(Topic ID: 228458)

Is it ok to criticize pins or manufacturers?


By Crile1

7 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by tamoore
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 7 months ago

    There are times when a pin is announced or released that is divisive to the community such as the recent Beatles release as well as Batman '66, Ghostbusters and Hobbit (to name a few). Also, sometimes a manufacturer says something or makes a move in a direction that may stir some controversy, such as Homepin, Heighway, or Deeproot. Once one of these events happen, there is usually a forum topic generated about said game or manufacturer or both. Inevitably some folks will bring the argument, "don't like it, don't buy it, and don't criticize." A recent podcast (you know who) brought up that argument and that there is no need for folks to criticize or bash a game or manufacturer (although said podcaster then pretty much turns around and tears down a manufacturer). But, it brings up a point. Is it okay to voice your negative opinion about games and manufacturers? I say it is totally okay, with the following exceptions:

    1) Don't come in and drop negative comments on a pin in an owner's thread. That thread is for people who paid their hard earned money for that game, or those who are looking for information on that game, or fellow owners discussing fixes, mods, rules, etc.

    2) Don't make personal attacks. Yeah, it's in the Pinside moderation rules, but people do it anyway

    3) Don't criticize a game in a For Sale thread. It's just not polite. It's like picketing in front of a store.

    If you don't like a game, then saying so in the game's general thread or starting your own thread is fair game, in my opinion. Keep it clean and play nice. Now I leave it open to the rest of Pinside. What do you say about game and/or manufacturer criticism. When/where is okay and where is it bad. And when does it become toxic?

    #2 7 months ago

    There is voicing criticism and beating a dead horse. At a certain point it becomes a giant circle jerk.

    But I get it, there's not a lot to discuss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    #3 7 months ago

    I agree with your 3 points and most people play nice but some can't help themselves.
    Good thing there's no way I'm buying a new machine and I can just settle in on the b/w vs everyone else battle.

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    #4 7 months ago

    Oh, here we go...................

    #5 7 months ago

    My two cents is that people are free to say whatever. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think a random stranger on the internets opinion has some impact on what they think or feel. Sure we all get carried away and fired up once in a while. I personally find the people that get upset far more idiotic than people just stating their opinion. I will grant you the people that just drone on and one endlessly do get very tiresome but I'll just move on or hit ignore.

    #6 7 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    My two cents is that people are free to say whatever. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think a random stranger on the internets opinion has some impact on what they think or feel. Sure we all get carried away and fired up once in a while. I personally find the people that get upset far more idiotic than people just stating their opinion. I will grant you the people that just drone on and one endlessly do get very tiresome but I'll just move on or hit ignore.

    Totally agree.

    #7 7 months ago

    only if its stern!

    #8 7 months ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    Is it okay to voice your negative opinion about games and manufacturers?

    Certainly, as long as it remains somewhat respectful and doesn't turn into a tirade of swearing and insults--which doesn't usually happen in most cases.

    There is also a "broken record" rule in place--posting the same thing over and over again in the same thread or across multiple threads. There are certain people who have a serious axe to grind about certain games/companies, and they sometimes get carried away. Anyone who reaches that point will get a warning if it starts becoming excessive, followed by thread or sub-forum ejections if it continues. This isn't a problem for most people, though.

    Quoted from Crile1:

    1) Don't come in and drop negative comments on a pin in an owner's thread. That thread is for people who paid their hard earned money for that game, or those who are looking for information on that game, or fellow owners discussing fixes, mods, rules, etc.

    True, club threads are mostly positive threads. Owners are probably aware of the flaws in their game, but for the most part, participants generally just want to share their enthusiasm about a game, modding info, tech repair info, etc. Someone who barges in and triggers the "broken record" or trolling rule will likely be booted from the thread.

    Quoted from Crile1:

    3) Don't criticize a game in a For Sale thread. It's just not polite. It's like picketing in front of a store.

    Yes, FS threads generally aren't usually the right place for debates/negativity about a title--but that depends on the flow of the conversation that is being held, and if it's being respectful and not triggering the broken record, personal attacks, or trolling rules. Comments/criticisms about the condition or pricing are usually fine.

    Most people are able to contain themselves and have cordial/respectful conversations even if they have differing opinions--we won't stop conversations like that. However, a select few tend to have trouble with expressing their opinions and respecting the opinions of others, and generally get moderated when they go too far.

    #9 7 months ago

    Yes it's ok.....................plenty to complain about.

    #10 7 months ago

    I agree as well with your 3 points, that's how it should be. I think a general announcement thread is fair game to criticize a game or complain about it (without personal attacks of course) but not in the others you mentioned.

    #11 7 months ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    My two cents is that people are free to say whatever. I really don't understand why so many people seem to think a random stranger on the internets opinion has some impact on what they think or feel. Sure we all get carried away and fired up once in a while. I personally find the people that get upset far more idiotic than people just stating their opinion. I will grant you the people that just drone on and one endlessly do get very tiresome but I'll just move on or hit ignore.

    More manufacturers more competition.
    Prices have never been so high, ever. So people are more hard to please.
    The more a manufacturer is close to buyer expectations the more he wins.
    Cristicism is ok for me as long as it is fair and constructive.

    #12 7 months ago

    Kindly add a poll with a few options to help organize the opinions.
    -Mike

    #15 7 months ago

    Money speaks louder than words...

    #16 7 months ago
    Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:

    Money speaks louder than words...

    Taylor Swift has sold more albums world wide than Frank Sinatra. Soooooo....

    #17 7 months ago
    Quoted from dirtbag66:

    Taylor Swift has sold more albums world wide than Frank Sinatra. Soooooo....

    Guess more people like Taylor Swift than Frank Sinatra...

    #18 7 months ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    Is it ok to criticize pins or manufacturers?

    Only if you are posting on Pinside.

    #19 7 months ago

    Dont be a snowflake. Get over it, people disagree, its ok.

    #20 7 months ago

    When someone on Pinside says “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it!”, this is what they really mean:

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    #21 7 months ago

    If I think something is shit. I'll say it's shit.
    I don't give a $&@# about people's feelings.
    Because I know, that anyone who feels the need to start a heated arguement about how I feel, doesn't give a $&@# about mine.

    That's the way the real world works.
    People have different opinions. Just don't take it personally.

    Pinball is just a product. As with any product, there are good and bad ones.

    IMHO recently a lot of bad decisions have been made by a certain company. Lacking quality and innovation. I just hope it changes. And that as a group, the collector market gets out of the fanboy stage and demands better.

    #22 7 months ago

    There’s always a way to express an opinion politely. If we all did that, it wouldn’t be a problem.

    #23 7 months ago

    Refer to the golden rule.

    #24 7 months ago

    Does Howdy Doody have wooden balls?!

    #25 7 months ago

    Please allow me to insert my two cents.

    2 cents (resized).jpg
    #26 7 months ago

    Biggest problem here is the same problem they have on auto forums, not everyone is a Ford man, not everyone is a Chevy man, and I am not sure what kind of man drives a Mopar, but when they start criticizing each others favorite manufacturers, it turns into a shit show real quick, with all the same players we see on here, just different nicknames/handles.

    I dont mind criticism in a critically titled thread, like “Everything wrong with <insert pin title here>” or to have a thread saying “Stern sucks!”, (which is debatable) because jumping into it you know what to expect. When a thread is sales or promotion or any post that is soliciting your patronage or providing some offer, those threads should not be violated with this crapshow, however there will be a vocal minority saying even that violates their rights to an opinion, so we are back to the shit show and probably will remain that way for the unforeseeable future.

    #27 7 months ago

    Those who say it's not ok to criticize manufacturers are doing so for their own personal benefit. They are usually either making money off of pinball or trying to protect their own personal relationships.

    #28 7 months ago

    Just don’t say Stern playfields dimple worse than BW or JJP and you’re good.

    #29 7 months ago

    I have only gotten moderated for criticizing "themes".

    Of course in today's pinball world that covers just about any and all manufacturers.

    #30 7 months ago
    charassasin02 (resized).jpg
    #31 7 months ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    1) Don't come in and drop negative comments on a pin in an owner's thread. That thread is for people who paid their hard earned money for that game, or those who are looking for information on that game, or fellow owners discussing fixes, mods, rules, etc.
    2) Don't make personal attacks. Yeah, it's in the Pinside moderation rules, but people do it anyway
    3) Don't criticize a game in a For Sale thread. It's just not polite. It's like picketing in front of a store.

    I pretty much agree with this.

    Cool...but this site isn't the government hindering your right to express your opinion. There are literally millions of example of things you can't say in a particular venue that have no relation to "free speech".

    #32 7 months ago

    I would say no issues except in the case of the DI release where Lawlor was personally attacked. Now DI is a top 10 pin. Go figure some people...

    #33 7 months ago
    Quoted from lpeters82:There are literally millions of examples of things you can't say in a particular venue that have no relation to "free speech".

    like yelling 'fire' in a crowed theater when there is no fire?

    you might have to think about that one for a minute to understand how it relates to pinside.

    Quoted from lpeters82:

    but this site isn't the government hindering your right to express your opinion.

    correct. not even close. but in which direction?

    #34 7 months ago
    Quoted from greenhornet:

    like yelling 'fire' in a crowed theater when there is no fire?
    you might have to think about that one for a minute to understand how it relates to pinside.

    I was thinking more along the lines of how yelling anything in a crowed theater can get you kicked out. It's a theater; people are there to enjoy a show. Just like this site; you either follow the rules or you might be asked to leave. Neither is a First Amendment issue.

    Quoted from greenhornet:

    correct. not even close. but in which direction?

    Um...more restrictive.

    EDIT: I should add, that while I don't agree with many of your bashing posts, it's more of an issue of you doing it repeatedly in de facto owner forums. I wouldn't mind it as much if you started a single "I hate _______ thread". However, I think trashing games in those other forums over, and over, and over just comes across as trolling.

    #35 7 months ago
    Quoted from ArcadiusMaximus:

    Guess more people like Taylor Swift than Frank Sinatra...

    Well now we can't really assign any blame there......

    #36 7 months ago

    If there are people who are in possession of relevant information that will help to sway their purchasing decision in order for others to avoid losing financially or suffering some other form of hardship then there lies a moral obligation on the part of that individual to disseminate that information to the community.

    Censorship based on misguided loyalties and commercial bias simply needs to be put aside for the greater good of the community itself rather than pandering to minority (typically financial based) interests from those who primarily operate in the shadows of pinside with little to no actual substantive contribution.

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Certainly, as long as it remains somewhat respectful and doesn't turn into a tirade of swearing and insults--which doesn't usually happen in most cases.
    There is also a "broken record" rule in place--posting the same thing over and over again in the same thread or across multiple threads. There are certain people who have a serious axe to grind about certain games/companies, and they sometimes get carried away. Anyone who reaches that point will get a warning if it starts becoming excessive, followed by thread or sub-forum ejections if it continues. This isn't a problem for most people, though.

    Of course the imaginary threat of an international lawsuit from a bunch of Aussie bogans will most certainly expedite that process to the point of overzealous pettiness.

    Quoted from Maken:

    Those who say it's not ok to criticize manufacturers are doing so for their own personal benefit. They are usually either making money off of pinball or trying to protect their own personal relationships.

    Extend that observation to include commercial retailers and dealer importers and you have the Australian pinball scene in a nutshell.

    #37 7 months ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    1) Don't come in and drop negative comments on a pin in an owner's thread. That thread is for people who paid their hard earned money for that game, or those who are looking for information on that game, or fellow owners discussing fixes, mods, rules, etc.

    Ridiculous. If someone owns a pin/car/house/etc., they can say whatever they want. Only saying positive things to protect your "hard earned money" is bizarre. If everyone behaved this way, products would never improve. Example: I own Iron Maiden and the captive ball mechanism is a joke. It sucks. Is this a negative comment? I guess so. Am I allowed to utter those words in an owner's thread. Yes I am.

    snaroff

    #38 7 months ago

    Like it or not, other people's opinions help form our own opinion. If someone points out something on a machine that is horrible, and several others agree it influences us. It's human nature, and tangibly affects the price of a machine in the resale market. It becomes more of an influence for people new to the hobby but really effects everyone to a certain degree. Anyone who says other people's opinions doesn't effect them is either lying or delusional.

    On the other hand, I would have paid a lot more for my current line up (Hobbit, XMen LE and Ghostbusters) if they were universally loved (like say Woz, Tron and Metallica) instead of unfairly bashed.

    #39 7 months ago

    Anyone should be able to freely express their opinion about any pin or manufacturer. This is called free speech. So I totally disagree with pinsiders that say we should always withold our opinions because it’s a new manufacturer or for whatever other reason.

    However, there are socials norms to follow here so there is a time and place for this. For example, at one extreme, your criticism of a game is not welcome in a marketplace ad. If you feel the need to just rail on a game, then start your own thread. Also, pinball is hard, so give others a bit of a break sometimes.

    There are a lot of grey areas here so not always clear on exact rules to follow but just generally be respectful to others. Ultimately though, pinsiders should be able to express their views somewhere on pinside. And be thankful that our countries allow us the option to express our opinions publicly.

    #40 7 months ago

    Of course.

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