As EM's have a separate list, do you think there should be a separation for the modern lcd games?

Once the code update comes out for JJP POTC I think it will take over the #1`spot.

sad but true

If you going to die on a ridiculous hill, it should be a write in for Vacation America. It would be the Boaty McBoatFace vote of pinside standings
Boaty (resized).jpg

First, let me say I agree with you.

There is so much subjectivity here and different voters consider it differently. Examples (in addition to what you wrote):

- Does inclusion of a 15" LCD means inherent better rating than a traditional DMD?
- If so, then does inclusion of a larger 27" LCD mean inherent better rating than a smaller 15" LCD?
- If so, maybe ask yourself ... is a wide body pin better than a standard (because it's bigger)?
- Are "deep" rules really better than "normal" rules? Someone could restate this as "Are complex rules better than accessible rules"? Or, are big rulesets better than smaller ruleset?

While those were aspects of how technology might impact rating, some other aspects to consider

- Should build quality be included in a review?
- Should ability to manually repair a game using commonly available tools be a factor?

I suspect there'll be lots on different answers to the above, all being inconsistency applied to the ratings.

This speaks volumes as to how boring GnR shoots.

I don't care about the ratings but yeah highly overrated. Its a good solid 90's pin but doesn't hold up against the new stuff.

I like MM. I like JP. Heck I like DE:JP too. I like 8BD and Target Pool.

I like pinball. No chart or ranking will ever change that.

So you don’t think that I think that DP is a top 5 game for me? I guess I should reassess. Any opinion on what my top 5 should be?

I’ve been in the hobby over 15 years.

JP is one of the best pins ever imo. Great theme, art, code, layout.

I do love AFM and many older pins but the code and AV assets on new pins are way advanced from what was being done 25 years ago.

You know what's REALLY overrated?

You flipping your Halloween spot for $1k profit.

Medieval Madness is a great game but I wouldn't say it's number one of all time. I think the twilight zone was a much better game from that era. Even monster bash. It's hard to compare modern games with deeper code and video/audio assets. I don't really think either of these games should be number 1, but I don't think people really take it seriously anyways. I mean led zeppelin was number 1 at one point...

Hahaha, that’s funny shit right there.

The band or the pin?

True. It is.

Because the new games can’t compete with 30 year old games? That just doesn’t make sense. Should alpha numeric games have their own list so they don’t have to compete with DMD games?

it never was number 1. The ratings are flawed. People don't give legit reviews. They rate and buy games based upon what people think are popular. Not based upon actual play value. Sure MM has a great toy, but the layout is lackluster and the rules are meh. Plus you have 5 other games with the exact same layout and rules. Should not be ranked as high as it is. MM lasted 3 months in my collection. Was not worth keeping.

o no he didn't

Yet thats a slightly better deal then the EC Woz he has listed for 17k.

All modern stern games seemed based on crappy movies and feel the exact same. Which crappy movie theme can you handle and will age gracefully? Do you want to understand the encyclopedia of rules? Do you want to play 45 mins to get back to where you just were in the game?

Williams games are more straight forward rules wise. Some are original themes MM AFM etc. Some are based on crappy movies as well. For example shadow, demo man, judge dredd etc. Which theme can you handle in your gameroom? Will the more attainable ruleset be appealing over time?

I think it all boils down to preference, what you grew up playing, and most importantly what you like! Buy and play what you enjoy. Ratings are pointless.

M

I was playing Medieval Madness at a pizza place today and the flippers were very weak compared to what I'm used to. Is that how Williams games were? Or is that poor maintenance? Or game settings? The flippers were powerful enough to hit any shot, but still felt... Weak. Am I crazy?

Probably a combination of worn flipper mechs, un-waxed playfield, and steeper legs.

"encyclopedia of rules?"

Well we all get old there's no shame in that.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the moat in afm.

still same shot, same layout. Minor changes doesn't make up for the fact it's pretty much the same game.

Who gives a shit? With every new game coming out, people are so quick to rate them 10/10 to justify their pre-order/small fortune spent, the ratings for newer games have been artificially inflated. Play what you like, damn the ratings.

And on that note, time to gangbang JP to a 8.0 at best….

Don’t worry. I like the game, but it’s not like-like. Stupid JP with her male friends. What? Why you looking at me like that. She’s a whore.

I sold one once to a guy who said his wife was a bodybuilder. That’s cool I honestly think the girl in the backglass looks alright who’s to judge.

So while I was loading it up with the perfect customer, everybody’s happy… a friend shows up and said “wow you finally sold that thing?”

It's weird enough when people refer to cars as female, let's leave the innocent pinball machines out of this

I have owned mm and i think there’s lots of games that are better than it. We’re in a new Golden age of pinball. The days off mm on top are numbered.

JP > MM

IF it ever comes out. It does feel slightly unfinished in it's current state, which is a shame. I still think it's the modern game that truly deserves to be ranked with the top B/W titles, but there are probably too many haters for it to ever reach #1.

MM is very overrated IMO. I'm sure in its day it was freakin awesome, but it has been surpassed numerous times by now. Its still good, no doubt, but it hasn't deserved the #1 spot for a long time

what's hilarious, is that all the games 1-5 are not that great. 6-10 are better than the first group. With the exception of JJP GNR. That should be DE GNR instead.

No.

I think Mandalorian LE will briefly take the #1 spot, then get knocked back by pinsiders that want to keep the games they have in their collection ranked higher. We have seen this scenario play out many times. It would be cool to see Brian Eddy beat his own game from #1 with another one he designed albeit briefly though.

I own both and enjoy both. However, MM remains the King of the realm.

All hail the King!

nm

Interesting to see that PJ premium is ranked #2 but the JPLE's ranking isn't even in the top 10.

How about this customized filter? I think it removes a bit of the riffraff.. not totally happy with it.. but it's a bit better IMO

Custom list (resized).png

That is Awesome! (This will go in my book of favorite quotes)

This very thread makes your point.

Avoiding the JJP (and eventually Stern added) stuff, I found the filter from koji very interesting! I recreated it, which doesn't require much, he showed it all. I had never played with it.

In short, all he did was

1) Use only approved raters (pretty sure this is the default for official top 100 too)
2) Ignore ratings from raters that are no longer active (this isn't the top 100 default, I believe)
3) Enable a trimmed mean function to exclude outliers. Roughly speaking, this tosses out votes that are "extreme" (but I don't know the exact formula)

That's it!

EDIT: Well, not quite. As pointed out, he also required 250 votes. The info below is based on requiring 25 votes.

A result of using the custom view is that games are no longer grouped. You might think your favorite game at 30 has moved a lot further down, but that because the 17 variations of each recent Stern and JJP game are ranked individually.

If you look closer, you'll see interesting things such as

1) Stern JP Pro is rated about the same a CFTBL (#33 and #34)
2) However, #32 is MMr "LE"
3) Whereas the OG MM is #1
4) And the OG MMr (aka Standard) is #7
5) EHOH is #48 sandwiched between Deadpool LE and Torn Legacy LE

I think this link includes the filter settings

https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100/custom?gamefamily=mg&only_games_from=&only_games_to=&machine_manufacturer=&avgcalc=trimmed_mean&approved_raters_only=1&active_members_only=1&rate_max_age_months=0&minimum_ratings_count=25

He made it so only games with at least 250 ratings also.

I will say any game marked as a 10 out of 10 should get flagged. No game is perfect.

Also guys that hide there ratings do they know that makes there ratings not count towards the ratings?

I don't have an issue with Medieval Madness remaining number 1. Ratings mean very little to me, but I do kind of like the idea of an old William's pin from the golden era holding down the top spot. I had a MM about ten years ago, but the game play didn't quite justify the price tag. Looking back, I do wish I would have kept it.

Yeah, I definitely would not group the games.. particularly for Sterns, it seems like there are potentially major art, playfield and rule differences, to the extent, that I might rank one version particularly higher than another.. sometimes the pro, sometimes the premium.. but they can play with enough differences that it would definitelty affect how I would recommend them, if say, only one of those variants were released or available.

I was not trying to specifically remove or add any title to the list. I actually like JP... if someone offered me a choice to gift me one of the two machines, I'd need to give it some serious thought.. but these ratings are not the single overall impression of the game, they are rather a combination of Art, Sound, Toys, Gameplay etc. so although something like MM might begin to fade so far as our modern level of more complex and deep rules and shots, that is just a single facet of the ranking, (unless I am arbitrarily increasing another attribute, because I want my overall to be increased (which I think many people likely do...)).