While they are expensive and I don't own one yet JJP games seem to have a higher build quality than stern. After playing dialed in at Allentown and York this year then playing Star Wars and Aerosmith premiums I was surprised at the differences in the overall feel of the machines. Dialed in was so solid and the sterns just didn't compare. On the negative side. DI theme wise is not for me but it reminded me of how Bally Williams games played after opening them NIB back in the day or a how a well done restoration plays now. I'm curious to play pirates at Allentown this year to see if my observations are the same.

I am pretty sure they sold all of them

I'm with you on this, well said. I'm tired of waiting 2 years to get solid code. I will buy sterns 2-3 years down the road with complete code if I buy at all.

Lots of talk about JJP and stern but I think the real competition might be American pinball. Houdini is the full package at a competitive price. If they can keep the games coming, they’re the ones JJP and Stern need to watch out for.
And a mention of spooky too. TNA is taking pinball money away from others.

I'm priced out of all NIB games. But I usually wait for the second hand market. Unfortunately I'm also priced out of JJP second hand market too.

I mean the Hobbit needs a big update.

I agree with you in that jjp games aren't great for location operators, especially the lazy ones who don't maintain their games. Stern pros are where it's at for low maintenance location play. But to say jjp games aren't good tells me you don't have much time in on them, don't know the rules, and/or you played them at a location that didn't spend the extra time needed to upkeep it.

But enjoy your Metallica and the grind that comes with it.

Sure, they may be spendy, but you go get what you pay for. If you have an issue with one of your games, their customer service/tech support gets it resolved quickly...it’s the best in the biz. And I think they pack plenty into their games...in code, in video assets for movie themed games (can’t speak for pirates yet), and in the physical makeup of a game.

JJp caters to the collector which is what we all wanted for a long time. They are expensive but they pack their games with toys and the build quality is unmatched.They take their time to develop games with code and really show innovation with each release. They don’t throw out 5 or 6 games a year which I think really helps to focus on making sure they are putting out the best quality product and they are able to test the game before they push it onto the consumer. I just got my first JJp a few months ago (dialed in) and am extremely impressed it is one of the funnest games that I have played in the last 10 years. My thought process is if I’m going to pay for 7300 to another company that doesn’t put as much thought into their pins then I’m going to save up and wait until I can pay 2k more for a quality JJP packed with awesomeness.

This is what JJP's business strategy has been from the very beginning and they carry on with today.

Food for thought:

I think perception has a LOT to do with these increased NIB pin prices being "priced out" of range.

Back around 2000 a NIB pin was $4000, bought a NIB Monopoly then for around that much. Bought a new top of the line Honda Accord EX V6 loaded for $25,100 MSRP. Today a NIB Stern Pro is $5700 MSRP, a 42.5% increase. A top of the line Accord is $35,800 MSRP, a 42.6% increase......

I'm 53, and to me my first reference for new car prices is still $15-25K, and not the $35-45K stickers on your average good cars. If you really look at the numbers the pins "priced out" of range really may be a perception thing.

Obviously JJP charges more for their pins compared to your Stern pins, but then again Lexus charges more for their SUVs than Toyota, but for a reason.....

EXACTLY!!!!

Stop smoking pot.

I've had Stern / Williams / Bally games that I had to remove both ramps, some plastics and about 3 other pieces just to change one thing. All pinball games are basically the same, some stuff is easy to fix, some stuff is not.

I had to access the theater on my Dialed in. I had to remove 3 screws, which removed, the mini playfield, the bumper cap and a plastic. That's it. Again pending what you need to fix, all games could be described as disasters to fix. TNA is probably the safest out of the bunch.

While I agree more or less with your statement, I feel that it adds to the ambiance of the game and makes it more interactive. Plus the animations on JJP are the best bar-none. I also really enjoy the voice with subtle instructions on dialed in.... I have less to explain to newbies.

I wont disagree on price, JJP is up there but after owning alot of Sterns in the past 7+ years, I felt I needed a change. Stern just felt like they where doing the same stuff over and over again.

JJP is making pinball great again. All the stuff I love about the games in the 90:s but new, better tech and great quality. Pricey? Yes, but there is no competition in regards of complete pinball experience (subways, toys, code).

That's the same with me and I *WANT* Stern to earn my business back. But they just aren't cutting it for me and on several different levels.

This hobby is not nearly as expensive as everyone makes it out to be. Most of us buy and sell these games with little to no loss after significant use. NIB owners undoubtedly take a loss to have the NIB experience. Second hand owners will mostly get to play these games for free. It's the initial cost that deters most from getting a DILE or comparable. Overall on my pinball ownership experience, I'm ahead financially. Albeit not by much, but I am ahead.

JJP's games prices are justified. Period end. Superior quality and attention to detail. It's that simple. You can not get upset at the company for charging a premium for quality. Granted, every game will have it's issues, but it's how you handle those concerns that set you ahead of the game. I think JJP, and even CGC show dedication to the hobby.

I will say the initial buy in is a pretty big expense, but like you said once you're in you can usually trade laterally or up with little to no loss.

Yeah we understand what you’re saying, because cars and pinball machines are very similar items and should be compared to each other.

I'd say no, given that there are waiting lists for DI and they can't make any more machines than they are without expanding production.

Given the way the primary investor spoke at Expo last year, it sounds like the long term plan is lower prices and higher production (he spoke about expanding reach and selling to locations) ... but that won't happen overnight.

What waiting list?

Automated has all 3 versions of DI including the CE and Joe has them too

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was using cars & their prices as an analogy that most every can relate to:

When I first started buying new cars they cost around $20K. That price impression/expectation is still with me 30 years later.

When I first started buying NIB pins they cost around $4K. That price impression/expectation is still with me 20 years later.

Compared to that price impression I have in the back of my mind somewhere anytime I look at car/pin prices the perception is that they seem to have gone "out of reach". The reality is that most everything goes up in price over the years, and if the price increase follows inflation, they really haven't gotten any more expensive than they were 15 or 20 years ago.

Anyone getting new into the hobby today sees NIB pin prices start around $5500, and will in the future if he stays in the hobby long enough still see that as the price that new pins should cost......

It's the false perception in ones mind that they have gotten more expensive, when the reality is in terms of constant dollars the price of a NIB pin has stayed constant......

aint that the truth. After yet ANOTHER morning of trying to troubleshoot and work on our brand new GOTG to get it working properly, I am burnt out on their stuff. Quality has continued to go down while they jacked the price up.

I really want to give them money to keep making new games, but it has become harder and harder with what they offer.

I used to always say, you could not go wrong with a Stern pro for route, but lately the amount of issues the NIB games are having I dont think that is the case.
It used to be you could buy a new stern, unbox it, and only minor tweaks to make it play better.

the past few have been countless hours of troubleshooting major issues (weak flippers, blown node boards, etc...) My time is worth more.

Not according to the amount of time you spend on Pinside.

I have WOZ, Hobbit, and DI here, and they hold up well.

I did have to adjust the trap door on DI, and I had a broken coil wire and busted pop bumper bracket on Hobbit. Woz just keeps plugging along.

LTG : )

Once we see the price of the new Stern Supreme, JJP pins will seem like a steal!

lol. pinside is not 'work'

NOBODY should have the amount if issues we have seen with the most recent batch of Sterns. This Fing GOTG has been a real PITA since the day it came out of the box.

It's been said before, but no one should be using money they can't afford to lose in its entirety when purchasing a pinball machine.

It's a friggin' toy.

I agree with this 100%. It's lost money. And you shouldn't be investing coin in these NIB games looking at them as collectables. They're not. Stern has proven they're willing to tweak and re-run at a moment's notice. So has JJP.

Only spend if you can... assume you'll lose cash. Do that, and you'll be okay on the other end.

Wait till your main board goes bad on the shitty spike system past the 90 day warranty. That'll be the nail in the coffin.

Yeah, this issue has been doumented since day one, so they won't be able to just stop with the support.

Thus far, they have been very good in support dept, but the real problem is how much time it has wasted. I also feel bad for the players tha continually drop in coins only to have to deal with intermittently weak flippers. Not much fun to play a game that does not even flip consistently.

You mean when they send you a replacement for free and provide good support like they pretty much always do?

Typical pinside, every JJP thread turns into a stern bash fest.

That sucks, sorry it's been such a pain.

JJP produce half (or less) as many games as Stern but they are solidly built and coded. Customers love their games and they keep coming back. So, they are far from going out of business.

I think JJP is here to stay.

I enjoyed WOZ while I had it and plan on getting a POTCLE. I didn’t like TH, but I do like Dialed In and will probably get one at some point.

I think it’s a great company that makes great products. They are pricey, but you can generally find a HUO game down the road and save a little money on it.

Every time I see this thread, it makes me think I see the title "j j p has priced themselves into the market". Could be subliminal...

If you want to fix this issue with intermittent weak flips, you have to solder the wires for the EOS together so they are always closed. Been a problem since ghostbusters. Game of thrones and before is fine, but they changed something in the software and frankly their EOS switches suck. Solder the wires together for each flipper EOS and be done with it!

-Jeff

Maybe Stern should cut back to 1 machine a year, make it a killer license, limit production on it to cater to the collector and use better materials and craftsmanship and charge 12k for it.

I’d be ok with this but I think most wont.

Seems to be a light board issue currently. Been through every itteration of trouble shooting and swapping every part, but newest code seems to have wak flippers related to when big light shows are happening.

Can you get rid of EOS completely on spike games? Won't coils over heat if held up for too long with no EOS?

No, they will revert to a predetermined computer program. Did this on a couple ghostbusters and some subsequent titles since new. Asked them to change back to whatever software was on game of thrones for flipper control. They still haven't done it and it is definately an issue. Hold the EOS open with you fingers and flip. Then try it with game of thrones or earlier. 2 different behaviors with the new one causing problems with playing, unless your EOS switches function 100% correctly every single flip. Gotta bypass them for the players sake or they and you will go nuts.

-Jeff

I would not do that. Run a dollar bill through the EOS switches and the cabinet button switches. I did that on a GB pro at our local distributor one night before our weekly tournament started and it did not have any issues rest of that night. Hope that works for you.

I find it funny, yet ironic, that this thread started off as a jab at JJP by a known Stern supporter and is ending with current stern quality issues.

Another dankberg treasure

I personally find the stern and jjp nonsense annoying and old. Every thread ends up with the same people gushing about one and bashing the other and then the same people that always do the opposite.

Both have made good games, both have made some meh games, both have had QC issues, both have had playfield issues, both have provided good customer support for the most part, and both have consistently jacked up prices.

He is a shill. Jjp gets attention from a webcast and out he comes.

Tried that and no fix sadly.

I think the JJP pins are excellent. I've played WOZ and the Hobbit on location and though they were excellent. I agree that they are expensive and I really dislike the trend with stern and JJP to have multiple versions of games. The games get so stupidly expensive that its nut to even consider.

What really aggravates me about JJP is they have the collector games with certain things not available on the other games. Most of it I could care less about but some things are really cool and when its a limited run of 200 and insanely priced, I just feel like I'm missing out on something. Thats what was nice about the old machines before williams went out. There was one version and thats it. I frankly feel as a Pinball hobbyist that its best to just find the machines people don't want. I can have almost as much fun with a 2500 dollar machine then I would with a 7500 dollar machine. No matter how many toys and code you put in, at the end of the day, its a playfield with metal ball bearings running around.

Do you have an earlier code version to try? It could be up to 6 months before we see another update.

At least all jjp pins play the same and the differences are only cosmetic ....

The entire perception of the primary purpose for what a pinball machine was built for has strategically changed in the last 5 or so years to be deliberately almost solely marketed to the high end buyer who treats it more as a showpiece to be looked at and rarely plays the machine.

I wish more collectors were able to ignore the current marketing strategy and maintain your philosophy.

Now that is exactly what concerns me about CGC's reissues/remakes. Those are BIG PCBs and I assume that they will be pricey and possibly costly to ship. Still, I love that they are producing pins, just wish that it was with future serviceability in mind.