It's only worth what someone pays for it. If someone paid $15,000 or more for it, it's worth it.

Best game ever.

It's worth exactly what the market says its worth.

I agree. How people feel about what the market values this game at is irrelevant. It is what it is.

Not necessarily. I think there are plenty of collectors who bought one years ago when they cost way less, but would never pay up for one today.

We have to be clear which definition of "worth" the OP has in mind.

Is it "worth" = "investment value"

or is it "worth" = "value as compared to other pins"

If it is the first definition, then there is little need for argument. It has proven market value so go ahead and buy it for speculative purposes.

If it is the second definition, then it is any reference to market value that is irrelevant.

Most of the debate on this thread is between people who are defending different definitions.

I love MM. It's awesome. But I can't fathom selling 3 modern huo LE quality machines to own one.

Actually your scenario proves the opposite.

In your imaginary showroom you have a AVLE, RSLE, XMLE, BIBLE and MM that you show the collector. You then say:

3 months ago the Avengers was selling for 7.5k, now you can buy it for 6.2k
6 months ago the X-men was selling for 7.5k, now you can buy it for 5.8k.
1 year ago Rolling Stones was 6.6k and now you can buy it for 5k.
1 year ago AC/DC was 6.8k now it is worth 10k and climbing.
3-4 years ago MM was 6k and now it is worth 13k+.

If he was a true collector AC/DC and MM would be the only 2 he would consider.

Unless you are totally committed to the theme and in love with the game play, no collector is going to invest in a depreciating pin.

Your theory has already been done. Besides Metallica LE, all the machines you mentioned started out at a MSRP and the market has driven them up to their current prices. Just because you reset the prices doesn't mean the market wouldn't adjust itself quickly to current price levels. You never changed the supply or demand for the product in your scenario. Your 7k MM would be Metallica LE all over again.

Who owns MM in Michigan? & is willing to let me try it. Very curious how it plays.
Can't imagine paying that kind of $$ on a pinball machine. If I didn't have a wife a kids, that last statement probably would read differently. LOL

Not sure why this is a point of discussion. Of course the game is worth what it fetches... the pricing on these is no different than a house. The price is dictated by what the market bares. So what if someone says they would never pay $13K for a pinball... if another person does, then it obviously carries that value. Not to say that value can't drop. There are also regional differences... again, just like a house. There is no way my house would carry it's value if you picked it up and plopped it down in the middle of Ohio. Zero chance.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I don't think you could have distorted my example more. You assumed the very premise that my scenario very clearly stated had to be removed ~ that the investment/market value of the pins be disregarded. You also managed to get the salesperson to show up and start giving the potential buyer all sorts of price fluctuation info. That just undermines the objectivity of the whole experiment.

I don't even know what you mean by "true" collector. I guess there are a lot of "false" ones out there. Sounds to me like your "true" collector is a jackass who cares less about the machine and more about what it will be worth x years from now.

Anyone who is buying the machine to have in their collection until they themselves are put NIB six feet under the ground, will not, or at least should not, care about how much the machine will be worth in the future. So from this standpoint, the pin must speak for itself.

If you don't find my fictional scenario compelling, fine. But don't try to suggest that I actually created a self-defeating argument.

Yea I'm going to have to ask who has one in WI? Need to play it, for science. And because I haven't played it since '97

It's really simple. If you love the game and have the money, it's worth it. I owned a beauty for 3 months and honesty didn't like it as much as AFM/MB. So, for me, it wasn't worth the money. When I sold it after 3 months, I made 2k profit without even trying.

I came here to post almost exactly this. If you can afford it and you like it, it's worth it.

It's a great game. I think that MB has more raw fun, but MM is deeper. Can't go wrong with either.

The two A list games that I don't get are TZ and AFM. To each his own.

Okay, I guess I don't get your hypothetical.

Maybe I am reading into it, but it seems you didn't like how I described a collector. Anybody that is going to buy NIB, unless they are in love with the theme, game play, or thinks of money as no object is going to have appreciation/depreciation of the machine as a consideration when purchasing the item. That is why things are marketed as "Collectors Items"- Coins, comics, now pins are falling into that category. When a LE sells for 4k more than a Premium we have reached that point where people are buying pins as an investment. Not a hypothetical, just check Metallica. (I personally don't have the money or inclination to do that, but just because I don't do it, it doesn't mean it is not reality.)

I don't know how you can say I didn't find it compelling, as I was the only one to find it compelling enough to at least discuss it. You are right, I did interject things that were taken out of your scenario, I just couldn't grasp taking economic considerations out of the equation.

Yes. See numerous market discussions above.

Why? I believe MM and MB represent the pinnacle of design(except for perhaps rules) from the greatest manufacturer and design teams. To many serious collectors, owning the best is worth paying a premium.

look at the pinmap, there are like 3 of them within 45 min drive of you that are on location.

MM is a super fun game! I had one for a while but needed the $$$ more at this stage in life so it left. If I had more $$ it would have been a keeper.

Organ Piper Pizza here I come!! Better still be there or I'm coming after you Hiiton!! I know where you're going to be Tuesday!

Exactly,,,Would owners of MM that bought before the <$7k still buy one at today's prices?
And I have seen enough times when folks do find a deal,,, they just flip it for the money.

Who said I wanted to sell it? It's a great game. That's not in discussion here.

The question asked by the OP was "is MM worth the money it fetches" ie $15,000.

My answer is no, it is not worth $15,000.

As Markmon says, it is not worth
4x whitewaters (or whatever the qty is)
5x Dr Who
3x TZ
Etc etc

Fortunately if I wanted another 6 sys11s I wouldn't need to sell any machine to fund them.

The problem in NZ is supply ... Bad Cats and Pinbots don't grow on trees around here.

rd.

I find that the people who don't own it say it's not worth it and those that do say it is! I do have one that I have owned for 8 years but you have to question the prices, I would sell MM before I got rid of my Whodunnit! I guess it's like anything that people collect, there has to be something at the top that people aspire to!

Exactly my point.

I was happy to pay $6000 nzd for my MM, and spend another $2000 doing it up to collectors quality with new playfield and cabinet decals etc.

But would I buy one for $15,000 USD (18,000 NZD) ... Which is what they are fetching now?

No.

People are losing sight of the OPs original question.

rd.

The question you should ask is how many MM owners who bought for sub $7500 would sell theirs today for $15,000.

agreed, so many more pins that are more fun and challenging to play

right on bro!!

GUYS I JUST FOUND ONE FOR $93,600.... thats like 15 new sterns. I'm sorry but MM is not worth that much i mean come on!

You are trying to equate fun factor with price. That's not the right way to think about it. Consider, say, a vintage toy from the 1930s that's worth $10,000. It it $10,000 worth of fun? No. It's nostalgia. It's rare. It's worth money for many reasons besides fun.

For me no, I enjoy other titles far more. I enjoy most newer Stern games more. I played it again a few weeks ago at the pinball hall of fame and had enough by the last ball. And I did stack the damsel, catapult and joust multiball, that's fun but the game always leaves me feeling its missing something, It's Monty Python missing Monty Python if that makes any sense. I hate to Compare it to Indiana Jones 4 but its kind of the same bash the big toy over and over. Cactus Canyon on the other hand I liked far better even with the simple code. For me in the end it gets down to cost, I'm with too-many-pins on this one, I can get pretty close to three new in box games for the kind of money a restored one gets. Would I own one for say five or six thousand, sure but not where it is now. But hey it's pinball one man's trash is another man's treasure.

The point is that today's prices wouldn't be what they are if people weren't buying them at those prices!

Exactly! It really is missing the point to say that "MM isn't four times more fun than (fill in the blank)". That isn't the point at all.

That's like saying a Ferrari isn't 8 times faster than a Camaro, so Ferrari's are overpriced.

I bought one saterday, so i think that qualifies me on the second part of the quote, so the answer is yes.

And enjoying it every minute, what a fun pin

I bought mine for $5.7k about 5 years ago. I wouldn't buy it for today's prices. However, I'm not going to sell it for today's prices either. It has the best combination of fun, challenge, depth, and humor IMHO.

Not sure what you paid. Again, the consensus is that at $10k to $15k, would you buy one,,, and the answer is no. Not too many people are willing to put that much money into one Pin at today's prices.

Unless it is
(A) Your favorite
(B) Got the money
(C) Found a great deal
(D) All of the above...

Not to me.

The Ferrari analogy isn't a good one because speed is only one thing that makes a Ferrari enjoyable. If a Ferrari isn't 8 times as enjoyable as a Camaro then I think it is overpriced.

First and foremost, a pin is supposed to be "fun", otherwise why would you even have it ?

IMO, there are several problems with saying stuff like "MM must be worth $15K because the market says it is".

1) It tends to overlook or at least underestimate how emotional the market is. Everyday tons of people complain about gas prices and how they skyrocket everytime there is fear of a hurricane or a refinery strike or terrorism threats, etc. I never hear anyone say "Oh well, gas must be worth $6 a gallon because that is what people are paying. Never.

2) Saying the market dictates value often leads to a devaluing of that commodity at some future time. Ten years ago, property in Florida was highly valued. Then suddenly, not so much. How come ? It was still sunny. Still a fun place to go. But now the market is telling me that it isn't very valuable. Will the market one day tell me that my MM is not as valuable, and will I be forced to believe it ?

3) It reduces everything to "will I get my money back out of this" ? There is no better way to kill a hobby. However, pinball as "pure" hobby is already dead, so there's no sense beating that dead horse.

There are more, but I'm tired.

For some it is, for most it is not

I don't think a new Corvette is worth what they are asking for them, luckily there are enough people who disagree with me and will buy them. I think Ryan's question is rhetorical, or perhaps it's more of a poll than a question. The answer comes from looking at who owns MM today, to those people it's worth it's current market value for the most part.

I think others have said it best, it's current worth is just what people are paying for it today. That's all there is to the question of it's current value. Future value? No one has a clue.

A big problem with many of the explanations is that they try to isolate the equation to standalone parts. But reality can't be explained by small parts of the equation, it's value is determined every time a buyer and seller make a transaction.

The real mystery is trying to guess what the future holds. The only thing we can know for certain is what something sold for in the past, whether ten years or ten seconds ago. Not even the owner who will list his table tomorrow morning can know how much he will get for it.

Bubble?? If the majority are buying it because they think it will go up in value then that is the classic indicator of any bubble.

Is MM pricing a bubble, is pinball generally in a bubble? Time will tell, but the indicators can be found with some research. Take a poll of pinball machine owners who have purchased any table in the last year, the last six months, the last three months... ask them if they would sell their table for what they paid for it. Then ask them why they would sell it, if the majority would sell it because they think the prices will fall... bubble. But if they won't sell them for those prices, and instead insist that the value for their machine has increased then... no bubble, simply current market value.

Long winded I know, anyway this is from an article on TrendingMarkets.com and while it is referring to the current bond bubble it can apply to any bubble I believe.

The three keys to identifying any economic bubble are as follows.

1. There must be a 'significant' increase in money flows towards the asset in question as was in the dot.com bubble, the collector car bubble, the housing bubble, and currently into bond funds.

2. The asset must be over priced compared to historical metrics e.g. home price to income ratio were significantly higher than previous measures during the height of the housing bubble. Currently bond yields are now at historic lows.

3. The asset in question must have recently undergone a tremendous increase in its supply. Record amount of debt and deficits.

I have no intention of selling mine either. But, everything I own can be had for a crazy price (Neo set that example ). $20K for a MM sure. I'll disappoint my wife and girls for that kind of money. Color DMD, LED throughout, Dragon mod, merlin mod, castle mod. She sure sparkles.

And in 2 years who knows, this thread that may look like this was a steal.

I like the game. Could have bought a nice one, not great but nice, on Friday. 10k. Couldn't pull the trigger. Bought mople instead and will spend the difference on beer. This is not the outcome I would have predicted.... But there u go.

It also doesn't make sense because its 2 completely different auto makers , alot of the games people are using as comparison here are Williams Bally games (the same maker ) A better comparison would be one Ferrari model versus another Ferrari model . But then again just like pinball it's alot of personal opinion , But It seems that the Ferraris that have sold for the most money are rarest of them MM is not really rare , But enough people are willing to pay 15K for them that they are selling for that much .

People forget that this is a relatively new hobby-

Most of the B/W machines were NOT going into a home market, they were going into businesses. They have only been recently morphed into the collectibles market from an operational market. 19k of the 20k TAF were on location, if not more. I don't know if there is enough historical data on the pinball collecting market for anybody to predict how high the ceiling is. Gary only recently started mass producing LE machines.

Is it too high? Right now, I don't see people dumping them. That is the only real indicator we have for value.

Fun factor is a different beast- That is subjective.

^This

$15K is a ton of money for any pinball machine, but MM is obviously one of the few that can command that kind of coin. I bought mine back in 2004 for $4650 and I was told I was crazy for spending that, but I loved the game, and never even thought if I would ever make money on it if I decided to sell. 9 years later, it's probably worth in the $13 - $15K range, and I have no desire whatsoever to sell it! 5 years from now it could be worth $5K more or $5K less, won't make it any less of a great game.

Nope, not worth it......but I have no problem with it being high

I turned one down in '07 for £2500. Yes, its was in need of restoration but the day i get my hands on a time machine (preferrably delorean) will be the day i go back to that very moment simply to give myself the biggest face slap in history.

Played it every day in college ('97-'00) and came to love it as a brother. Tried to buy it many times and always fell short. Not because i couldnt afford it, but because i realised my love for keeping my money outweighed my love for the game. Still true to this day.

In fact, theres a very nice one for sale on ebay UK right now for the princely sum of £8995 ( $13850ish):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Medieval-Madness-Pinball-Machine-/290916715538?pt=UK_Video_Games_Coin_Operated_MJ&hash=item43bbfccc12

Worth it? Not to me. It sure is nice to look at though...

That's true - but the same one was up for £9995 a couple of months ago and didn't sell...

Your brother is not worth ~14K? What has happened to family values?

Truth is, i know nothing of brotherly love. (oo err) I was an only child.

Maybe one day a nice MM may buy me weekly beers and go hunting with me, although i bet it would have a hard time finding good walking shoes. If it cant do at least that for 14K im still out.

MM and AFM are very similar, I imagine you like the theme of MM better?

MM, and any game, is only worth what people are willing to pay. Therefore, it looks like MM can be a 15k game. Topic closed.

I don't own one and I think the price on MM will continue to rise.