(Topic ID: 255789)

Is it possible to set an EM for credit AND extra ball at the same time


By hjh632

8 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 24 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 2 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

0Finder-spec-Relays-Work-01 (resized).jpg
0Shangri-La-Replay-Unit10 (resized).jpg

#1 8 months ago

Is it possible to set an EM for credit AND extra ball at the same time?

I'd like the credit knocker to sound when I get an extra ball. I bet I'm not the only person to try this, and some Pinsiderer probably figured out how…

I like to have my EMs set to extra ball at high scores and specials for regular play. But I love the sound of the extra credit knocker. Is it possible to somehow jump wire an EM to have the knocker activate when an extra ball is attained? Jumping the two Jones plug sockets together won't work. When the 'same player shoots again' light comes on it locks on the knocker solenoid for as long as the light is on, so that's not a solution. (I don't really care about getting an actual credit since my Williams Grand Prix and Aladdin's Castle are set for free play.)

I'm not the greatest at working on pin mechanics, so a simple (if possible) solution that doesn't require multiple extra wires running from the cabinet steppers to the back box is best. Maybe I'm asking the impossible, but I've seen enough creativity on the forum to have hopes. Henry

#3 8 months ago

Bally "Hi-Deal" is one game I know of that can award replays and extra balls simultaneously.

#4 8 months ago

Games are Grand Prix and Aladdin's Castle

#5 8 months ago

I'm sure it would be a one wire splice, but would have to contemplate from where.

#6 8 months ago

A one wire splice runs the risk of awarding a replay for every extra ball and vice-versa. I'd want to verify on the schematic, but you could probably disconnect the knocker from the replay circuit and wire it into the extra ball circuit.

#7 8 months ago

The problem with Aladdin's Castle at least is that the extra ball relay looks like it's locked on when activated (to keep the shoot again lamps on). So you'd need to pulse the knocker coil once right when you collect the extra ball, and not keep doing it otherwise. A new circuit could be added to do this.... find whatever pulses the extra ball relay initially and add a circuit to pulse the knocker. There shouldn't be feedback from the knocker to the rest of the circuit as when the plug is moved to extra ball instead of replay there won't be a connection path that way.

If you read the EM schematics decoded threads by xsvtoys
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-schematic-fully-described-from-beginning-to-end-bally-bon-voyage
and
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-machine-complete-circuit-description-2-bally-monte-carlo#post-5205203

you can get an idea of what's involved in each circuit, and possibly how to modify it.

#8 8 months ago

If you love the knocker that much, wire it off one of the scoring relays, or better yet buy one of the EMs that actually uses the knocker for scoring before it became a replay feature. You will get plenty of knocker that way.

#9 8 months ago

O-din, I don't want to hear the knocker all the time all game long, just when an extra ball is reached.

#10 8 months ago

@slochar 's post above also applies to Williams Grand Prix.

Quoted from slochar:

the extra ball relay looks like it's locked on when activated

Quoted from slochar:

So you'd need to pulse the knocker coil once right when you collect the extra ball

Quoted from slochar:

A new circuit could be added to do this

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-it-possible-to-set-an-em-for-credit-and-extra-ball-at-the-same-time#post-5310948

#11 8 months ago

I would think the easiest way to do this would be to have all the settings to “credit”, so you get the knock. But have a wire to engage the EB relay when the knocker fires.

#12 8 months ago
Quoted from DNO:

I would think the easiest way to do this would be to have all the settings to “credit”, so you get the knock. But have a wire to engage the EB relay when the knocker fires.

Nothing like simplicity there. Makes much more sense and a lot easier to implement.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from DNO:

I would think the easiest way to do this would be to have all the settings to “credit”, so you get the knock. But have a wire to engage the EB relay when the knocker fires.

If your game's Extra Ball relay has its own hold switch, that wire will lock the knocker on which will burn it out. Add a relay to isolate the circuits.

#14 8 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:If your game's Extra Ball relay has its own hold switch, that wire will lock the knocker on which will burn it out. Add a relay to isolate the circuits.

Wouldn't the extra ball relay hold switch only lock on the "same player shoots again" light?

#15 8 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

If you love the knocker that much

I love knockers

#16 8 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If your game's Extra Ball relay has its own hold switch, that wire will lock the knocker on which will burn it out. Add a relay to isolate the circuits.

I think you’re right, jumping them together would make the EB relay hold the knocker on as well. Would a diode on the jumper work?

#17 8 months ago

Hi hjh632
the problem as said by other pinsiders (and You wrote about in post-1) : The solenoid / coil on the Knocker sticking pulled as long as the Extraball-Relay pulls.

I know a solution - not 100% - maybe 80% solution - we may blandish*** / sweet talk / whitewash (words from a dictionnaire) the rest (20%) ...

Lets have an Grand Prix in Replay mode - we can make replays by the counters (Score-Drums) - making an Special , through Number-Match feature. AND the Grand Prix has an standalone Extraball-Feature - see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1072&picno=43161 and here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1072&picno=35555 - through an lit Inlane.
In Replay mode the Knocker knocks when we make an Replay - the Knocker does not knock when we make an Extraball.

You want to set the pin to Extraball-Mode (((we may say as well Add-a-Ball mode))) - You must disable the Number-Match feature. My 80% solution makes the Knocker to knock in the situations: Make an Extraball by the counters (Score-Drums) - making an Special. The standalone Extraball-Feature does also work - but (the 20%) : The Knocker will not knock.

In post-1 You wrote: "dont care getting credit / replay". See the JPG - an old picture of the Replay-Unit in my Williams Shangri La. When I lift the arm "marked with an rosa / pink dash" - and keep it permanently lifted: The horizontal (step-up) plunger and the vertical arm still can move and so the E.O.S. (End-of-Stroke) Switch "orange 3" still is actuated. And You mount another stand-up leaf-switch at "orange 3" to also be actuated - and the new switch then is wired to make the Extraball-Relay to pull-in. Means You have the pin in Replay mode - but will be rewarded with "Extraball".
(((I will brood over "can we do it without adding an new switch" - but I am not very optimistic)))

blandish***: The old - very common Extraball-Feature is just not worth to be rewarded with a Knocker-knock. Greetings Rolf

0Shangri-La-Replay-Unit10 (resized).jpg
#18 8 months ago

Hi hjh632
You did not write what You think about my suggestion (post-17).
When You switch the Adj-Plug from "Replay-Mode" to "Extraball-Mode" and want to have the Knocker to knock for ALL different ways "making an Extraball": You need a relay that pulls-in for a short period of time (to let current flow to the coil on the Knocker) - THEN the relay must quit pulling (to stop the current to flow to the coil on the Knocker).
Here https://www.finder-relais.net/en/finder-relays-series-85.pdf there is such an relay. In my JPG (here) I show snippets of the "Finder-documentation". The function "GI" is of interest --- the coil on the knocker will get current for 0.5 second, the function "DI" should also work - the time "... will get current" is adjustable --- I am not 100% sure how the function "DI" works - but for sure the function "AI" hooked together with an Finder-Relay type 40.52 ... also works. See 40.52 here https://www.finder-relais.net/de/finder-relais-serie-40.pdf .

I once bought me in Zuerich (Zürich) such an Finder-85.02 ... relay for an mod on my Gottlieb Joker Poker SS --- I did use the "AI" function together with some 40.52 relays. On December the fourth I will be in Zuerich again - I could go to the "kind of an Radio-Shack" store I have bought the relays - go there and ask about the "DI" function.

The wiring You must do is quite easy to do - BUT the costs ... 40.52 relays I can buy for around 7 US-Dollars - the needed 85.02 - pooh --- I paid something like 30 or maybe 50 dollars. When I do Google-Search for buying Finder-85.02 relay I always land on european sites - I do not know if You can buy such relays in the USA and what price You must pay.

Here https://produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/175000-199999/195901-as-01-de-Ein__und_Ausschalt_Verzoegerung.pdf only look at the last page - the schematics --- You may ask the electronic-freaks in pinside for a kit to buy to make an "pull-in, after (maximum 0.5 second ?) some time quit pulling" goodie for Your "Extraball-Modifation making the Knocker to knock". Greetings Rolf

0Finder-spec-Relays-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#19 8 months ago

Hey Rolf, Do you think something like this (24 volt version) would work similarly to the relays you mentioned?

ebay.com link » Dc5v 12v 24v Infinite Cycle Delay Timing Timer Relay Switch Loop Module 1s 15min

#20 8 months ago

Hi edednedy
I do not understand much on electronic stuff --- I suggest to start an new topic in an SS-section here in pinside - asking for help. In EM-pins You in the USA have at hand 110VAC - 48 or 24VAC - maybe also 48 / 24DC as there is an rectifier in the pin - would this EM-Pin rectified DC be good enough DC-feeding for a kit You buy ? Well, I clicked on the link (in Your post-19) - nice - load power AC 0 to 250 Volt - what is DC + - 12Volt ? - are "Turn on / Turn off" sockets to plug-in wires where we then can let flow (or not flow) pinball-machine current (for our needs) --- I do not give advice on stuff I do not know. I know I did implement an Finder-85.02 relay in my Joker-Poker-mod and it did work.
(((As I have taken out the stuff - (I may sell the Joker Poker) - I am thinking about: To use the Finder-85.02 relay in another way - using the "SW" function - rapidly on-switching -off-switching etc. current --- using in the feeding line to a score-motor --- the motor will turn at half speed --- maybe I can use this half-speed turning on "problemshooting when motor-switches are in question"))) Greetings Rolf

#21 8 months ago

This reminds me of my thread, I also wanted the knocker to sound when Added Ball awarded as AAB disabled the replay stepper hence knocker. The games were Rocket III and MiniZag fitted with the AAB kit, but the thread may be of interest.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/adding-knocker-to-bally-aab-added-ball-kit-models

#22 8 months ago

Hi rolf_martin_062,

What you propose in words and diagrams is way over my head. Having the knocker sound for free balls would have been nice but the amount of work and changes can't be justified. I was hoping for a simple solution of just hooking up a wire or two, but I can see from the discussions that the fix must be much more complicated. I thank you all for the time and creativity you have shown in an attempt to help me. Henry

#23 8 months ago

It probably can be a wire or two. It's finding the appropriate circuit that's complicated....

#24 8 months ago

There's probably other ways, but splicing in a Latch/Trip Relay would do the trick..

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
700 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Plano, TX
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
900
Machine - For Sale
Sparta, MI
$ 40.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Arcade Arts
$ 99.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 15.00
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
$ 99.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 36.00
Playfield - Other
Pin Monk
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
From: $ 95.00
Playfield - Plastics
Ramp-O-Matic
$ 17.50
Hardware
Pinball Haus
$ 109.99
$ 35.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
3D MODS
$ 54.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 40.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
SIlverball In Play
From: $ 65.00
Lighting - Other
Professor Pinball
From: $ 218.00
$ 60.00
$ 135.00
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
Lit Frames
$ 137.00

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside