How much is average for a game $$ wise?

Stern Premium pricing... $6k-ish. for a full featured LCD game.

So, that would be what you'd end up paying just to buy them outright. Then the playfields are said to be priced at 60%.

Then they are more expensive really, so that's an issue.

Swappable aspect is cool for people...it will probably be a niche market but the more options the better I guess.

More expensive than what? A Stern Pro game that has red dots and a few color changing lights? Sure. But I don't think if Heighway removed their swapping system they'd all of a sudden be selling full color LCD, full featured games for $5k.

Has pricing been released yet for the playfield kits only?

3 or 4 game playfields in one cabinet like on a Rotisserie could work maybe! A lot of details to work out but then you just spin the next one into the top play position.

Don't be lazy. That thinking is why I beat you in the fitbit challenge every week.

I think it is a great idea but I doubt anyone is going to have a closet full of expensive populated playfields collecting dust. A playfield would be tough to sell by itself because the buyer would not be sure if it is 100% working. Buyers interested in the game would have to have a cabinet to put it in. If not, buying a cab and a playfield separately would be a pain. I just don't see that being the new standard. It's a great feature, though. I can see it being convenient to pull out the whole playfield when working on certain things. I imagine it would be easier to build them that way but don't know if that is true.

It doesn't make sense to me. Especially at the price I heard. I heard mention that it's like getting two machines for 10k.

Any serious operator would want two machines. With two coin doors not one machine. And two standard sterns at that same 10k would make way more sense.

If they are marketing home collectors I still don't see the appeal. If you have that much money to spend do you really have space concerns? Do you really want the chore of swapping a game? This is not an Atari cartridge. And there are still storage and dust concerns.

I have not really looked at either company as it would never made sense in my eyes.

It is best a blip in history. I hate to say it.

Maybe I am way off on the cost I heard and maybe it does make financial sense.

I sure think the systems are neat especially the multimorphic which may have a slight edge is sales just due to the wild design. But so wild it may just seem to foreign. I don't see it ever being right for me.

And if I purchased a few different titles then go to sell? Now what??

So I think a marketing gimmick at best, a new era in Pinball. No.

I have lot's of wealthy (and not so wealthy) clients who are simply out of room pinball wise.

If a new one comes in, something has to go out.

i was just discussing this with a family member the other day. i don't understand why someone like planetary doesn't make a single cabinet and make swappable playfields. Buy your MMr or AFMr or whatever as a complete game for $8k (or whatever the price is) and then make the next game available for drop in.

I agree that some people just won't want to take the time to do this (as i myself own both pin2k machines in their own respective cabinets), but i would believe there would be a market for it. Right now i am contemplating selling a bunch of my machines because i am out of room and have a The Hobbit Limited and a Rob Zombie already paid for and coming this year and would like a metallica/walking dead/star trek also. if they were just drop in games for my Wizard of Oz and America's Most Haunted (respectively) then i wouldn't need the extra room.

I think this is a great topic, but i can also see where it would be difficult to implement. storage becomes a big issue as you don't want to just toss your new $5k playfield (or whatever it would cost) under the the game or in a closet, so now you have to have some kind of crate to keep it in and after 2 or 3 you are taking up just about the same space as a fullsize machine.

The P3 is currently estimated to cost $9000-10000, it comes with two complete games (different playfield modules, artwork, etc.) and three "mini games" (software only) if you order before the end of TPF. No money is required upfront until they are building your game, see here:

http://www.multimorphic.com/index.php/p3-pinball-platform/pre-orders#

Future game kits are expected to cost between $1500-$3000. The cheapest kits will use existing playfield modules. More expensive kits will come with new upper-playfield modules, artwork and even new flipper/slingshot modules (allowing different flipper configurations), mid-playfield modules (allowing mechanisms in the middle of the playfield) and/or alternate flipper button/controller units.

If I remember correctly, they are working on stackable boxes to accommodate the upper playfield modules.

I would imagine that 2 or more populated playfields could fit under each machine.

At $5K each, you would probably not be buying every title released, so a guy with 2 cabs could have 6 games available to him.

It would also be harder for the wife to notice that you have bought more games if you leave the same graphics on the machine......

The playfield crate in the video looked pretty darn bulky. I'm not sure if 1 would fit underneath. Has anyone asked Heighway?

I'm just honest enough with myself to know I'm not going to be swapping playfields around on any kind of frequent basis. Now go get some steps in you sloth. I'm up 50K on you for the last 7 days

I think this is a possibility but the playfied-backglass-artwork kits have to be on the cheaper side of things pricewise. I personally wouldn't buy a NIB machine and I don't know too many people(under 35) who would. I would however buy a NIB for $6000-8000 if I could buy a $2000-3000 swappable insert type deal. Especially if there were 3 titles produced every year and I could trade between my friends. I most definitely could convince a few of my friends to invest if this were the case. Just saying.

The value for operators is in being able to swap games between venues easily. Carrying a playfield and some plastic artwork is much easier and safer than trying to manouvre an entire cabinet through a venue not designed for the purpose.

I have a populated BK playfield in it's original Williams wood crate under it's eventual home.

The P3 playfield is only 1/3 the size of a conventinal playfield. Several can easily fit under the machine.

I agree with what others have said - even if it is easy to swap - I'll likely keep my favorite playfield in the game.

That said, I love the concept of the interactive playfield and 'floating' bumpers and such over the playfield. I especially like the ability to buy entirely new games for 3k or less.

Yes I believe that swappable playfields are here to stay.

I have a NOS complete Apocalypse playfield kit sitting in its original box under a game. It fits just fine but I could only fit two under there if I had to. A more modern playfield with ramps would be taller. So I would think you could only have 1 or at most 2 extra playfields per cabinet unless you stored them somewhere else. Though the P3 ones aren't very long.

I think it is a good idea for those limited on space and funds. But I know I wouldn't be changing it often. I am the guy who keeps the same CD in his car for 6 months because he is too lazy to go get another one.

The appeal to me is being able to buy a new game without buying a whole new game. The good thing for an Op (that does maintenance) is the ease of shopping the pin. You can throw another PF in while you are working on the other. For the collector, you would have a playable machine while you are shopping the playfield instead of a empty hole with boxes on top.

Believe saw that heighway could fit one game under only due to the full length sled rails.

It's going to be interesting to see how big the P3 playfield modules are at TPF, I don't recall seeing any pictures of the Lexy Lightspeed one out of the machine. I know they have done a lot of work on the docking/locking mechanism for the modules so it will be good to see the new system in action and find out how easy it is to swap it over.

I thought I just watched a video where he indicated only 20% which I thought was low.

I would rather have 3 real pins in the space I have available, then 1 interchangeable pinball machine with 7 games for it. This is coming from a guy with a MAME cabinet. I'd rather have a virtual pinball than something like that.

It reminds me of those 4 in 1 game setups, foosball/checkers/ etc all in one. Just not the same thing as a standalone real-deal setup.

I am not so sure about that, given that most locations are dying here. But you may still be right for Pro models. Never seen a LE (and can't recall a premium) on location anywhere.

It won't be binary. I'm not suddenly selling all my Sterns and replacing them with a Heighway system. But, I am selling one Stern, and in its place is going AlienLE with a FTH playfield underneath. We'll see what happens from there. I think it will catch on, and the swapable systems will just become a statistical part of the total pinball universe. There is no need for swapable systems and standard games to be mutually exclusive.

Also thinking that even if the height works for putting a heighway kit under, I bet it won't fit between the legs... Which means unless you have access from the side (I don't, have wall to wall machines) it wouldn't work to store under.

The P3 I could see putting several of those under a single cab, so a bit better.

This shouldnt take away the convenience of pulling the playfield from the cab for working on it.. That part is great!

I think the biggest problem that you would have selling swappable playfields actually comes down to resale. Yeah, you could sell it to some guy who can go toss the playfield in the back of their car an drive home, but the problem is your market is extremely limited.

If you want to buy my VND right now and I wanted to sell it, you need nothing before it to set it up and make it work.

If you are going to buy Playfield X, you need the base cabinet for that game already. You also need to not own that playfield to swap into it. This limits the market to an incredible extent.

I think that swappable playfields COULD catch on, but I feel like it would be easier for them to catch on with operators than with home buyers, and I also feel like most operators would only want one additional playfield for a line up of perhaps 10 machines, so they don't have a ton of expensive inventory sitting in their warehouses and not out earning money. I personally think it's niche.

Now, I might totally be proven wrong, and we'll see

Well some real good points brought up that I wasn't thinking of. That's why I am no OP. Can I downvote my own post?

Myself and a couple other guys in GA and AL are currently working on Sys - All-In-1s (just the standard not the superwidebodies). It's only a few cables and with a ni-wumpf or Janin board either a dip switch change or menu selection to be able to choose between several titles. I haven't decided whether to move forward because I've found cabs for most of the PFs but I have considered one machine that I can cycle Sinbad, Cleopatra, Solar Ride and Hulk through when I feel like playing them. Not concerned about whatever backglass is in b/c I will still be able to see the scores, the most important part. I may even design an All-In-1 BG but that is a few projects away.

Yes. Just about every collector I know is out of space. Real estate in CA isn't cheap. You can have $40k worth of pins sitting in your garage, and no way to realistically expand to fit more. We're pretty much all at the "sell a game to get a game" point.

Let's find a million reasons to hate on this great idea.

- Pinside

As far as my understanding, Heighway has designed playfield boxes to fit directly underneath the cab. This is a practical idea that fits with their whole design philosophy. It's a place to put the playfield, the translite & the side art all neatly in a confined space. I'm sure they have this all worked out already.

But here are the main reasons a swappable system is a great idea:

1) It makes sense for people running out of space for new games. Stay in the hobby long enough & everyone hits that wall eventually.

2) It makes sense for friends who own Heighway pins & they can loan/trade playfields . Much easier than moving cabinets!

3) It makes sense to when you're trying to limit your spending. With prices getting so insane these days, why spend $8-9K for a new chromed LE cabinet, large backbox monitor & shipping again & again....when you can just buy the LE cabinet once, and then get the playfield & artwork for around $5K. (I'm guessing at these numbers, but they sound about right from what I've read). That's a huge price break & big savings in the long run, especially if you're buying several different playfields. Playfields cost less money to ship as well.

The home collector can be saving thousands of dollars with every new release, compared to buying an entire machine with every new release. And the only "inconvenience" is that you have to take 3 minutes to swap the playfield. I'm saving thousands here, so I can deal with the swapping.

I am grateful that there is at least one major pinball manufacturer embracing this design. Operators might not be on board with the concept, but I think it's a game changer for the home collector for sure.

I hope it's a success and creates more innovation in competitors. And I know space will not be the issue as anyone who has a ton of games should be after to have a dedicated space for a few swappable play fields which can stack easy on each other just my guess. I wish them well.

Yeah, how could anyone be against this as at least as an option. You could have 8 Heighway games in dedicated cabs if you wanted but why not have the option, Stern should follow this model as well. I would love to be able to swap PF's every few months and not deal with selling to make space.

Not sure I understand this statement. How is a populated pinball machine not the same as a "standalone real-deal setup"?

Have you seen a P3 in person?

It's hard to explain. It would feel more like a MAME cabinet then an actual purpose made machine. I guess I'd have to try it, but the reality is, it would come down to how well the game plays, the theme, the design, etc. If you buy the cabinet and you can interchange 20 different games that are about as entertaining as playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded handgun, or an Atari Hercules machine, then that's a problem.

I'm not a serious operator, but on a hobby basis I operate a small location. We have 8 pins in the line-up, with space for maybe 1-2 more. For this location I would very much welcome the chance to rotate the line-up frequently by having a number of extra playfields (Heighway) or playfield modules (Multimorphic) in our storage room. Storage space is a limited resource for us as well, not only for home collectors. Less space requirements for stored games means we could provide more variation.

If the coin boxes at a later time tell us that we'd do better by having more of the modular titles in the line-up at the same time, I'm sure Heighway and Multimorphic will be selling base cabinets for us to drop our extra playfields into.

I love the Heighway idea. Ideally I would own 2 or 3 of their cabs and maybe 6 of their fields. I can swap them at will. Double or triple the games. Just need a good way to store.

Maybe we should have this conversation AFTER someone is actually shipping this concept and actually successfully selling it

It is an interesting concept for sure but we will need to see how well it is executed over time. My gut reaction is that it is more of a blip than a paradigm shift.

I get the space/cost issues mentioned but I think it really breaks down to the demographics of buyers.

We have the unlimited funds/unlimited space group, I'm sure they will buy one just because they can. If the pin ends up as a blip then they will fall into the "collector" category down the road so a few folks will stash one away just because they can. It is fueled by "want" not by "need" (There is a subset to this group that has self imposed limits on space and funds. I'm one that could spend more than I do or could expand my space to include more pins but I'm happy with the balance to my other interests and I know there are others out there who do the same ... other than the interesting tech I don't see this as a pin quickly accepted by that group because we don't "need/want" anything being offered).

Then there are those who have limited space but unlimited funds, I question how that group will accept the concept, if it isn't a "mainstream" product it becomes less desirable so the time it takes for acceptance becomes a big factor. There will be the early adopters who "need" what the pin offers but the average buyer needs to accept it quickly or as time passes it will become less desirable to the masses.

Finally the limited funds AND limited space group where there is generally a need to sell one to make room while funding the next and even with lower priced inserts it may be an issue ...as people have pointed out selling the inserts will be a limited market for a while and getting "stuck" with unpopular games could be a deterrent, just like it is with full-sized pins. So many in that group will stick owning the older pins and that keeps the status quo.

Look at Stern's "The Pin" generally seen as a total failure because it wasn't really what the collector/player market wanted. It turns out we will spend more for a real arcade machine, we don't want a "toy" toy we want a "real" toy. So if the swap-able pin is not seen as a "toy version" and is accepted by OPs then it stands a really good chance but if the focus is the home market and only that market accepts it then it will be an temporary addition to the marketplace not a replacement (and becomes a blip)

wonder if either company is going to sell a rack for playfield cases or what. That or the cases would have to be beefy if people want to take 1 pinball spot and stack floor to ceiling playfields.. each weighing.. what 50lbs+ fully loaded. The cases / storage strategy might be a big part of making it viable.

What do you mean? "The Pin" is in the midst of a Renaissance, they just added a dmd and call it a pro now...

A number of collectors, me included, would be interested. I can easily imagine using one of my spots for a swappable platform.
Will it be a blip or a new standard will depends on several factors:

- Cost of an extra game (including delivery) - as compared to a Stern Pro, for example.
- Ease of replacement
- Ease of storage of extra PF
- Variety. This model will become really competitive the day you have 4+ games on each platform. Even more if you have the perspective of new games arriving often.
- Commercial offers: "Tired of your old game? Send your used PF in a dedicated box and we will send a new one for $xx!" Or temporary swaps between collectors. Things that are not so easy to implement right now (imagine your gameroom is in the basement) can become really easy: "Can I borrow your lexy light speed tonight?". You could even imagine a Tech doing repairs at his shop while leaving another game on loan...

A full swap on a Heighway platform seems very fast - less than 3' I think? That makes the operation doable even in the middle of a tournament - can be fun. Cost is an issue though: ≈ 60% of the price of a full game may be hard to swallow for some.

P3 : unsure how fast is the swap. Extra PF takes less space as it only correspond to the upper half / third. Should be easy to store. Price for an extra game was rumored to be low, which is very promising.

Bottom line: the model may work very well. But a number of buyers will bite only when enough games are available.

Does Heighway or P3 require a software update when swapping games or is there enough space on the boards to store all of the game/settings info for all of the current/future games. That would be a dealbreaker for me if I had to reset all of my settings/high scores when swapping games out even if that part of the swap only took a couple of minutes.

It's fast if you're not worrying about damaging stuff and do not care where to rest the other game!

Hey guys,

I hope you don't mind me posting in this thread to answer some specific questions and add some facts about the P3:

Playfields will come in stackable storage containers. Both of our first two playfield modules weigh just 24 lbs and are easily manageable for one person. I'm not all that strong, and I often carry playfield modules around with one hand.

I just timed myself swapping a p/f. From a fully buttoned up machine (glass and lockdown bar installed), I completely switched playfields and re-installed the glass and lockdown bar in 65 seconds. Add 15s to boot into the game software, and you can go from playing one game to playing another in 80 seconds. Swapping artwork takes just a couple of seconds per decal.

As for price of game kits, it of course depends on game complexity, but we're standing by our estimates of $1500-$3000. All you're swapping is game-specific features. The ball trough, wall/scoop assembly, playfield LCD, etc stay with the platform.

Yes, the P3 is fully designed around the swappable game concept. Software, settings, stats etc are stored on the SSD. When you plug in a playfield module and boot up the system, the system automatically detects which module is installed and unlocks the associated software (ie. games). Note, there can be multiple software apps / games that work with each playfield. The system tracks the settings and stats independently for each app. When you run the app, it loads your saved settings and stats for that app. The system can also track stats and achievements on an event basis per app (ie. a party, a weekend event, a month, a year, etc). Multiple events can be active at the same time and are tracked independently.

The system will also be [optionally] network connected for installing updates and new game apps and also for backing up your settings and stats (as well as for many other features, like cooperative and head-to-head gaming).

Let me know if I can answer any more questions. Those attending TPF in just a couple of weeks can see us demo many of these features in person during our seminar and throughout the show in our booth.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

About 10kg