It has been there across all code updates, but worse since the most recent. The most recent does lots of light show crap and weak flippers seem to be associated with that (when lots of stuff is happening). If I unplug c3, c14, and c15 from node 8 then flipper power seems better. That of course just insinuates it is either a power supply issue or one of the feature lights, or all of them on a board is pulling down power. It honestly blows my mind that their 'improved' spike system has the ability for lights to screw up coil power.

Intermittent issues like this are the biggest pain to try and figure out and so frustrating that I have had to waste so much time on this. Even more frustrating that their support department shuts down at 5p each day. Gotta love when troubleshooting with them on the line and they tell you at 5p that they have to go and tell you to call back the next day.
Arrrgggghhh, so sick of this BS on a brand new game.

There was over a million dollars invested in the development of JJPOTC (from a JJP source) and I imagine that the same could be said for the other JJP pins. Those that buy them are supporting that development. (Kind of like the company named Bose for music/sound equipment.) If you like the JJP innovation and variety in their pins (like I do), then you will support that movement ... if you can afford it. Even if you just play them at locations, you are supporting that movement. They are very high priced and they may be seeing their ceiling price that the market can handle with their targeted demographic. Now that a lot of the targeted customer base has a JJP pin, how many JJP pins can they own? I'm guessing that Pat L. had minimal cost restrictions for developing DI. Eric M. has said he was not restricted with his design concepts and not steered to settle on something less.

I think sales will drop for JJP over time because of pricing, not because of quality or game design. We all hope that JJP prices will go down (at least a little bit). I don't see that happening with no restrictions on designers to make the best possible and innovative game with great deep code (and sounds/music) that has all the bells and whistles that most players like, look forward to, and obviously now expect out of JJP. This is the JJP mission - the best possible design and code in each pin. That takes longer and costs more money to develop. Therefore, more overhead costs also need to be absorbed into the JJP pins.

Believe me, I wish the pins cost less and I'm not trying to make excuses for the higher prices. The alternative would be less innovations, more restrictions on designs and development costs, more uses of "modifying old designs" with new themes. I like JJP and their mission and hope they can somehow keep costs and prices down without compromising these other things I have mentioned. Will I buy every JJP pin? Probably not. Probably will wish I could, buy used, and/or would sell other pins to try make it happen if they keep making these great pins.

I would like to see jjp do a standard body in the 6k range if possible. that way more people could experience the jjp games in their home.

ehhh... ok I'll bite... As a distributor least I can add facts to the original post.

Yes games are expensive, they have been and it's not just JJP. JJP excels on many fronts - quality, code, depth, toys, LCD/animations, accessories included (headphone jack, invisiglass, shaker) so yes they are more than others - just a little more in many cases, but you get well more than your money's worth with what they give you vs others at lower cost.

Yes, I have all 3 models of DI in stock. Kinda just got to that point and I frankly only have a few - they sell. To only have stock for the first time after about 10 months of production means they sold well, really well - meaning sales kept coming in as months went by and we rarely had any stock during that time. And the few I have will sell soon and I'll get more (rinse lather repeat)...

WOZ is THE most expensive of all of them and we have been selling this game (sit down folks...) FOR now over SEVEN years. 7. 84 months. 7 years. Many of you have children that are not that old and marriages that don't last that long. 7 YEARS... AND - I have them in stock, but I have a hard time KEEPING THEM IN STOCK. (rinse lather repeat)... They sell, always have, always will.

Hobbit - Same thing but to a lesser extent than WOZ - games been for sale 4/5 years I guess - Yes, I have them in stock, but I keep buying more as they sell - slower than WOZ, but they sell - just sold 1 Friday delivering Tuesday...

So... the argument that JJP is pricing themselves out of the market is poppycock (I've always wanted to use that word and now I can die happy)... Are they expensive, yes. Do they sell - YES. That equates to a quality product at a top end price that people appreciate and buy - and buy - and buy etc... Marketing 101 is that there's a sweet spot where you set your price and the market will determine if it's right or wrong... If it's too high - you won't sell. If it's too low you won't be able to produce enough to keep up... I think they waver between both at times, but many times we can't keep games in stock. So I think they've 'dialed in' the pricing sweet spot just right.

Final note : JJP is the only company on earth that has ever made a pinball machine that STILL is producing EVERY SINGLE TITLE they've ever made and not stopped. Yes, it's just 3 - soon to be 4, but it's 7 years. Impressive folks any way you slice it.

Oh and FYI POTC Collectors Editions are SOLD OUT - I might have 1 left - not even sure - just got another inquiry yesterday and more will come as the game goes into production... $ 12,500 and SOLD OUT. By definition, that's not pricing yourself out of any market. Crazy price and reaction to an amazing game packed with everything you could want - but there is a market. And it's just not rich folks - many of my customers sell an old game or two and then buy a JJP. They are the Cadillac of pinball and most everyone wants to own one at some point.

Hope this helps clear up any soapbox ranting with facts from a distributor that lives this stuff every day.

Joe Newhart
PinballSTAR Amusements
[email protected]

Wasn’t WOZ released in 2013?

Me too - but the decision becomes do you downgrade the game to get there ? What do you take out that would get the price there - a full playfield ? spinning disks ? The LCD screen and all associated with that ? JJP has surely had this argument with themselves, and it's hard to take a Cadillac and bastardize it to the point you can drive the price down to that level and still have the same game you started with. I'd love to sell a $ 6000 JJP - don't see it happening though. Why shoot low when you can shoot high (in terms of quality and experience) and succeed ? Maybe one day - things change but right now people want what they are making. There are other companies we sell in those price ranges - Spooky, American Pinball, and Chicago Gaming all have GREAT games in the 6000-7000 range, 3 companies multiple titles and that's not even including Stern pros.. That market is being feed too.

I said on sale - since 1/1/11 - meaning people have been interested and putting money down for that long. But yes it went into production in 2013 - for my point was talking sales cycle.

Most impressive and says a lot about the quality of the machines.

I always admire and appreciate candid comments such as these to put things in perspective for those of us unaware. Especially when they validate each other along with community upvotes.

Thanks for keeping it real guys, looks like I got trolled by the OP on this one.

I think his initials as Jody Yankberg.

Oh and before Jack and his big balls started JJP we were all playing NBA... Thank him next time you see him...

You wouldn't have Spooky, Chicago Gaming, American Pinball, Dutch Pinball, Heighway, and others STILL coming into the market without him bringing passion and a full featured games back into the mix. This guy single handedly invigorated pinball. Shows - they keep growing and new ones keep coming up. Tournaments everywhere - growing. Barcades / locations with pinball - growing. Pinside even - growing. New people to the hobby - growing. Remakes available for games that previously were 10-15k now affordable. Exposure for pinball - more than ever. So before we complain, even if you aren't a JJP customer, you still benefit from all that has transpired in this hobby since WOZ was announced on 1/1/11.

I love all new pinball but so far JJP just haven't made a game I want to own. I try to like them but something is always missing.

Hobbit - wide open, floaty, no humor, but looks fantastic.

DI. Shoots much better but overall experience just feels dry. And enough has been said about the theme.

POTC. Zero interest in the theme but it looks like it will be more fun to play.

Stern. Drive me crazy with code so far behind, QC issues and now node boards failing.

But it is always the Stern games I want to buy - going to be hard to resist Iron Maiden and then just hope not to get a lemon with dodgy boards.

I want what’s in Joes coffee this morning, you sir are on FIRE!!
Thanks for the JJP distributor perspective on this topic.

With the price of Sterns replacement node boards, if you're going to drop nib coin might as well go for a JJP and get the code as well as the build quality instead of PF, cabinet and node issues with a cool theme. Personally looking into reliability, serviceability, quality and theme I'm sticking with older B/w through Sam system Sterns. No nodes for me

I am patiently waiting for a theme from JJP that speaks to me..and will gladly spend the extra to own a Jersey Jack pin.

ha ha - ya up working early ! I don't mean to come off as anything but positive - I just think the initial poster's perspective was short sighted.. Yes they are priced out of market for many buyers, but they certainly business wise are not pricing themselves out of the market - they own that market. I see a lot from where I sit of both sides, the buyer and the company and right now both sides seem to be very satisfied... Buyers getting what they want in a game and company getting price they need to keep doing what they are doing - making the best games possible...

It's awesome everyone is thriving right now - be positive - it's a great time for pinball !

Even the Stern Supreme stuff is marketing genius - they don't care about selling those 12 games, trust me - they care about the how ever many million hits that video will get - make people look at Stern and the advertising exposure you just can't buy that will come with it. In turn these new intrigued pinball people will look at JJP, Spooky, AP, CG, etc... and in turn go to a show, buy a game, create a new collection, go to a tournament... That whole Supreme thing has Zach Sharpe written all over it - he and Josh have worked to BUILD pinball for years with IPFA / tournaments - and that's exactly what I think that was designed to do - if it brings more people to the hobby - we all benefit. We may all poo poo on it cause it's not for us and seems elitist etc... Ya it's whacky, but it's genius whacky.

My point is this - even though something isn't for you - look at it from all angles of how it can benefit all of us. Pinball is thriving... Many of you will be at Texas next month with your head on a swivel with all the latest and newest titles that will be there - POTC, Remake #3, Alice Cooper, Houdini, GOTG and who knows what other surprises... Cool stuff folks !

I agree, if JJP can build a game/theme that interests me more, than I would consider one. Until then NOT!!

Looking forward to my first JJP game, as soon as they make a pin with a theme that I like I'm in and cost doesn't matter to me when it comes pinball. If I was a BM66 superfan I would have attempted to get the SLE version what the hell is wrong with wanting the best version if you have the money? Ok ofcourse not everyone is going to see that value but to each his own. I have a buddy who spent 4K on rims for his Escalade now to me thats a waste, he could have bought a nice pin for that .

Not sure i'm thankful to JJP or not for getting me back into pinball with WOZ, a dozen pins later and bunch of $$ spent BUT it sure has been one helluva wild and crazy and fun ride, that's for sure that will hopefully only get better.

I put my order in on Wozecle with Jack himself in March of 2011, $6500, considered an outrageous price back then. Here we are in 2018 and I'm buying another JJP pin finally on a theme and layout that interests me. A CE with Joe.

I love to play pinball and I'm a collector at the same time. That's why i went with the CE amongst other things like the no Depp pf and kick ass topper.

I hope they can get on a track of releasing at least ONE pin per year. There is a lot of competition for $$ out there and timing matters for some.

I'll be interested to see what these companies like JJP, Stern and others do with the "massive tax cut" that kicks into gear this year.

It's substantial, and it appears Stern is starting to hire more people to address their issues.

What will JJP do? Add more people, put MORE into the games, lower the cost or simply pocket those "massive crumbs"?

Any smart business would look at solving issues and ways to grow their businesses at a time in our country that will never be this business friendly or positive again. We'll see what happens.

That “massive tax cut” might soon be followed up with a massive tax hike on gas which will add huge expenses to everything across the board.

Smart companies don’t make rash decisions and the idea that they should suddenly commit to huge expenditures based on politics seems short-sighted. No Pinball company has the capital and cash reserve to radically change their business plan based on a tax cut.

I can assure you Stern’s decision to hire more people had nothing to do with politics. They didn’t decide to do that a month ago.

Flight leader, scramble the moderators. We're at Defcon 2.

Tax cuts have nothing to do with politics. It’s about the bottom line, jobs, productivity, wage increases etc and manufacturers like pinball will be receiving a 20% income exclusion

And I can guarantee you Sterns decision to hire more people and the salaries they pay will be somewhat dictated by tax cuts.

That’s what business does. Across the board. To think it will have no impact on the business of pinball is asinine

You just said Stern hired more people because of tax cuts and that JJP should for the same reasons. I disagree. Have a nice Sunday.

Whatever

In a period of rising pinball prices I asked the question of what they will do with more $$ to the bottom line

Maybe business principles don’t apply to pinball

More people are great, I honestly would prefer a 2 year code completion and a 20% price decrease. Everyone would be a lot more patient if stern pros were $4100 again. But we know that's not going to happen.

Good story but unfortunately NIB pinball machines have outpaced the cost of inflation. And that does not even factor in that Stern Pro's are cheaper to make than just the standard pins they were making 14 years ago. Compare a 2004 LOTR to a 2017 Star Wars on BOM. A 2004 LOTR was $3800.

Obviously JJP are higher BOM than Stern's...but pins have still outpaced inlfation by quite a bit. They literally are more expensive than they were in the past in relation to value of the dollar.

Items outpacing inflation....College, Furniture...Pinball Machines.

Not going to happen until they have much larger production facilities.

If they sell everything they can make at a much higher price, currently, how or why would they?

I'm sure it will come eventually. But you should expect a period of consolidation or gradual expansion, rather than huge investment in new facilities right now.

Truth.

But, this is a great example of the market driving the price. Could they be sold cheaper and still clear a profit?

Yes.

Have enough buyers shown a willingness buy at severely inflated prices?

Yes.

Therefore, prices stay sky-high

you are a nice guy but i dont believe that at all. maybe sold and still sitting in distributors, yes.

I'm out with the last price increase. The used market on POTC by JJP will probably be 6500-7000. No way any of these games hold close to value. Stern is the same. The LE is no longer an option.

Totally agree, the “LE” isn’t limited with JJP. Or Stern for that matter

There’s a lot to be said for just making a pin for one price and selling as many as you can. Spooky and AP

$6k-$7k is the sweet spot on the secondary market it seems like no matter what they sell for originally. Some exceptions

Sold to collectors, sold to ops, sold to distributors. What's the difference ?

Unless you mean distributors that bought multiples, may have some available ? ( Joe posted he may have one left ? )

LTG : )

If it was not obvious to people before, this thread cements JY as a stern plant or troll. Made the OP and has not returned since.

This I agree with. As an LE-only buyer I did come to the same conclusion. The write-off is just too much for the extra's you get over a Premium. This would change however if the runs would be lower, for instance a maximum of 200 worldwide. In that case the LE could have some advantage over the Premium for a game that turns out to be a very good game and therefore is wanted enough for some collectors to buy an LE at the higher prices.

Take for example BM66LE. If there were 700 made like a normal run for a Stern LE, they would not be so sought after now. So in that case you could re-sell with a minimal loss. I do think they should sell cheaper than new, because, well, there are not new

In this regard I think that the JJP CE version is more worth the price than the JJP LE, as the LE's from JJP are not limited at all. As Joe just stated, they could be sold for years to come, so the HUO's HAVE to go down more in price as it would not be justified to buy it over new. On the other hand if you are not interested in re-selling the game, the JJP LE is the way to go.

All I know is I don't need both Kidneys and if JJP ever announce a new James Bond pin I will have any organs I can spare on eBay Day 1

I know Jack is a salesman, but my wife and I went to his open house a while back and spoke to him. He is very nice and really loves pinball. We traded 2 sterns for a Hobbit shortly after. It was easier to trade two older machines then to put up the cost of the new Hobbit at the time. We love the game and have no regrets. we have owned over 60 machines since 1998. But, the costs of new Jjps are a deterent for us and we love what they produce. The quality is there. We will always be into used Jjp machines on the secondary market over the ability to buying new Sterns for now. its just hard to justify spending over $8000 on any machine for us. Thats where Stern wins in pricing. Jjp would sell more if it was less money, but would they make enough going forward?

There are still some nice breaks for small business. My accountant went over some nice changes I will get this year.

Is this the new trend or something, to bag on Johnny Depp? How does one even like the POTC franchise without enjoying the Jack Sparrow character, brought to life by Johnny Depp? It makes no sense.

As far as JJP pricing themselves out of pinball, that remains to be seen. Clearly it hasn't happened yet. However, the hobby has finally crossed the pricing threshold where people being able to buy these games, play them for a year and sell them for more than they have in the game or even just slightly less are over.

I always believed that that scheme was the only way that folks could justify paying big bucks. Now that pinball is looking more and more like any other hobby (ie. a money hole), we will see if these prices can be supported.

Repost. Sorry.

I'm too stupid to post from my phone. Sorry mods. Please delete.

I love my JJP games,CE pirates looks beautiful. Its only Money
Cant take it with ya

Jjp are awesome....if I was jus trying to be a collector and keep what i bought then jjp would be the best way to go....but the stern pro is the best way for me...you can't beat the pricing on the pro and fun factor....

It's good that people speak up and expose all of these shills on Pinside.

It's good to be on a pinball/arcade forum that doesn't have its moderation techniques focussed on third party commercial interests for the underlying profit motive of the Administrators.

so you started a troll thread on a friday at noon with the intent to have discussion? then just evaporated for the weekend...

sure thing...

We all know the reality is you came in thinking this was going to be your super hype thread before you left work on Friday, saw the reaction, and evaporated till you got called out and thought you could come back to try and save face from being the schill you are.
see ya Yankberg.