(Topic ID: 195186)

Is LCD bad for pinball?


By AJB4

2 years ago



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  • 111 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by daudioguy
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    There are 111 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 2 years ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    LCD monitors in a pinball is just a Baby Pacman all over to me. If I wanted to look at a monitor, I'd go play a video game.

    The video game comparision is inaccurate. Baby Pac is literally a video game with a joystick - then you play the pinball part - then back to the video game. An LCD on a pinball is a score/info display. Period. Try playing WOZ or Hobbit - there are zero "video modes". There's no joystick. It's a score display.

    -2
    #52 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    The video game comparision is inaccurate. Baby Pac is literally a video game with a joystick - then you play the pinball part - then back to the video game. An LCD on a pinball is a score/info display. Period. Try playing WOZ or Hobbit - there are zero "video modes". There's no joystick. It's a score display.

    Or just try WoZ, but pass on The Hobbit...unless you really, really like multiball.

    #53 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Or just try WoZ, but pass on The Hobbit...unless you really, really like multiball.

    Pass on it if you want to miss out on the best game of the past few years. Your loss.

    #54 2 years ago

    DMDs are only as good as the person creating the images. I love the animation on TWD etc. Compare this to GOT. The Display is woeful, blurry captured screen shots. Now think how much better it could potentially look using images from the show on a LCD. If there was an upgrade kit to change GOT to a LCD I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

    #55 2 years ago

    LCD is cool
    its been a long time coming !
    LCD Hardware is dirt cheap now'

    Graphics/software thats gonna cost !

    So BOM goes down
    Skilled programmers goes up ?

    #56 2 years ago

    LSD is bad for pinball. Winners don't use drugs.

    #57 2 years ago

    Hasn't everyone complained about there still being old dated dmds in games, and why haven't they moved to lcd's pretty much since Avengers? Now there are lcd everyone is complaining they want their dots back?

    #58 2 years ago
    Quoted from Dr-Willy:

    Hasn't everyone complained about there still being old dated dmds in games, and why haven't they moved to lcd's pretty much since Avengers? Now there are lcd everyone is complaining they want their dots back?

    If the content is going to look like poor 90's CD-ROM, then yes - I'd rather have proper charming retro graphics on the score display than poor font/animation/transitions on an LCD. Currently I find almost any DMD game with ColorDMD in DotsXL to look better and feel more "pinball" than any of the LCD games so far.

    #59 2 years ago
    Quoted from Dr-Willy:

    Hasn't everyone complained about there still being old dated dmds in games, and why haven't they moved to lcd's pretty much since Avengers? Now there are lcd everyone is complaining they want their dots back?

    this is extremely weird use of the word "everyone".

    #60 2 years ago

    Quite honestly, I never felt like DMD's added much to game play either. That is why I resisted converting my DMD's to ColorDMD for so long. Now a LCD mounted in the center of the play-field that you are constantly looking at (like in Full Throttle) so it can give you "on-the- fly" game information/updates and/or instructions makes sense.

    #61 2 years ago

    When I play machines like that, I find myself wishing they would program the machines with the simple, bold, graphics that they were forced to use on DMDs. ... (just in higher resolution for the new screens.)

    The screen isn't the game, it's just a user-interface, simplify it so I can absorb it with the quickest of glances. Leave the movie clips for attract mode.

    But I can't tell if that's a legitimate insight, or just me being a stodgy old man.

    #62 2 years ago

    I can't even see why this is a debate. Score reels worked but were fiddly and noisy. Electronic Numeric displays worked better and were silent. Alpha Numeric gave us more options than before. DMD was great for it's time and made everything before feel outdated for 20 years. Color DMD helps ALOT but to be honest, LCD is easier, cheaper and better. Yeah there will be that awkward period (that we are IN) where they're figuring out the tech and especially how to implement it, but it'll pass.

    I really think Stern should go back a year or two and redo some recent titles with LCD for the next run. I'd love to see GOT or Walking Dead with the LCD screen.

    #63 2 years ago
    Quoted from gunstarhero:

    I can't even see why this is a debate. Score reels worked but were fiddly and noisy. Electronic Numeric displays worked better and were silent. Alpha Numeric gave us more options than before. DMD was great for it's time and made everything before feel outdated for 20 years. Color DMD helps ALOT but to be honest, LCD is easier, cheaper and better. Yeah there will be that awkward period (that we are IN) where they're figuring out the tech and especially how to implement it, but it'll pass.
    I really think Stern should go back a year or two and redo some recent titles with LCD for the next run. I'd love to see GOT or Walking Dead with the LCD screen.

    They should redo the playfield art on GoT while they're at it...

    #64 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    They should redo the playfield art on GoT while they're at it...

    I didn't think it was THAT bad but yeah, a minor restyle probably wouldn't hurt.

    #65 2 years ago

    These types of threads remind me of the early 80s when some computer programmers were asking if color was bad for programming, back when monochrome monitors were the norm. They have to keep up with the times, evolve or look like a relic. Case in point this post below:

    Quoted from Crile1:

    LCD is great for pinball because it is contemporary. When I went to the pinball hall of fame in Vegas, the only pin that was constantly surrounded by a group (not just those playing) of people was The Hobbit. Why? Because the large LCD provided a completely different visual experience for the onlooker. Yes, the game is on the playfield, but the onlooker needs something, too. I think the LCD will be a huge plus for games on route because they catch the eye. Plus, younger people are expecting the added technology. LCD games make recent DMD games look archaic, just by the display alone. I really don't think the young player or the new pinball enthusiast cares as much about backglass, but would rather want the newest, latest, and greatest (perceived) technology.

    I totally agree because pinball manufacturers very much need to court new and younger audiences, as the traditional older audiences race towards retirement and will ultimately spend less. It's like when the Cadillac and Corvette brands saw that their audience kept skewing older and older every year, it horrified them and they had to change their product and marketing because they need younger people in the mix for long term business viability. Same with pinball, they very much will need younger audiences to survive long term and that naturally means taking advantage of the latest tech when possible to look current, or as current as a pinball machine can.

    #66 2 years ago

    LCD is great but most implementations I have seen are all over the board. From what I have played, Batman, Aerosmith, Dialed In, and Full Throttle are good, Star Wars and Hobbit are confusing at best. As this is a new technology it will eventually find it's sweet spot. I think if they can simplify what they are trying to present it will be more effective than throwing everything that you can at the screen.

    #67 2 years ago

    LCD is the eventual evolution from DMD.

    1tpzdw (resized).jpg

    #68 2 years ago

    Eventual nothing. The Future is Now. Does anyone really have DMD games on the way..? Besides the "CGC Remakes" which are really just aping it anyway using a LCD in a DMD style.

    #69 2 years ago

    LSD certainly was a game changer.

    IMG_7533 (resized).PNG

    #70 2 years ago

    I personally like the older DMD style

    #71 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    LSD certainly was a game changer.

    And the install... so simple!

    #72 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    If anything, LCD probably lowers the cost of the machine to the manufacturer. It's obvious an LCD screen is cheaper than a DMD, and I would also doubt that programming for it is any more expensive -- video editors and digital graphic artists are ubiquitous and tend to skew young. They're a dime a dozen, and can use any major industry standard tools to do the video. Meanwhile, people who can do DMD art are much less common and probably more senior members of the industry, and need knowledge of proprietary software. in other words more expensive.
    anyway, it's not like Stern wasn't making severely minimalistic playfields before the LCD anyway.

    Everyone has cameras now too... I guess everyone is a film maker?

    ubiquitous are the people who can mash stuff together. Talent to create... that's still talent.

    All one needs to do is look at how things evolved from WoZ to Hobbit to begin to realize it takes real effort and creativity to merge existing film properties into a pinball game.

    #73 2 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Pinball is....pinball - it's mechanical! Let's concentrate on that.
    The display methods are incidental no matter if they are mechanical reels or super dooper MASSIVE (stupid) LED screens.
    It must be remembered that pinball is a MECHANICAL game.
    Try to move away from that and guess what - - you have a video game!

    If you believe these screens are incidental, then you're oblivious. I would suggest they are the key to opening up pinball to a wider market and saving the game. Not only will they help draw in customers because of their visual appeal, but they really are integral to making the game accessible to a wider audience. These games are maps to the game play and explain to more inexperience player what the goals and awards are.

    Let's face it--no one on this forum is the average player. We "get it", and if we don't, we can figure it out. Honestly, pinball is somewhat intimidating to the average person who doesn't know what to do, except aimlessly hit the flippers to keep the ball from draining. These monitors spell it out, and will make the game more inviting.

    Evolve or die. Make pinball commercially viable via monitors and video, or pack it in. The monitors make the modern complex game appealing and accessible to the average person and are the games only chance of surviving as anything other than an antiquated passtime.

    #74 2 years ago
    Quoted from albummydavis:

    I would suggest they are the key to opening up pinball to a wider market and saving the game.

    I would suggest making games more affordable is the key.

    #75 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I would suggest making games more affordable is the key.

    LOL. Yeah, that might help the poor schmucks like us who put them in their houses. But the average person who is going to pump a few bucks in at a time, the price of the game doesn't matter one bit.

    #76 2 years ago
    Quoted from albummydavis:

    LOL. Yeah, that might help the poor schmucks like us who put them in their houses. But the average person who is going to pump a few bucks in at a time, the price of the game doesn't matter one bit.

    Matters to ops.

    Cheaper games, placed at more locations, make money back faster, can be replaced sooner, and more used games for the home market.

    #77 2 years ago

    Case in point.

    I went bowling last night and had a good view of the gameroom. During our three games I saw zero people play either of the brand new machines with their large LCD displays. However I saw several people play a lowly old ToM with it's orange dot display.

    #78 2 years ago

    LCD is bad for newer games without them. For the non pinhead buyer, they look dated compared to the games with huge full color display.

    #79 2 years ago
    Quoted from gunstarhero:

    Matters to ops.
    Cheaper games, placed at more locations, make money back faster, can be replaced sooner, and more used games for the home market.

    Games that earn is far more important than their initial cost...

    That's why Ops can run games that cost 10s of thousands of dollars. They earn, then they sell them for their residual value.

    #80 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Games that earn is far more important than their initial cost...
    That's why Ops can run games that cost 10s of thousands of dollars. They earn, then they sell them for their residual value.

    I'm not going to assume you don't know ops... but the ones I know are very choosy in this era of $6K pins.

    #81 2 years ago
    Quoted from Axl:

    LCD is bad for newer games without them. For the non pinhead buyer, they look dated compared to the games with huge full color display.

    Yet dated-looking animation and font make LCD games ironically look MORE dated than DMDs.

    Retro Dots=cool.
    Bad HD animation=lame.

    All the ops I know say Aerosmith isn't earning well compared to the other games. So - an LCD isn't some kind of amazing game changer for players. Everyone has an LCD in their pocket. It's not a big deal. On a pinball, it's merely a score display. A minor piece of what pinball is all about.

    #82 2 years ago
    Quoted from Dr-Willy:

    Hasn't everyone complained about there still being old dated dmds in games, and why haven't they moved to lcd's pretty much since Avengers? Now there are lcd everyone is complaining they want their dots back?

    Screw that, I want my score reels back. (just not the crappy Gottlieb ones)

    #83 2 years ago

    This discussion highlights one of the reasons I bought into the Multimorphic P3 - I don't need to look at the back box for anything. All the gameplay, instructions and scores are right on the playfield, either the digital video portion or the physical portion and I can keep my focus in the game. To my mind, that's a great combination.

    I'm hoping to be able to drive an external monitor that I will wall-mount near the machine so folks can observe the full game easily.

    #84 2 years ago

    I didn't really think that there'd be this much animosity for LCD displays--considering the fact how well ColorDMD is doing, you'd think that everyone would've been clamoring for LCD displays much sooner.

    Quoted from Rarehero:

    So - an LCD isn't some kind of amazing game changer for players.

    I agree with this, and I agree with everyone else who has expressed their disdain for LCDs and used this as their reason; but maybe that's just because manufacturers really haven't spent enough time experimenting with what they can do with better display technology. Multimorphic seems to be really pushing boundaries. William's tried some cool things with Pinball 2000. It would've been neat to see them really dig into the platform a little more.

    Has anyone seen those transparent LCD panels? Imagine if pinball manufacturers used that in place of playfield glass. The glass itself could highlight shots (to help the player understand the ever deepening rules), aid in attract mode, augment artwork, etc. Expensive as hell? Yup. But in a community where people are willing to drop $300 on a regular sheet of glare free glass, I don't see it being an impossibility in the future. Wishful thinking, obviously, but a man can dream.

    Idk. Seems like I'm in the minority here. I like score reels, Alphanumeric, and DMD as much as anyone else does, but that's because they all have a copacetic relationship with the games they were used on. LCDs are still pretty new for pinball. I still maintain that give the software developers more time, they could come up with some pretty cool and creative ideas as to how to use them without losing the mechanical feel of the game.

    #85 2 years ago

    I would like to see lcds continue to evolve on the playfield. I hope that progression of the game of pinball is not hindered by costs.

    I wish there was no budget in pinball development.

    I know I wish.

    Colordmd I never knew how much I liked them until I saw them in action. Now a required mod.

    I would like to also see the lcds utilized in unique ways. On the playfield. Besides just a tv sitting there.

    I will truly enjoy watching lcds progress on pinball.

    #86 2 years ago
    Quoted from gunstarhero:

    I'm not going to assume you don't know ops... but the ones I know are very choosy in this era of $6K pins.

    Because they don't earn like their competition does. They are price sensitive because the pins don't really pull their weight, so the whole thing is 'for the passion' anyways.

    They aren't as price sensitive when they know the game will earn it's way. Pins aren't even in the same league.

    Those wall sized LED pacman and space invader games cost nearly 10k. And they are in every arcade... why? because they are earning.

    Look at the WoZ coin pusher... 50+k for a single unit!! http://www.bhmvending.com/Amusements/Elaut/elaut_wizard_of_oz.html

    #87 2 years ago
    Quoted from mbaumle:

    I agree with this, and I agree with everyone else who has expressed their disdain for LCDs and used this as their reason; but maybe that's just because manufacturers really haven't spent enough time experimenting with what they can do with better display technology. Multimorphic seems to be really pushing boundaries. William's tried some cool things with Pinball 2000. It would've been neat to see them really dig into the platform a little more.

    Multimorphic has the same problem on a bigger scale - their 90's quality art & animation makes the platform look less modern to the average person. At least a pinball with a janky LCD score display can still get by on an attractive traditional playfield. Mulitmorphic's downfall is they haven't invested in an excellent art director and animation team, and the platform depends purely on the screen's visuals. Revenge From Mars' art direction was great at the time - and resolution aside, still holds up today due to good art direction.

    #88 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Multimorphic has the same problem on a bigger scale - their 90's quality art & animation makes the platform look less modern to the average person. At least a pinball with a janky LCD score display can still get by on an attractive traditional playfield. Mulitmorphic's downfall is they haven't invested in an excellent art director and animation team, and the platform depends purely on the screen's visuals. Revenge From Mars' art direction was great at the time - and resolution aside, still holds up today due to good art direction.

    Right. A pin is just a pin. So it damn better have something special and new. The LCD is special and new. In my local arcade my op buddy told me Batman '66 prints money and Aerosmith is doing real well. The "players" may still go to GOT or Walking Dead, but all the casuals go to the LCD games.

    Anyways, the era of LCD is upon us, so it is what it is.

    #89 2 years ago

    I own WOZ and The Hobbit and the use of the LCD is beyond anything I could have ever hoped for. The LCD is a game changer especially when executed well as JJP does. I get a feeling of pride for our hobby when a nonpinhead comes over and plays those two games. Most of the time they are blown away before they even hit the start button, attract mode has a entirely new meaning!

    #90 2 years ago

    LCD definitely impacts gameplay as does sound and lighting, ok obviously it won't actually effect the balls path or any of that but overall gameplay? you better believe it, If you feel overly confused by the LCD then maybe you need to see a doctor or stick to older games, just not getting that argument at all.

    #91 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    All the ops I know say Aerosmith isn't earning well compared to the other games.

    I think that's a theme issue more than LCD/animation issue, If I walked up to a row of games lets say TWD, SW, GOT, even TH and AS especially as a younger person, I'm not and still feel this way in that AS is last on my list, I think its a fun pin by the way but its still an old band, most non pinheads would gravitate to AS over those DMDs mentioned simply due to the LCD.

    #92 2 years ago

    The screen and all the animations give spectators something nice to enjoy. Especially in The Hobbit, for example. I'm cool with it. I don't have time to watch it much when I'm playing, but when I'm waiting for my turn in a multiplayer game I definitely enjoy it.

    #93 2 years ago

    I think TH LCD (and WOZ) is very well done. It conveys a lot of great info at a glance. Keith has also done a great job with lighting on the PF where you can get a good feel of the game status without having to look at the LCD. I do wish the PF was a little better - but it is a very fun game as it sits right now.

    #94 2 years ago
    Quoted from gunstarhero:

    Anyways, the era of LCD is upon us, so it is what it is.

    That's fine, I'm not against it - im just sayin, when it's poorly done, I'm
    not going to be impressed just by the nature of it being an LCD. Hobbit is well done and impressive. Batman is a decent first attempt by Stern, as it pretty much follows a traditional DMD flow. Aerosmith is a decent first attempt at 100% original content...but, still looks a bit amateurish and dated. SW is a mess tho.

    #95 2 years ago

    I think Aerosmith's LCD animations kinda fit the style of the game and are a good fit overall. Totally agree that the Hobbit LCD is very well done, I think the best use to date. WOZ does a great job of using it to integrate the story with the game. Dialed in is interesting as it feels more like an animated back-glass.

    #96 2 years ago
    Quoted from AUKraut:

    LCD screens have definitely added to the cost of the machine. Not the actual cost of the LCD, but the programming resources, computer & HW improvements, and time needed to make it look good and match the gameplay. So if the total cost of a pin stays the same, other things will have to be cut instead.....

    if anything I think it speeds things up. Now they can use video clips without having to convert to dots. Cuts down on things dramatically. Cost of the LCD is peanuts compared to DMD's. If anything we should be getting MORE playfield toys. But instead of passing the profits on to quality and the customer, it's just more for them and less and less for us. They will continue to cut back and see what they can get away with before suckers stop buying.

    #97 2 years ago
    Quoted from apLundell:

    When I play machines like that, I find myself wishing they would program the machines with the simple, bold, graphics that they were forced to use on DMDs. ... (just in higher resolution for the new screens.)
    The screen isn't the game, it's just a user-interface, simplify it so I can absorb it with the quickest of glances. Leave the movie clips for attract mode.
    But I can't tell if that's a legitimate insight, or just me being a stodgy old man.

    Yep, all I need are quick glances. I mean, when my ball-in-play hits an animated playfield feature like, say, a vari-target or a messenger ball, I look at the target or messenger ball for all of what.. one second? That's all I need. Then my eyes are gone from there, moving elsewhere to follow the ball-in-play. Once I realize that a backglass or playfield display is pulling my eyes away to watch a movie clip or other tie-in, I'm turned off.

    When High Speed and Indiana Jones DMD first played those brief DMD video games (car race, swap cups) I worried if that was the beginning of a transition away from pinball and towards video. As long as game play is halted, I suppose I can look at the backglass display. Like when I earn an extra ball, it's gratifying to watch the short DMD animation to tell you what you've won. I always enjoyed the match animation sequences on the DMD games at game over. Many were artfully clever.

    I suspect the advent of LCD requires the programmers to avoid fears of under-using this new technology so we will see many examples of over-use. If an LCD just kept the scores present and occasionally threw up something to make me laugh, I'd be ok, rather than see clips from the license tie-ins and make me think how clever the programmers were, something which I'd rather not think about while playing. I'd rather laugh.

    Quoted from mbaumle:

    Multimorphic seems to be really pushing boundaries.

    I’ll say. I went to their site just now and Norton Safe Web blocked me, citing 14 computer threats.

    #98 2 years ago
    Quoted from gutz:

    LSD is bad for pinball. Winners don't use drugs.

    index (resized).jpg

    #99 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Aerosmith is a decent first attempt at 100% original content...but, still looks a bit amateurish and dated. SW is a mess tho.

    Agreed. Both of them look terrible compared to the redemption machines sitting next to them, which look amazing. But it's probably a case of those redemption machines having the budget for art because they sell for more and they sell more of them.

    Or Gary could just be cheap, which is probably a big part of it.

    -1
    #100 2 years ago

    Lcd is not bad for pinball is bad for old generation of pinball
    I m sure it will stop the increase of value for dmd generation

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