(Topic ID: 210020)

Is JJP pricing itself out of business

By JY64

3 years ago


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There are 396 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 8.
#201 3 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

I've never ever thought at the time of purchase "will I get my money back" if I did I don't think I would want to buy pinball machines anymore.

One can always come up with the money, although it is still limited for most people. If you could buy a new one or a barely used one plus an older era machine for the same price, which would you go for?

#202 3 years ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I think generally this is why the JJP stuff holds its value a little better than others. They sort of have limited production since the factory doesn't crank em out like stern and flood the market/distributors. They fly off the shelf from the distributors because most only get a few at a time. It seems to some extent that unless your willing to buy from any distributor there is always some sort of wait. Some of the big stern distributors get them by the truck load.
Not saying this is good or bad just the way it is.

The only games that seem to be reliably holding their value now are 90's W/B games that have no chance to get remade, DE and Sega games of the same era, and Sys 11 games of the 80's. They seem to have hit a ceiling and have even trended down a little bit in some cases, but those are probably the best bet as far as "holding value" is concerned.

#203 3 years ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I think generally this is why the JJP stuff holds its value a little better than others. They sort of have limited production since the factory doesn't crank em out like stern and flood the market/distributors. They fly off the shelf from the distributors because most only get a few at a time. It seems to some extent that unless your willing to buy from any distributor there is always some sort of wait. Some of the big stern distributors get them by the truck load.
Not saying this is good or bad just the way it is.

how much does a huo Hobbit go for vs. NIB? How bout a WOZ?

#204 3 years ago
Quoted from SilverBallz:

how much does a huo Hobbit go for vs. NIB? How bout a WOZ?

Rrwoz are around 9k and they generally sell huo for 8-8200. Not sure about th but they seem to have rebounded back into 7k+range for huo ...

#205 3 years ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I think generally this is why the JJP stuff holds its value a little better than others.

Not really the point of this thread, but I'm not sure this is accurate, HUO Hobbits are pretty affordable right now. Seems like once you're up into that $8k+ NIB bracket, games from most manufacturers lose a good bit of value on resale (except for the PPS/CGC remakes, thus-far).

#206 3 years ago

In regards to industry, JJP prices their titles so they stay in business and avoid the their mistakes of the past. The choices made for themes (not necessarily licenses), integration, and production numbers will determine the final outcome. Many people are waiting for the "next JJP title" today, as the rocket hit has not been achieved by the widest audience for any game since 2013.

The continued macro decrease in overall NIB sales (by all manufacturers) for home use over comparative increase in used game sales will not help based on the present economy changes.

People have a tendency to skew costs of used games based on the recent trends previous to 2017, which is not accurate based on general devaluation over time. Most new pinball machines will lose an average of $2500-3000, in the first 5 years of lifecycle starting from initial distributor sale as a norm, with the exception of a handful of titles. Only now some have come to this understanding.

Keep flipping.

#207 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

The continued macro decrease in overall NIB sales (by all manufacturers) for home use over comparative increase in used sales will not help based on the present economy changes.

Not sure this is accurate either. Are you saying there's a "macro decrease" in the number of NIB pinball machines sold in 2017 vs. 1994? If so, that seems totally plausible but also not relevant to today's pinball market -- TAF came out 25 years ago. If you're saying there's a decrease in number of NIB pinball machines sold over the past few years, where's the evidence? Stern moving into big new factory plus a handful of new manufacturers jumping onto the scene suggests just the opposite. Or are you predicting that this is the future of pinball?

#208 3 years ago

I am not comparing NIB sales today as to the past, as the market as shifted dramatically and is uneven for comparison. The largest shift is occuring with increases of used games in comparison to new due the present pricing thresholds that have been applied, as discussed in this thread. Additionally, people that previously might have been able to buy two NIB games as repeat buyers are often only buying one, purely out of price reasons, including many operators. The offset that cannot be calculated yet is how large the influx of new private buyers will continue and how long based on the present "pinball revival". I can only judge this aspect from my own regional area, not the entire world, which for now has been maintained.

#209 3 years ago

They look well built, better than most others but are far to expensive.

16
#210 3 years ago

The higher you go the harder you fall on the way down.

It's just the way it is. As time goes by these $9k and $10k games are gonna be replaced by newer games and the secondary market should settle in the $6k-$7k range. Simple supply and demand.

That's going to be the new normal, regardless of how its looks or how you think its built.

I buy pins today fully expecting to take a huge hit if i go to sell it 5 yrs from now. But i love to buy and play great new pins and the depreciation is worth it to me.

And life is way too short to worry about this shit anyhow.

-5
#211 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The higher you go the harder you fall on the way down.
It's just the way it is. As time goes by these $9k and $10k games are gonna be replaced by newer games and the secondary market should settle in the $6k-$7k range. Simple supply and demand.
That's going to be the new normal, regardless of how its looks or how you think its built.
I buy pins today fully expecting to take a huge hit if i go to sell it 5 yrs from now. But i love to buy and play great new pins and the depreciation is worth it to me.
And life is way too short to worry about this shit anyhow.

The question is what happens if game prices keep going up $500 a yr $15,000 and $12,00 a game does not seem like a sustainable business model 5 yr's from now

#212 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

The question is what happens if game prices keep going up $500 a yr $15,000 and $12,00 a game does not seem like a sustainable business model 5 yr's from now

Did you ever think you would paid $1 per play 7 years ago? How about having to pay $10 for a jar of honey? Price will drop when people stop buying. Until then pinball on!

#213 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

The question is what happens if game prices keep going up $500 a yr $15,000 and $12,00 a game does not seem like a sustainable business model 5 yr's from now

god you are worthless. Back at it on a Friday trying to troll some more...

You are a sad sad man. All your bumping and continual crap do is continue to show others you are a troll.

10
#214 3 years ago

The real question is how long will Stern last raising their prices and putting less on the playfield and serious quality control issues?

#215 3 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

The real question is how long will Stern last raising their prices and putting less on the playfield and serious quality control issues?

If they dont change something with the next release, it is obvious the tides have turned.

They can not continue to put out stripped back games, lacking or even alpha code at delivery, poor/cheaper construction, and frankly aweful issues with the spike 2 system at the current prices. Something has to change in a big way as they wont continue to float by on the coat tails of JJP prices or big themes selling games (look at GOTG as example and SW before that).

I am fine paying current prices if they can get their shit in order. I am done with striped back, crap code games, and poor quality at their current prices.

#216 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If they dont change something with the next release, it is obvious the tides have turned.
They can not continue to put out stripped back games, lacking or even alpha code at delivery, poor/cheaper construction, and frankly aweful issues with the spike 2 system at the current prices. Something has to change in a big way as they wont continue to float by on the coat tails of JJP prices or big themes selling games (look at GOTG as example and SW before that).
I am fine paying current prices if they can get their shit in order. I am done with striped back, crap code games, and poor quality at their current prices.

Good points. I know ALL companies have to make $$$. I understand that. But, who pays the salaries of these companies. WE DO!!! So if we are not happy, sales stop, people lose jobs, companies go out of business. Plain and simple. Sometimes when I look at these pins stripped down, I have to look twice to make sure I'm not looking at a Zizzle.

#217 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If they dont change something with the next release, it is obvious the tides have turned.
They can not continue to put out stripped back games, lacking or even alpha code at delivery, poor/cheaper construction, and frankly aweful issues with the spike 2 system at the current prices. Something has to change in a big way as they wont continue to float by on the coat tails of JJP prices or big themes selling games (look at GOTG as example and SW before that).
I am fine paying current prices if they can get their shit in order. I am done with striped back, crap code games, and poor quality at their current prices.

People have been saying the same thing about stern for 10 years. It's like the pinball bubble that everyone thinks is about to pop.

SW is an awesome game. Lots of fresh new stuff and while the code at initial launch looked a little rough, Dwight knocked it out very quickly. GOTG clearly looks rushed and I think the code on it is a mess that doesn't feel right for the game. I think it shoots great and looks good though. A little too much of a IM/Met copy for most peoples tastes though.

Quoted from Skyemont:

Good points. I know ALL companies have to make $$$. I understand that. But, who pays the salaries of these companies. WE DO!!! So if we are not happy, sales stop, people lose jobs, companies go out of business. Plain and simple. Sometimes when I look at these pins stripped down, I have to look twice to make sure I'm not looking at a Zizzle.

What exactly looks like a Zizzle? Some of guys go way over the top with your exaggerations. If you don't like the game just don't buy it. If sales drop stern will change some tactics, if they don't then they are not going to really care if you like their games or not.

#218 3 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

What exactly looks like a Zizzle? Some of guys go way over the top with your exaggerations.

I wouldn't call them zizzles, but "feature-lacking" would probably be a better term for it. I think most people agree that SW could have been so much more. I'm not debating the condition of the code since it's been improving at a steady pace since launch. With that said, I was hoping to get a SW game before they released it since I really love the theme. Upon seeing it, I opted to wait for the next title. Saw the next title (GOTG), which is another one of my themes.....that didn't materialize either. Ordered DI LE and Houdini, to me both game offer a full featured game. JJPOTC is still in line and JJPTS is definitely on the radar.

#219 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

I wouldn't call them zizzles, but "feature-laking" would probably be a better term for it. I think most people agree that SW could have been so much more. I'm not debating the condition of the code since been improving at a steady pace since launch.

Good point. Maybe a little over board with the word "Zizzle" but it seemed to get my point across.

#220 3 years ago

JJP makes the best games on the market by far. Quality is absolutely top notch! That being said, I bought a NIB AFM LE because I couldn't believe all of the features it had for essentially $8k. But after tax and shipping, I was surprised to find that my buy in was darned near $9k! That's a whole lot more than I am comfortable with spending on a pin, so this was a once and done for me, at least as far as NIB. But, I also can't really justify $6k - $7k+ for Bally Williams A list games either. It's just getting out of my reach financially. So, I guess I'm back to bottom fishing in the $1k-$4k range for the foreseeable future. (If you can call spending $4k for a pinball bottom fishing!) That's ok. I'm still glad that JJP makes the games they do and that people are buying them. Eventually, they may start to fall into a range where I can buy some more.

#221 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

I wouldn't call them zizzles, but "feature-laking" would probably be a better term for it. I think most people agree that SW could have been so much more. I'm not debating the condition of the code since been improving at a steady pace since launch.

That really depends on what type of pinball experience you are looking for. I would say SW is one of the fastest most intense pinball experiences ever created. If you like that type of game you will love it. If you want a little slower game with a bunch of ball interaction features then you are going to like DI better. No matter how SW was made people were going to bitch because no 1 game is going to make everyone happy.

Personally I would not want them going back and making SW into what some of you wanted. I like it how it is even though I didn't think I would like when it was initially launched.

#222 3 years ago

I will say that pinball is for sure pushing the limit of what I will spend on a game. $8k is about my limit and at $8k the game better have fantastic code and be loaded with features. My last 3 purchases, DILE, WOZRR, and AFMLE. All right at $8k, but I will admit it was very hard to pull the trigger and spend that much on a pinball machine. It worked out because all 3 are fantastic loaded games. Anything above $8k moving forward is going to literally have to blow my mind for me to spend that kind of money. The older 80s and 90s games just do not hold my attention anymore, so I thinned my collection and spent the money on newer modern games with great code and features. I basically have 2 less games in my collection, but the ones I have are great play. I will admit, I am not getting $8k worth of enjoyment out of my games. I enjoy pinball, but not that much. JJP will more than likely be the only manufacturer getting my money moving forward even if I have to buy second hand when the price drops some.

#223 3 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

I would say SW is one of the fastest most intense pinball experiences ever created.

Ha! Now this made me laugh! No way in hell you actually believe that...Is that you Gary Stern?!

#224 3 years ago
Quoted from TxJay:

Ha! Now this made me laugh! No way in hell you actually believe that...Is that you Gary Stern?!

He listens to the Pearl Jam satellite station non stop, so I think all the years of trying to figure out what Eddie Vedder is saying has caused some brain damage.

#225 3 years ago
Quoted from TxJay:

Ha! Now this made me laugh! No way in hell you actually believe that...Is that you Gary Stern?!

Come over to my place and we will play some. Maybe you can let some of your hate down enough to enjoy yourself?

The game is super intense, maybe it's just not your style?

Quoted from Rockytop:

He listens to the Pearl Jam satellite station non stop, so I think all the years of trying to figure out what Eddie Vedder is saying has caused some brain damage.

As soon as Eddie figures out what he's saying he's going to let me know so I can die in peace.

#226 3 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Come over to my place and we will play some. Maybe you can let some of your hate down enough to enjoy yourself?
The game is super intense, maybe it's just not your style?

As soon as Eddie figures out what he's saying he's going to let me know so I can die in peace.

That's perfect. Don't tell me the lyrics to Yellow Ledbetter though...I like to mix it up, and make up my own every time it comes on.

#227 3 years ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

That's perfect. Don't tell me the lyrics to Yellow Ledbetter though...I like to mix it up, and make up my own every time it comes on.

There's a boxer and a bag and some SOB's that won't waive on that damn porch. I know that for sure.

#228 3 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

There's a boxer and a bag and some SOB's that won't waive on that damn porch. I know that for sure.

Those guys on the porch don't sound friendly...they're probably on pinside then

#229 3 years ago

I don’t know about you guys but I started out saying I will never have more than 6 pins no matter what.

Once I hit 6 it was like well 8 doesn’t seem that bad. Now it’s 12 and I’m like one comes in and one goes but I have zero discipline when it comes to pins!

I also use to think what an idiot I was for spending $6500 on a Wozecle back in 2011.

Now I know I’m an idiot and just accept it.

I too said $8k is the limit and then comes BM66LE and POTCCE

Smart? No. Fun? Yes

You only live once right?

#230 3 years ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

Those guys on the porch don't sound friendly...they're probably on pinside then

Probably bought a stern without complete code, waiting on Zidware, Alien, and TBL deliveries, mad at the colors on their AFMr playfield, and are trying to figure out how to have fun on TH.

#231 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

The question is what happens if game prices keep going up $500 a yr $15,000 and $12,00 a game does not seem like a sustainable business model 5 yr's from now

The question is, what happens when your employer, Gary Stern, finds out you're surreptitiously posting trash on Pinside?

Note to moderators: Shouldn't industry people be required to identify themselves or post a disclaimer.

#232 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

I think most people agree that SW could have been so much more.

If that's what most people think then they're missing out. It plays fast and furious and does that very, very well. Tossing a bunch more stuff on the playfield would not have improved the game.

#233 3 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

If that's what most people think then they're missing out. It plays fast and furious and does that very, very well. Tossing a bunch more stuff on the playfield would not have improved the game.

I agree....SW doesn't need anything else on the play field. The game keeps getting better and better...I suspect once the code fully matures it will be one of the best games out there

#234 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

god you are worthless. Back at it on a Friday trying to troll some more...
You are a sad sad man. All your bumping and continual crap do is continue to show others you are a troll.

It is funny you calling anyone a troll as you troll Stern threads all the time as for bumping there is no need first active JJP thread in some time

#235 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Did you ever think you would paid $1 per play 7 years ago?

Quoted from flashinstinct:

Price will drop when people stop buying.

Or pins on location will go away.

LTG : )

#236 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I don’t know about you guys but I started out saying I will never have more than 6 pins no matter what.
Once I hit 6 it was like well 8 doesn’t seem that bad. Now it’s 12 and I’m like one comes in and one goes but I have zero discipline when it comes to pins!
I also use to think what an idiot I was for spending $6500 on a Wozecle back in 2011.
Now I know I’m an idiot and just accept it.
I too said $8k is the limit and then comes BM66LE and POTCCE
Smart? No. Fun? Yes
You only live once right?

I used to be this way, but once I had 11 or 12 games I realized I never played but about 4-6 at a time so the others sat there for 6+ months and never got played. I think 6-8 good complete games is all anyone really needs. Anything over that and they are not getting played unless you host large parties or tournaments. I honestly could get by with 3. I play the flavor of the month and 1 or 2 others on a regular basis.

#237 3 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

JJP is not pricing themselves out of the hobby, but they are pricing Stern out. Think about it...when JJP raises his prices Stern usually raises theirs by the same amount. However, we are getting less and less from Stern for these higher prices...

I feel like JJP is pricing me out of their games all together and Stern is pricing me out of their Premuim and LE games.

It’s not a question of quality or price alone, but a question of value. Value can be subjective. I’m just not willing to take a gamble on a $8-9,000 game and I’m not going to buy any new game over $9,000. I may still buy, but it will only be after really getting to know the game and looking first for a good value purchase option.

JJP is making some beautiful games, they just haven’t all appealed to me personally.
I like what Spooky is trying to produce, but that’s for another thread.

#238 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Shouldn't industry people be required to identify themselves or post a disclaimer.

A poster mentioned that a few years ago directed towards me, I think it's a good idea. I've never hid who I was. So I added the JJP Tech Support as my location. No room for also Tech Support for PPS/CGC.

LTG : )

#239 3 years ago

When talking game sale numbers only LE games are known . I have said before LE games are for chumps even SW LE is in stock as is the CE of DI after near a yr and 1/2 . DI LE is 2500 so when sold out then can talk how well they are selling. Stern LE games take average of yr to sell out turds KISS WWE can take yr's

#240 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

A poster mentioned that a few years ago directed towards me, I think it's a good idea. I've never hid who I was. So I added the JJP Tech Support as my location. No room for also Tech Support for PPS/CGC.
LTG : )

Just change it to "everyone's favorite tech support, MN"

#241 3 years ago
Quoted from JY64:

When talking game sale numbers only LE games are known . I have said before LE games are for chumps even SW LE is in stock as is the CE of DI after near a yr and 1/2 . DI LE is 2500 so when sold out then can talk how well they are selling. Stern LE games take average of yr to sell out turds KISS WWE can take yr's

Not sure WWELE will ever sell out

#242 3 years ago

I don't think JJP is pricing themselves out of business but with every $500 price bump they are making their pool of potential buyers smaller. Same can be said with Sterns price increases.

Myself and many others have been priced out by the yearly increase costs from Stern and JJP. Eventually, maybe we are there maybe not, sales will decrease.

Who I'm I kidding, it's time to sell a kidney and buy a POTC CE or the next Stern Super LE!

#243 3 years ago

If you have adopted a manufacturing assembly line process that only builds to actual customer (distro) order demand the claim can always be made for marketing purposes by a company that they are "sold out" regardless of the title.

#244 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

The question is, what happens when your employer, Gary Stern, finds out you're surreptitiously posting trash on Pinside?
Note to moderators: Shouldn't industry people be required to identify themselves or post a disclaimer.

Sorry but no I can point out many JJP shill on Pinside . I have always thought it would be nice it all the pin companies had a place to post info but with no comment section JJP Stern and more

#245 3 years ago

Idiot posting deleted.

#246 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Lloyd, You also never post negative comments or stir the pot against competition companies.

I have posted positive things about games, and manufacturers.

So when about games or manufacturers I am directly involved with. People should know.

LTG : )
Disclaimer : I could be biased.

#247 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Are you saying that Gary and George would approve of your tactics here? Are you operating on Pinside with thier knowledge and blessing?
Yeah, I didn't think so.

This comment just shows me you are just one more Pinsider spewing ignorance I have nothing to do with Stern

#248 3 years ago

Idiot posting deleted.

#249 3 years ago

HUO Hobbits can be had for $6.8K. Maybe there is an uptick in price now that the good traits of the game are being more widely known. Retail they are $8.5K + shipping and or tax. So you could save $2K buying used. Pinball machines aren't like normal consumer goods. They are commercial equipment made to take abuse and be nearly completely re-buildable and maintainable. For HUO, they should last essentially forever. IMHO there shouldn't really be a huge drop in value/price for used HUO. Just an adjustment for wear/damage (if any) and games that haven't been kept up.

$9K is a lot of money for a NIB game and to lose over $2K of it in a year ($5.40 per day, every day) is tough. Turning around and spending even more would be hard for me and I would really start to think that that money might be better spent on something else. On the other hand, If I didn't lose much money on the resale, I'd have no problem buying another NIB a year later. I think that this is something that JJP should be concerned about to make sure what they are doing is sustainable. Maybe they should really look at making production runs shorter and ensure that special/limited editions are in-fact limited in number relative to the market demand. Also, releasing new/better/different code can support used values. As long as used values are kept up, I don't think they are pricing themselves out of the market...

#250 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I don't think JJP is pricing themselves out of business but with every $500 price bump they are making their pool of potential buyers smaller. Same can be said with Sterns price increases.
Myself and many others have been priced out by the yearly increase costs from Stern and JJP. Eventually, maybe we are there maybe not, sales will decrease.
Who I'm I kidding, it's time to sell a kidney and buy a POTC CE or the next Stern Super LE!

I was thinking of selling a testicle, but a kidney is all the same. Bring on the $10k+ pins!! ....or at least 2

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