for a swift kick to the nut sack. Maybe Deep Root does it, maybe JJP who knows, but I agree I'd rather see Stern reaching for the stars and the moon than producing games so fast or repeating things from older games. Lets see Stern just ONCE take nearly 2 years to develop one game, to blow our minds! What is wrong with that?

Nothing! When people stop buying the same thing that's when you'll see changes. Customers push changes not companies.

Counterpoint: Stern games are fun. That’s all I care about.

I'll tell you what I would have done with the Knight, I would have been thinking MM 2.

All of the games would have had the upper playfield, and that would have been decked out with castles walls, flickering lanterns and I would have ripped off the idea from Scared Stiff and those pop up frogs. So on the upper playfield you have pop up monsters and you hit the targets and they jump up (like you're fighting the monsters). Another example is AFM ... you could have added the different monsters from the screen same thing as AFM on the lower part of the playfield. No reason those 2 dollar toys couldn't be included, so hit a target you battle that monsters. C'mon make something happen on the playfield that seems fun!

Added a video mode where you use the flipper buttons to battle knights where you wield a sword. Nothing wrong with adding a cool video mode.

Stern has ruined my life. I can’t sleep. I can’t eat without being sick. I no longer leave the house.

Which has been going on longer?
1. Stern door left wide open
2. The bubble ready to burst

Please phrase your answer in the form of a inflation calculator.

The concept that a pinball machine should now be made closer in design to a work of art rather than an industrial grade, money making coin-op arcade machine of the last 80 years is relatively new. I don't know if I want to "pay" for my pinball machines to be works of art. I can't explain why I have more fun shooting BK3 than JJP Pirates. I can't explain it. You're totally right about the wealth of objects to shoot at and the slow grill richness and beauty of a JJP game over recent Sterns.
I don't know why we can't have both rather than try to change Stern (as if that's even a thing, ha!)

every single post he makes...
talk about TL;DR

The problem is that Pinsiders have been predicting the bubble about to burst for so long now that any pinball manufacturer that invests in real innovation is afraid they'll probably release it just as the pinball market crashes.

Vicious cycle!

Here's the thing, I've played games like Pirates, Dialed In, Wizard of Oz, TNA, Oktoberfest, Alice Cooper, etc. I've played tons of games because so many are available to play on location here in Los Angeles. I'm in the process of playing a ton more at the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas as I'm here right now. In the end the most fun game to me personally, by far, was BK Pro hence I bought that. Your mileage may vary and that's fine, but personally I don't buy the company, I buy the game. Yeah, I'm weird like that. It's irrelevant to me if a company spends 1 billion dollars and 20 years to put out a game with 5000 toys on it and 8 stacked pinball playfields, ultimately I buy what I find fun. Hell I still play my Jr Pacman arcade machine, a very basic game but still fun from time to time. To each their own.

Having said that, Oktoberfest is pretty darned good...

Bubble Burst been going since Stern was the ONLY company and MM reached the outrageous price of $3500 (we are talking 2000) so undisputed winner.

Stern sucking ass due to not innovating enough for people who routinely have proven they do not want innovation is a fairly new development, but just as cheap a Pinside pop lately.

We've got dueling "stern sucks" threads going today. Stern Sucks is so hot right now!!!

Best "toy" on a game in the last 20 years. Black Knight is the best theme in pinball and Stern kept BK alive and hes better than ever. This game is too good to be true and I recommend everyone get one, especially a prem/le.
And get a Iron Maiden and Deadpool to stick next to it and youll have the best 3 game collection.

Couple things here... for one I didn't say any bubble was about to burst show me where i said that. However I will tell you that Stern and Chicago Gaming both do not have a booth at the upcoming IAAPA tradeshow in Orlando the biggest amusement tradeshow in the World. JJP has a booth but those two who had booths last year do not have one that I can find this year. Here is a fact for you the coin op industry has changed drastically everything has moved to either shooter games, or redemption. There is no inbetween now. If you talk to facilities they will all tell you they do not like pinball because they're too hard to fix, and they don't make money. I can only imagine Stern doesn't have a booth is one of two reasons... 1) After going for years and years and seeing their return diminish they decided to give up on it or 2) They're just going to let their dealers try and move machines to new venues. But I wonder why both Chicago and Stern both gave up on a nearly 1 million square foot show, that attracts over 25,000 buyers from around the world. Good question huh?

But as for the bubble bursting, you have to ask yourself how much demand is there really for new pinball machines especially when essentially all pinball games are the same. I think what sells new pinball games is the theme, a hot movie, band whatever moves machines. When you have no license nothing to connect a machine that honestly isn't that much different than the last one, its that theme that attracts buyers. So if you're running out of bands, or themes, you need to do something new and different to attract buyers.

Think about POTC from JJP... is it really a licensed game when there is virtually zero movie clips? I think people love the game because its new, different, something never seen before. I think all the pinball companies and especially Stern need to consider what attracted buyers to POTC despite its real deep tie ins to the film?

Secondly, Stern has left the door wide open. JJP introduced WOZ and everyone's mouth hit the floor! What has Stern done since to counter that level of movie integration into their games? JJP is still the only machines with cameras, amazing interactive graphics, giant screens, etc. Where is the bluetooth features, or connecting to the web, or an online gaming portal like XBOX has?

Yes the door is wide open for someone to take the bull by the horns and change pinball for the next generation. I totally believe that. JJP is trying, maybe Deep Root pushes it thru the door who knows.

Let me tell you something that is a total fact... I deal with clients and they tell me well there is already an escape room in our town. I tell them well that is great because we'll just one up them with something better. Its always better to go second, or third because you get to see what your competition brings to the table, and it gives you an opportunity to figure out how to top them.

I think that is what Deep Root is doing right now... they see what JJP is doing, and Stern. They have the advantage unless the other companies who're already established beat them to the punch. Is Stern honestly trying to beat anyone to the punch?

Seriously?

Black Knight is evidence the answer is NO!

LOL I got downvotes by fanboys for saying the above

images-5 (resized).jpeg

drfrightner

You have the longest posts and explanations I've ever seen.
I've only read a handful but I have to say you are an asset to the community. Every group needs a protagonist.

Alright quite down there is no place for logic on pinside

Back in '96 Scared Stiff had some nice mechs (leaping frogs/jumper bumpers/crate/coffin/spider wheel) and terrific Freres artwork. Based on a recent Cassandra Petersen post I expect Elvira 3 to be Stern's game at Pinball Expo this October. I am counting on a visually beautiful game with another nice layout from Nordman with code by Lyman Sheats, more Freres art and loads of witty comments from Elvira, this time accompanied by nice video clips from her horror movie hosting days.

You would get more downvotes but most people just pass your long winded post

read the last one I put up there... hey I have a different perspective and it comes from being part the amusement industry. I also am a fan of pinball machines and probably from a different perspective. I hear people talk about Munsters and how smooth it shoots... I don't care about that. I am a designer of attractions, I like games that do something new, something different, take things to the next level. I appreciate a pinball game the same way a collector of art would buy art for example... oh and they're fun to play.

So I think I bring two different perspectives and thanks for your comments!

I would love for a pinball company to hire to design a pinball game, I will tell you the bells and whistles would be off the scale, attention to detail would be everything for me. I don't understand the math behind shots, but I do understand theme integration. I've done major amusement projects based on Spider-Man, James Bond, Garfield, Incredible Hulk, worked on attractions for MGM, Marvel Comics, Sea World, to Universal Studios.

I have a lot of idea's that I think would really be incredible... the tech is there now to do anything cheap!

If you could only learn to read more than a newspaper comic book strip you'd appreciate them more! LOL

Damn ! Such vitriol for this new pin. For a minute, I thought is was over on The Munsters page; t looks like there is a lot of copy and paste going on. The only thing that is different is the names of the pinsiders with axes to grind.

Sow me where I said you did!

Jesus we've already read this novel in other threads.

If I'm beginning to learn one thing about humanity from observing discussions on Pinside all these years...

1. Two people can observe the same damn thing and come away with completely different opinions. How is that even possible?
2. My best guess: People can have different priorities when judging things. i.e. (code over theme) (theme over layout) (layout over code) etc...
3. When priorities are different, there is a much lower likelihood for common ground in the discussion.

So if that's the case -- is it more useful to argue a point? a priority? both? neither?
-mof

So where's the actual poll? Tease! I clicked for the poll!

I’m starting to think that I would rather castrate myself with a blunt rock then have to take another pole on pinside.

F9CCFB31-3EE8-4E2A-94F4-02AB762C803F (resized).jpeg

Now you’re talking about entertainment that I’d pay to see !

Finally some wisdom.... Thanks

i thought it was ok when i first saw it. nothing too revolutionary though. but definitely an attractive toy that has a prominent position on the playfield.

after playing the game for a bit my overall reaction to it is a big MEH.

the game needs some work and the toy isn't going to save it on its own.

I mostly agree. Seems like there's too much winning going on at Stern right now and the non-Stern fanboys can't take it. They are on a rampage.

This doesn't surprise me.
I don't want to do it, but you could probably categorize everyone into like 7 different categories- e.g. loves speed, loves completeness, loves utilitarian/"value" is most important, loves a journey, etc.- and then you'd get your priorities, and then you could academically group all pinball machines into those priorities and you'd be 80% right.

Hell it's probably top secret market research that already exists.

I'm more conflicted about this game than any other Stern has recently released.

Although I tend to agree with the criticism some have expressed for the game's sparse playfield, uni-ramp design, and "lame" BK figure, there's also no escaping the fact that (to me at least) the game is fast and furious and has that "just one more game" factor in spades, truly a blast to play (even though the BK has repeatedly kicked my ass and taken lots of my money at this point).

I do think the light show is good enough to lessen the sting of the obvious cost-cutting, but that in and of itself is actually a cost-cutting move too! Those RGB LED boards look cool but are probably much less costly to design and manufacture than adding additional ramps or animating the BK figure.

A good example of a game I'll probably never own, but will always drop quarters into (so I guess the BK wins after all).

I can't wait to get my BK Premium. I like when toys interact with your ball or when they are moving not only just for the show effect, I like when they block ways or change the layout of a game. The crane in Dark Knight is one of the best interactive toys in pinball in my opinion. But I also like show effects if they are done right, like the shadow ball lock, the electric chair in metallica, the hand in TAF or the magnet lock in SW.
But can we say the Black Knight is only this plastic toy? He interacts with the ball in different ways, he looks menacing and mean. But he is not only a toy, he is way more: He taunts you, talks the whole game with you, he is your enemy and to win the game you have to beat him. He is the main antagonist! To beat him is the motivation to play the game, the BK drives this game. Many games don't have an antagonist or he is hidden. I love the idea that the BK is present on the playfield and that he gives the player a fight.
If you call that a toy, than the BK is one of the best in pinball for me.

This times 100. I am enjoying the hell out of mine. I think it looks super cool and does cool things. What else do you want?

IDK, flippers seem pretty important, and if they don’t feel right, I have no problem saying so. It’s the number one reason I will only consider NIB Sterns at this time. Stern makes great snappy flippers, other companies not so much.

Drop the mic

I disagree. For the record, I voted in favor of the toy, but I think the game is a barren landscape. I think it looks and feels cheap. The art package and flippers are excellent as usual, but the vinyl cutouts instead of sculpts and the lack of any real features other than the toy still just remind me of Street Level pins. I think Stern should step up their game for what they are charging for these. That is why the competition is a good thing for everyone, Stern "fanboys" or not.