(Topic ID: 297248)

Is MM about to be dethroned as #1?

By Damonator

10 months ago


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  • 156 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 64 days ago by cait001
  • Topic is favorited by 14 Pinsiders

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There are 509 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 11.
#401 5 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Premiere & Sega crushed W/B sales?
I Didn't witness that.

Licensed games versus non licensed. I didn’t mention specific manufacturers.

35 of the top 50 in production were licensed, while MM was 44th.

https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?yr=1990-2000&sortby=name&searchtype=advanced

#402 5 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Licensed games versus non licensed. I didn’t mention specific manufacturers.
35 of the top 50 in production were licensed, while MM was 44th.
https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?yr=1990-2000&sortby=name&searchtype=advanced

True, but another way to look at it by year instead of overall numbers. Saying licensed themes crushed everything doesn't account for the study decline of overall sales. Nothing in 1996, even like 5 machines combined, were going to sell as much as TAF or TZ did.
If you take Williams, Wh20 doubled a bunch of licensed titles; DH, NF, Congo, & JM but of course it was made a couple years before when sales where high. TOM was a monster and outsold all that shit and after it.
highest production

1990 - Funhouse
1991 - T2
1992 - TAF
1993 - TZ
1994 - WCS
1995 - TOM
1996 - Scared Stiff
1997 - NBA

It's a mixed bag and you'd find both licensed & non moving up and down if you listed the top 3 even, but I'm just saying I don't see it as a slam dunk like it is now.
No big whoop.

#403 5 months ago
Quoted from gjm7777:

As of this writing in the marketplace:
27 Godzillas for sale or trade
12 Medieval Madness for sale or trade

And...? Not sure what this means. There's 27 of the current #1 pin available? Are they ALL over msrp? I'm pretty confident if they were msrp they would be sold any probably will sell even over msrp. Even distributors are trading the premium zillas for other LEs to take advantage of the hype and lack of supply. My question would be.. why would anyone ever sell MM.

#404 5 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

True, but another way to look at it by year instead of overall numbers. Saying licensed themes crushed everything doesn't account for the study decline of overall sales. Nothing in 1996, even like 5 machines combined, were going to sell as much as TAF or TZ did.
If you take Williams, Wh20 doubled a bunch of licensed titles; DH, NF, Congo, & JM but of course it was made a couple years before when sales where high. TOM was a monster and outsold all that shit and after it.
highest production
1990 - Funhouse
1991 - T2
1992 - TAF
1993 - TZ
1994 - WCS
1995 - TOM
1996 - Scared Stiff
1997 - NBA
It's a mixed bag and you'd find both licensed & non moving up and down if you listed the top 3 even, but I'm just saying I don't see it as a slam dunk like it is now.
No big whoop.

The point is, everyone says how original themes need to come back to get these sales numbers back. Point is the data just doesn’t support it.

But yes, original themes had more success in the 90s. But most list the top dogs like MM and AFM, but they simply didn’t do as well when they were new compared to licensed games. And everyone makes the argument of all 90s Williams games are the end all be all and as you’ve shown, they did well here and there at best.

#405 5 months ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

The point is, everyone says how original themes need to come back...

No only jackasses say that, we all know that isn't how it works now. I was responding to you saying licensed themes "were the only way to earn quarters back then."

#406 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!![quoted image]

Its very telling that u never respond to what games u own (if any)....Stern pays u to troll?

-4
#407 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Feedback isn’t just for manufacturers and the top 100. It’s also for pinsiders.

Just because feedback or others opinion don’t align with your’s, doesn’t mean the feedback should be so insidious like it is so much of the time here on one of the meanest user sites on the net. There is better feedback: respect and kindness for others opinions, even if they don’t agree with your’s is the better way. All the up/down vote is childish and nonsensical and proves nothing. It becomes laughable, at the very least. If you don’t agree with another’s opinion, fine. Wouldn’t it be a far better way to express your opinion in a respectful manner to others? After all, we are not against each other here or shouldn’t be. We are discussing manufacturers and their product, which is open fair game in a forum. Now think long and hard about that feedback…

-6
#408 5 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Its very telling that u never respond to what games u own (if any)....Stern pays u to troll?

It’s easy to list, as I own every modern Stern, along with some other manufacturers. (Stop name calling, just because one expresses their opinion doesn’t make them a troll, because if that’s the case you’re a troll too.)

#409 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

It’s easy to list, as I own every modern Stern, along with some other manufacturers. (Stop name calling, just because one expresses their opinion doesn’t make them a troll, because if that’s the case you’re a troll too.)

Right....sure u do

#410 5 months ago

Godzilla has the potential to a longer term #1 ranked game. The premium and LE have multiple impressive interactive mechs, several of which reveal new shots which is rare to see in a game today (as MM did with the gate). Everything in Godzilla feels like a miniature city with monsters that creates a great world under glass feeling. Very few modern games pull that off as well, think of Mando with the giant stationary baby Yoda and Mando head playfield...just odd in terms of scale and purpose. Finally the display itself on Godzilla is one of Stern's best in the LCD era as it shows your objectives and progress on an interactive city map that changes as you progress through the game.

-1
#411 5 months ago

Is it me or do a lot of recent sterns have crappy callouts? GZ for example…to me that monotone voice sounds very uninspired. Same with AIQ and even TMNT. I mean Deadpool killed it with call outs. Seems like everything since then sucks

MM to me is like DP in that it is fun in the box. Not saying MM is the #1 pin ever. I actually think DP should be ranked as 1 or 2 of all time. You can have a quick game or grind it out for a while.

-1
#412 5 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

No only jackasses say that, we all know that isn't how it works now. I was responding to you saying licensed themes "were the only way to earn quarters back then."

They were. . There are exceptions to every rule.

#413 5 months ago
Quoted from Mattyk:

Is it me or do a lot of recent sterns have crappy callouts? GZ for example…to me that monotone voice sounds very uninspired. Same with AIQ and even TMNT. I mean Deadpool killed it with call outs. Seems like everything since then sucks
MM to me is like DP in that it is fun in the box. Not saying MM is the #1 pin ever. I actually think DP should be ranked as 1 or 2 of all time. You can have a quick game or grind it out for a while.

GZ callouts are supposed to sound like Raymond Burr.

#414 5 months ago
Quoted from Mattyk:

Is it me or do a lot of recent sterns have crappy callouts? GZ for example…to me that monotone voice sounds very uninspired. Same with AIQ and even TMNT. I mean Deadpool killed it with call outs. Seems like everything since then sucks
MM to me is like DP in that it is fun in the box. Not saying MM is the #1 pin ever. I actually think DP should be ranked as 1 or 2 of all time. You can have a quick game or grind it out for a while.

It goes up and down in quality but DP specifically had a comic book writer hired on to write and Nolan North doing call outs. Nolan North is one of the most famous voice actors of all time and has been doing Deadpool for years.

#415 5 months ago
Quoted from Palmer:

GZ callouts are supposed to sound like Raymond Burr.

Gotcha I didn’t realize that. They nailed it then

#416 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Just because feedback or others opinion don’t align with your’s, doesn’t mean the feedback should be so insidious like it is so much of the time here on one of the meanest user sites on the net. There is better feedback: respect and kindness for others opinions, even if they don’t agree with your’s is the better way. All the up/down vote is childish and nonsensical and proves nothing. It becomes laughable, at the very least. If you don’t agree with another’s opinion, fine. Wouldn’t it be a far better way to express your opinion in a respectful manner to others? After all, we are not against each other here or shouldn’t be. We are discussing manufacturers and their product, which is open fair game in a forum. Now think long and hard about that feedback…

My own mantra is simple: post online like we were talking face to face. I’m always remembering that before I hit the enter key. Others are more impulsive I guess.

I understand some folks have issues or agendas and as long as I don’t purposefully insult anyone ( without provocation), then it’s usually just internet jibber-jab to me.

-1
#417 5 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Its very telling that u never respond to what games u own (if any)....Stern pays u to troll?

Would just be another lie if it did tell you.

#418 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

My own mantra is simple: post online like we were talking face to face. I’m always remembering that before I hit the enter key. Others are more impulsive I guess.
I understand some folks have issues or agendas and as long as I don’t purposefully insult anyone ( without provocation), then it’s usually just internet jibber-jab to me.

Thanks, I agree with you and have the same mantra. What we say face to face should be the way we conduct ourselves here in the forum. But because owners of some machines become so evangelical, they attack others by downvoting, which I’ve had a great deal of by the JJP fanboys in particular. I own JJP games and like them, but have had so many issues like many others here have had too that this is a place to discuss them. For example, fanatics want to defend bad PFs instead of discussing our frustrations together.

#419 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

My own mantra is simple: post online like we were talking face to face

Internet would be much more fun if everyone did this.

#420 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Thanks, I agree with you and have the same mantra. What we say face to face should be the way we conduct ourselves here in the forum. But because owners of some machines become so evangelical, they attack others by downvoting, which I’ve had a great deal of by the JJP fanboys in particular. I own JJP games and like them, but have had so many issues like many others here have had too that this is a place to discuss them. For example, fanatics want to defend bad PFs instead of discussing our frustrations together.

Beavis (resized).jpeg
#421 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Thanks, I agree with you and have the same mantra. What we say face to face should be the way we conduct ourselves here in the forum. But because owners of some machines become so evangelical, they attack others by downvoting, which I’ve had a great deal of by the JJP fanboys in particular. I own JJP games and like them, but have had so many issues like many others here have had too that this is a place to discuss them. For example, fanatics want to defend bad PFs instead of discussing our frustrations together.

Here’s my problem with you and feedback for you. And I’d say all this to your face. (Some of this will require research)

1) you are like the Sonos employee/evangelist Kumar whose job is essentially to take a dump on any audio entertainment product not named Sonos. As if a market with one competitor is a good idea.

2) your first and only topic you started read like a Gary stern market research competitive analysis survey.

3) you have this slimy weird way or tactic of feigning neutrality that looks disingenuous but is trying to be genuine. For example, in your GNR review you employ praise for other JJP games like DI to support your neutrality and thus credibility. Or in this post here citing “other” evangelicals negatively but saying you own the same games.

4) “wedging” narratives. When I read your posts I feel like the whole concept of “fanboys” and “us vs them” is started and perpetuated by people like you. Amd this is unforgivable. Back to this “market of one” as a good idea which I abhor. I take MASSIVE offense to the fanboy narrative because I am a fan of pinball.

5) Your GNR review that is also a forum post. This is a great example of dividing narratives. You basically poop over the game and plant this narrative idea out there that “concert in a box” is stupid. Insulting all the fans who are kicking ass in the game, hitting shots on the play field, hearing crowd noise build, and hearing random unheard callouts like “nice effing shot” from slash when you do something cool. And the under 3 review of the game can only be described as angry. Under 3 stars for GNR? Are you REALLY a pinball fan or just an us vs them person who can’t escape the political division that permeates our culture now?

I’ve said enough. There are other things that annoy but these are the main ones. I’m obviously passionate and anti jimwe5t

#422 5 months ago

Greatest of the “modern” era. I would say that Captain Fantastics is still the GOAT given what the game means to the history of pinball.

#423 5 months ago
Quoted from holminone:

Here’s my problem with you and feedback for you. And I’d say all this to your face. (Some of this will require research)
1) you are like the Sonos employee/evangelist Kumar whose job is essentially to take a dump on any audio entertainment product not named Sonos. As if a market with one competitor is a good idea.
2) your first and only topic you started read like a Gary stern market research competitive analysis survey.
3) you have this slimy weird way or tactic of feigning neutrality that looks disingenuous but is trying to be genuine. For example, in your GNR review you employ praise for other JJP games like DI to support your neutrality and thus credibility. Or in this post here citing “other” evangelicals negatively but saying you own the same games.
4) “wedging” narratives. When I read your posts I feel like the whole concept of “fanboys” and “us vs them” is started and perpetuated by people like you. Amd this is unforgivable. Back to this “market of one” as a good idea which I abhor. I take MASSIVE offense to the fanboy narrative because I am a fan of pinball.
5) Your GNR review that is also a forum post. This is a great example of dividing narratives. You basically poop over the game and plant this narrative idea out there that “concert in a box” is stupid. Insulting all the fans who are kicking ass in the game, hitting shots on the play field, hearing crowd noise build, and hearing random unheard callouts like “nice effing shot” from slash when you do something cool. And the under 3 review of the game can only be described as angry. Under 3 stars for GNR? Are you REALLY a pinball fan or just an us vs them person who can’t escape the political division that permeates our culture now?
I’ve said enough. There are other things that annoy but these are the main ones. I’m obviously passionate and anti jimwe5t

Everyone would be better off if they just ignored him like most of us have at this point. I don't even know if he is human. He sounds more like some weird AI chat bot Stern created to troll everyone on pinside.

#424 5 months ago

GZ is good… up there with TS.

#425 5 months ago
Quoted from holminone:

Here’s my problem with you and feedback for you. And I’d say all this to your face. (Some of this will require research)
1) you are like the Sonos employee/evangelist Kumar whose job is essentially to take a dump on any audio entertainment product not named Sonos. As if a market with one competitor is a good idea.
2) your first and only topic you started read like a Gary stern market research competitive analysis survey.
3) you have this slimy weird way or tactic of feigning neutrality that looks disingenuous but is trying to be genuine. For example, in your GNR review you employ praise for other JJP games like DI to support your neutrality and thus credibility. Or in this post here citing “other” evangelicals negatively but saying you own the same games.
4) “wedging” narratives. When I read your posts I feel like the whole concept of “fanboys” and “us vs them” is started and perpetuated by people like you. Amd this is unforgivable. Back to this “market of one” as a good idea which I abhor. I take MASSIVE offense to the fanboy narrative because I am a fan of pinball.
5) Your GNR review that is also a forum post. This is a great example of dividing narratives. You basically poop over the game and plant this narrative idea out there that “concert in a box” is stupid. Insulting all the fans who are kicking ass in the game, hitting shots on the play field, hearing crowd noise build, and hearing random unheard callouts like “nice effing shot” from slash when you do something cool. And the under 3 review of the game can only be described as angry. Under 3 stars for GNR? Are you REALLY a pinball fan or just an us vs them person who can’t escape the political division that permeates our culture now?
I’ve said enough. There are other things that annoy but these are the main ones. I’m obviously passionate and anti jimwe5t

Thanks to adoring fans like you, this is a better place???

#426 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Thanks to adoring fans like you, this is a better place???

FBB00C66-18DD-40F3-AA21-F8103B180979 (resized).jpeg
#427 5 months ago

Hey guys, please explain to me how any of this relates to the thread topic

#428 5 months ago

The ratings make no sense. New JP is not that great of a game.

-9
#429 5 months ago

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.

The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.

Why is this game #1?

#430 5 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Hey guys, please explain to me how any of this relates to the thread topic

Is this the scintillating info you've been missing?!

Quoted from Charles_Kline:

The ratings make no sense. New JP is not that great of a game.

Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.

-1
#431 5 months ago
Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.
The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.
Why is this game #1?

POTW!

#432 5 months ago
Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.
The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.
Why is this game #1?

Change "castle" to another word and that sentence applies to lots of other games too. The difference with MM that makes it stand out is the humor, great theme integration and pure fun, something many other games lack.

#433 5 months ago
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

Change "castle" to another word and that sentence applies to lots of other games too. The difference with MM that makes it stand out is the humor, great theme integration and pure fun, something many other games lack.

MM being #1 is just MADNESS!

#434 5 months ago
Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.
The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.
Why is this game #1?

The same thing what makes other game great. Flipper spacing.

#435 5 months ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

MM being #1 is just MADNESS!

Would you say it's... MEDIEVAL Madness?

-9
#436 5 months ago
Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.
The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.
Why is this game #1?

MM is #1 because of extreme manipulation and nostalgia that’s it. Its a good old relic of the long ago past. There is simply not much to it in reality. The castle shot with simple layout is so passé. Even Brian Eddy can’t believe it’s number one. It is manipulated to be there to keep Stern from being number one by the haters. In fact all 3 and soon to be 4 old timer relics from the last century are there to keep all pinball companies down and keep the old timer machines up there for their own satisfaction. Even George G. said he cannot figure out why MB is up there at all. Its good but not that good. Lol

Any good player can see all MM has to offer 3 or 4 times over in one setting. Boring after the 50th time and the very reason all most all owners move it out. GZ blows it away in every regard.

#437 5 months ago
Quoted from Bmad21:

I watched a video on MM and game play is just, shoot the castle.
The layout looks too simple if you can master basic flipper skills you got this game down pat.
Why is this game #1?

What's your high score on it? Have you completed BFTK?

#438 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

MM is #1 because of extreme manipulation and nostalgia that’s it. Its a good old relic of the long ago past. There is simply not much to it in reality. The castle shot with simple layout is so passé. Even Brian Eddy can’t believe it’s number one. It is manipulated to be there to keep Stern from being number one by the haters. In fact all 3 and soon to be 4 old timer relics from the last century are there to keep all pinball companies down and keep the old timer machines up there for their own satisfaction. Even George G. said he cannot figure out why MB is up there at all. Its good but not that good. Lol

I don't know about "extreme manipulation" or an effort to "keep all pinball companies down".

seems-a-little-crazy (resized).jpg

It's just been around for a long time, so a lot of people have experienced it, and the preponderance of feedback is overwhelmingly positive. I think it is probably more approachable than a lot of the newer machines, and dangles the carrot better than some newer stuff with easier shots like the castle. There are also many virtual versions you can play on everything from phones and ipads to on Steam with FX3 which keeps it accessible, something that isn't true of modern sterns or JPPs, and probably helps it a bit. Over the last few years, many newer players first experience in pinball is virtual which then leads to the greater hobby as a whole.

#439 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

MM is #1 because of extreme manipulation and nostalgia that’s it. Its a good old relic of the long ago past. There is simply not much to it in reality. The castle shot with simple layout is so passé. Even Brian Eddy can’t believe it’s number one. It is manipulated to be there to keep Stern from being number one by the haters. In fact all 3 and soon to be 4 old timer relics from the last century are there to keep all pinball companies down and keep the old timer machines up there for their own satisfaction. Even George G. said he cannot figure out why MB is up there at all. Its good but not that good. Lol
Any good player can see all MM has to offer 3 or 4 times over in one setting. Boring after the 50th time and the very reason all most all owners move it out. GZ blows it away in every regard.

Might be on to something I just checked the last couple ratings and someone just gave MM and AFM 10s and JP and GDZ 1's..like wtf dude is that really necessary?!

#440 5 months ago
Quoted from KozMckPinball:

What's your high score on it? Have you completed BFTK?

Umm he doesn't need to dude, he watched a video on it. All you have to do is master all the shots and its easy...duuuuh!

#441 5 months ago
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

Change "castle" to another word and that sentence applies to lots of other games too. The difference with MM that makes it stand out is the humor, great theme integration and pure fun, something many other games lack.

"Star Gate" is knocking I will give credit though to "attack from Mars" you can just spend the day hitting the middle all day long.

#442 5 months ago
Quoted from BlakeWI:

Might be on to something I just checked the last couple ratings and someone just gave MM and AFM 10s and JP and GDZ 1's..like wtf dude is that really necessary?!

It's all about Williams really. Looking at the top 100 as of today the only table Gottlieb that comes up is Star Gate and that's after a splattering of Bally Williams dominating the top 100.

From what I heard GDZ offers more than just shoot the castle type deal.

#443 5 months ago
Quoted from BlakeWI:

Might be on to something I just checked the last couple ratings and someone just gave MM and AFM 10s and JP and GDZ 1's..like wtf dude is that really necessary?!

Same reason many pumped GZ to all 10’s.

#444 5 months ago
Quoted from bigguybbr:

I don't know about "extreme manipulation" or an effort to "keep all pinball companies down".
[quoted image]
It's just been around for a long time, so a lot of people have experienced it, and the preponderance of feedback is overwhelmingly positive. I think it is probably more approachable than a lot of the newer machines, and dangles the carrot better than some newer stuff with easier shots like the castle. There are also many virtual versions you can play on everything from phones and ipads to on Steam with FX3 which keeps it accessible, something that isn't true of modern sterns or JPPs, and probably helps it a bit. Over the last few years, many newer players first experience in pinball is virtual which then leads to the greater hobby as a whole.

Or - an even simpler explanation - most people don’t revisit their ratings. When I joined Pinside almost 10 years ago, MM was hands down #1. Fast forward to today and it’s still a great game - just not #1 for me personally. I try to keep my ratings on balance and up to date. I don’t do 10s or 1s as nothing is perfect or so abhorrent I wouldn’t play it if given the chance.

#445 5 months ago

TS is better than MM

#446 5 months ago

That’s one of our pins I have not spent enough time on. I have got to get reinforced stand ups for ours (thanks for reminding me)

#447 5 months ago

Is GZ about to be dethroned as #1?

-1
#448 5 months ago
Quoted from KozMckPinball:

Is GZ about to be dethroned as #1?

Only if the old timers keep giving it 1s and 10s to the ancient relic MM.

#449 5 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

Or - an even simpler explanation - most people don’t revisit their ratings. When I joined Pinside almost 10 years ago, MM was hands down #1. Fast forward to today and it’s still a great game - just not #1 for me personally. I try to keep my ratings on balance and up to date. I don’t do 10s or 1s as nothing is perfect or so abhorrent I wouldn’t play it if given the chance.

I’m sure almost no one revises their ratings and most are written after their first reaction. This also plays in to ratings where some of the simple games are going to fair better. MM or AFM are games you can walk up to never having played and make it through a few missions and experience a fair amount of what the game has to offer. GZ is a game you can get good at with extended play, but you have little to no chance of getting on a leaderboard with your first quarter unless you are a special talent, and a casual player might not even figure out how to start a mode with their first game. The rating system doesn’t ask that you have played 20 games before rating, so the depth of the code or story isn’t weighted as high as some would prefer.

I also agree with you on your ratings. A 10 is the perfect game with no room for improvement. A 1 is a game that if I walked by and it had a credit on it, I wouldn’t press start. With the number of categories that go into these ratings, nothing should really be a 10 or a 1.

My gripe with the rating system is a lot of the categories should be optional. I think there should be 5 core ratings (is it fun, gameplay, lighting/visuals, sound, artwork) and then a difficulty rating that lets it get ranked on a separate list. I think a ranking of the hardest vs the easiest pins would be a fun topic, and might help others to discover pins they might not know.

#450 5 months ago

I have MM and stern JP sitting next to each other, and while JP is way deeper MM has way shorter ball times and is way less forgiving on missed shots. That has been my experience when I compare a lot of old games to new games. Just an average player though. I think there is a place for both and I personally would not like my collection to be full of one or the other.

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