I was just thinking about this the other night. It doesn't seem fair to compare what essentially are EM games with a digital score to current DMD games with all the rules and craziness.

I say to seperate it. I know when I rate a game I rate it by category. So when I am rating a Em game I might give it a 9 based on other Em games. there is no way EM and SS games have the same music and code as the new Stern DMD games. For example I rated surf champ Em game in the 9's based on it compared to other EMs. Comparing it with lets say Metallica is impossible. For the era of the game such as HIGH Speed vs lets say AC/DC..Just my thoughts but I am a pin guy and love all of them and have em,ss, and DMD in my collection. Gota love pinball!!!

If they are split should it be top 50?

i agree with the OP, they should have their own top 100.

I think of "Classic Solid State" as a category that includes SS games from 1977-1984. System 11 games are more like the 90's DMD games then they are like these early ss games. Think of classics tournaments. Most just feature early ss games and ems.

Split DMD/SS, and I'd split LCD(post-DMD) from DMD, even though there are very few titles at the moment. But let the chart start to form.

I'd say splitting them is a good idea. Even though the list is kind of silly.

The list should be used as a very loose guide anyway so doesn't really matter.

Really when it comes to ranking these I still have issues with both pinside and ipdb. Yes ranks are 'grain of salt' types of things anyway, and I think Robin has a decent system here.

Personally I find the idea of ranking games with filters a much more interesting idea but it might requrie a much more complicated system. Frankly I'd find it interesting to be able to customize a Top 100 based completely on filters.

For example, I'd like to be able to see the ranked top # of pins of any era - EM, SS, DMD (which I find funny because DMD are SS), LCD, CRT, OCD, ADD, whatever. For most people EMs and DMD era pins won't compete in the area of audio - chimes versus speech and background music/call-outs/etc. However, what if I just wanted to build a ranking based on peoples take on playfield layout - no art, no sounds, just straight play on the field? What if I wanted to see a ranking of games using playfield layout, 'fun', and playfield art, no backglass art or audio? It would mean a totally dynamic rank generator would have to be written for the site and perhaps an array of rankings could be listed including all eras based on specific components of the rating system. This is something I would find interesting.

I completely agree. This would be amazing

Yep.

I think it would be ideal to show all SS games at once, and then have the option to break them into sub categories.

-mof

Question.

Why are there only 300 solid state titles rated, if there were 1200+ solid state games made?

Where are the other 900+ games, and why are more of them not rated?

-mof

because they really sucked?

Exactly! Great examples! Pinside already has all that data it would be great to put it to work!

I say lump them together and let the chips fall where they stand.

Why should one be judged any different from another?

Early_Pinball.jpg

257384-i.png

Been saying this for years. It's one of the major reasons why I have not looked at the so called "top lists" on this site in 3 years.

Splitting them might make it more informative but I still don't place a lot of importance on Pinside polls (or any others for that matter) except for newer games. Since I was alive and playing pinball when all the early SS pins were new and a lot of the DMDs, I pretty-much already know which ones I prefer. I tend to place more value in reviews of newer pins that I haven't seen yet.

Filters are the way to go. That way everyone can view the lists how they want and everyone is happy. That, or we have much more specific arguments about what should be #1 with XYZ filters..

Good question. I was wondering the same thing...
-mof

Drained topic #1

Just my opinion, the IPDB isn't rated as much in the recent times. Some of the machines I have been interested in the ratings were old like no one is rating on it like they do on Pinside... just a thought

Don't know about others, but I don't look at ratings to decide which game *I* like or want. I watch a video, load it on VPin, play it the real thing in person if possible. It's not like Yelp where you can make informed decisions about quality/service when you want to eat out for a one time event. It's personal. There are games I have loved others hate, and definitely vise-versa.

Ratings are interesting but not useful -- i.e. trying to compare Elvis, Led Zepplin, Duran Duran, Spice Girls, and Snoop dog just because all of them were ranked #1 at one time for their era; when I only have interest in a couple of them myself and the others could be ranked at #100 for all I care.

Rankings only lead to pInflation and unrealistic expectations (on both sides). Trying to split it out is a waste of someone's time which could be better spent playing or fixing

Agreed, I listen to and watch the videos and examine the playfield layouts to decide what *I* like.

I use the Top-300 to determine the likelihood of whether OTHER people will like the pin when I'm ready to move on it. I study the ranking AND the number of reviews on it. If I'm faced with buying a pin rated 75 or a pin rated 225, and I'm on the fence, the pin rated 75 may sway me, because I'll think it will be an easier sell.

For me, it's one of many factors when making a buying decision, the "Resell-ability" of the object.

-mof

Thanks for posting your idea! Sorry for my slow reaction.

To be honest, I don't really know the IPDB ratings system as I've never used it.

I think splitting up the Pinside top 100 has some advantages but also some downsides. Making such a big change will be tough to sell at this point.

Adding a "roll your own top 100" screen (I.e. Filters) seems like the way to go for this.

I agree but there's one big disadvantage: a top 100 based on filters is not a definitive list. I want to be able to say: this is THE Pinside Top 100.

Filters could make a nice add-on. I'll look into adding this.

Did you know I already have some custom lists which I made a few years ago:
https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100/various

Sweet!
-mof

Those are very cool. I had no idea they existed

Me either. Where has that been hiding?

I have been married for 13 years, but I have to quote what I have heard is the most stated line said on dates today "Is this happening or what?".
A good idea and it makes sense, so let's do it! Who is really against it? Who says - I want to do an apples to apples comparison rating of a $1000 Sorcerer built in 1985 versus a $10,000 Tron LE built last week?!???!!!
For those who say "I don't care about ratings or anything when I buy a pin". Fine. Then why do you stand up and suddenly have an opinion on how other people categorize their opinions?
Let's do this! Great Idea by a long time respected collector who loves pinball and collects a wide range of pins! We should listen to people like this. When is it going to happen?

What there is a top 100 list .......? Ive never heard of this ......

I would like both. An all inclusive list of all things pinball judged against one another. Also I think it is long overdue to seperate SS like EM has been. EM, SS and DMD are very different beasts and could use their own scoring system by genre.

I have also realized this, shortly after adding EM games. you can't really judge the animations in a game that has no display And there are more "faults" with the rating system, which was obviously designed solely for recent SS games.

... Lately I've been playing with the idea to ditch the current rating system altogether and replace it with another system that is not prone to troll votes (people scoring games with perfect 10's or with "this game is trash" 1's).

In this new system people would simply be asked to compile a list of games they have played (defaults to all games in their collection) and drag them in the order of their preference. Best game at the top, worst game at the bottom. Couldn't be simpler.

Scores would be given to the best x games in each persons list, or something to that extent. Still have to work out the exact scoring.

We could easily migrate to such a new system because it would keep people's top x list (their ratings) as a basis.

While doing this, I could also tackle the whole PRO/LE/VE and Remake "problem" in the current rating system.

Food for thought...

Very nice. I support this "new thinking". However, if someone's ratings are private, will they be included in this newly proposed ranking system?

Private ratings never count. They don't count now and they never will. After all, they're private!

Sounds great to me. It really could use the overhaul.

Disagree (if we mean making a final solution)...

The "decades" don't cut it for me... (as good brackets)

It's def a SS vs DMD thing around 1991 or an EM vs SS thing around 1976, etc...

Things don't line up on the 70 80 and 90 dates too well, that's just a coincidence/illusion that it (kinda) matches the technological advances.

-mof

This sounds like a great idea. Please implement this!!

I also agree with the concept of making one big list, include all games regardless of era or decade or technology, then use filters to toggle what view you want to use. You could exclude EMs, or show only EMs. You could sort by decade, manufacturer, display type, whatever you want. It seems like this would be much more flexible, and avoid arbitrary categories.

I don't see how this would work.

If Joe has 5 games he found on the side of the road, there is still a best in his collection. But a best in his collection has no way to be compared to a best in another collection.

Example: Jane had one pin. It's popeye. She ranks it number one because it's the only one she has.

How would this work?

Me personally, i say don't separate.

I think it's idiotic that people want their dmd pin on the top 100 list by kicking off better rated SS pins. Honestly, i think it's an attempt to inflate value of pins that get less press or aren't as desirable. Kinda embarrassing if you ask me.
I guess it's fine if you want to win that way, but IMO, the best are the best regardless of pin era.

It's called the top 100 for a reason.
By separating the list, you are essentially letting pins that don't deserve to be in the top 100 onto the list.
If they deserved to be there, they would be.

There are a handful of system 11's better than some of the dmd's, why punish a good pin just because the display is different?

The filtering idea is decent, but the master list before filtering should accommodate all pins.

Why do you speak so disparagingly about Stern's modern releases that can't top 20+ year old machines?

It would be "the law of averages". That's only one vote for Popeye.....and that's only if "Jane" actually votes; and that's if "Jane" only votes for that one pin in her collection. You can vote for other pins you've played but don't currently own. "In this new system people would simply be asked to compile a list of games they have played ".

I say keep the list as is but offer two additional tabs, one for SS and one for DMD

Interesting side note to the "Pinside.com - Top 20's by manufacturer list" (as of week 32, 2014)

Bally has 10 machines ranked 8.0 or better.
Williams has 9
Gottlieb, Sega and Data East.......0
Stern - 12

Two ways to look at that:
1. Newer is better
2. Williams/Bally combined still kicks everyone's ass.

I agree I think with all the new DMD type (I would consider LCD display DMD type) pins coming along the solid state should get their own ranking as there are some very good solid state ones that don't make the grade simply because of when they where made.