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(Topic ID: 271600)

Is it cheating?


By kidchrisso

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 60 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by chas10e
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    Topic poll

    “Multiball due to a slide(death) save, did you cheat?”

    • Yea, of course. 60 votes
      57%
    • Nope, game let you do it. 23 votes
      22%
    • I don't have the skills to pull it off. 16 votes
      15%
    • Shake it like Shakira! 6 votes
      6%

    (105 votes)

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    There are 60 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 4 months ago

    If you are playing a game and your ball goes down the out lane while you have the ball save; you perform a effective slide(death) save to bring the ball back into play and get the machine generated ball save plunge from the trough, giving you now two balls in play. Is it cheating?

    11
    #2 4 months ago

    Outlane would be a death save; so yeah, cheating.

    #3 4 months ago

    On my Rocky & Bullwinkle if you do that it actually says "nice death save" on the screen

    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Outlane would be a death save; so yeah, cheating.

    #4 4 months ago

    If you have your anticheat devices adjusted properly, they should penalize you if you are overly moving the machine.

    #5 4 months ago

    If you don't tilt, its fair.

    #6 4 months ago

    In competitive pinball with any integrity, a slide save is illegal. End of discussion.

    #7 4 months ago

    Tighten the tilt.
    But yes an outlane drain is a drain, unless it goes fast enough to come back up of it own volition. And even then, if it auto-launched a second ball via ball save, you are playing a 2 ball MB, during single ball play. Also cheating.

    #8 4 months ago
    Quoted from kidchrisso:

    If you are playing a game and your ball goes down the out lane while you have the ball save; you perform a effective slide save to bring the ball back into play and get the machine generated ball save plunge from the trough, giving you now two balls in play. Is it cheating?

    Yes. Can’t have two balls in play during single ball play.

    #9 4 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Yes. Can’t have two balls in play during single ball play.

    But....if the game doesn't tilt you out....hum?

    #10 4 months ago
    Quoted from Pinmeister:

    If you don't tilt, its fair.

    Yes, those that designed the games have for years made it so the tilt will determine who is trying to cheat or not. Anything else is just fake rules.

    Your game, you chose how tight you want them.

    #11 4 months ago
    Quoted from kidchrisso:

    But....if the game doesn't tilt you out....hum?

    Doesn’t matter. It’s illegal to play with multiple balls in single ball play. Also bringing a ball back into play from an outlane drain with nudging or sliding is illegal.

    But even if it was fast enough that the ball bounced back into play on its own, you still have to drain one.

    #12 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    If you have your anticheat devices adjusted properly, they should penalize you if you are overly moving the machine.

    correct, but your ball may not end if you only get a double danger...

    #13 4 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    But even if it was fast enough that the ball bounced back into play on its own, you still have to drain one.

    This....the slide save part is irrelevant. If you are so good you could do it and no one would ever know you would still have the 2 ball issue.
    Balls going to outlanes and back in play is pretty common, especially with modern Sterns.

    #14 4 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Doesn’t matter. It’s illegal to play with multiple balls in single ball play. Also bringing a ball back into play from an outlane drain with nudging or sliding is illegal.
    But even if it was fast enough that the ball bounced back into play on its own, you still have to drain one.

    Is that an IFPA rule or just one that is made up by players. Understand that I am not a competitive player... well I played in one comp but have never read the rules.

    #15 4 months ago
    Quoted from kidchrisso:

    Is that an IFPA rule or just one that is made up by players. Understand that I am not a competitive player... well I played in one comp but have never read the rules.

    It’s an accepted IFPA/PAPA rule. And in your example you broke two of their rules.

    #16 4 months ago

    I think its best to say that it is illegal in tournament play, but all's fair at the arcade or in your own home.

    #17 4 months ago

    Not allowed in competitive play.

    Not cheating if you are just playing a game for fun. Operator (or owner) can adjust tilt sensitivity to disallow.

    #18 4 months ago
    Quoted from kidchrisso:

    correct, but your ball may not end if you only get a double danger...

    Get rid of warnings is an option. And if you are playing at home or on location, it is however the owner of the game has it set up that will determine if it is cheating or not buy that and the tilt setting.

    Again, anything else is just fake rules. I won't play where they make up rules that aren't in the game.

    13
    #19 4 months ago

    It’s silly to ask if it’s illegal outside of tournament play. There are ZERO rules when playing for fun. Haha

    #20 4 months ago

    Tournament play sounds like a drag. Are there any other restrictions like no shirt, no shoes, no dice?

    #21 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Get rid of warnings is an option. And if you are playing at home or on location, it is however the owner of the game has it set up that will determine if it is cheating or not buy that and the tilt setting.
    Again, anything else is just fake rules. I won't play where they make up rules that aren't in the game.

    That's part of my point. The object is to keep your ball/'s in play. If you can do it with out tilting the game...I vote for "game on"

    I have had others tell me your cheating...hog wash!

    #22 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Tournament play sounds like a drag. Are there any other restrictions like no shirt, no shoes, no dice?

    omg...lol

    #23 4 months ago
    Quoted from kidchrisso:

    That's part of my point. The object is to keep your ball/'s in play. If you can do it with out tilting the game...I vote for "game on"

    That's fine by me, a good bang back has always been an art form.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Tournament play sounds like a drag. Are there any other restrictions like no shirt, no shoes, no dice?

    Well there are a bunch of other rules and things that make it less fun to play the actual game of course; the fun comes from the competition the same way as home.
    Believe me, the IFPA can get too nerdy with the rules.

    #24 4 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    the fun comes from the competition the same way as home.

    Does your competitor in tournament pay out of pocket for each game you beat him?

    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Believe me, the IFPA can get too nerdy with the rules.

    I'm still having a hard time grasping at what point pinball became a nerdy thing. Used to be only cool people played pinball.

    #25 4 months ago

    If IFPA has a ban on nudging, we need to ban the IFPA or create a new organization with a real pinball philosophy. Nudging I consider an artful skill and integral to the game. Nothing will convince me otherwise. Its just dumb that you can can only interact with the machine with your fingertips.

    #26 4 months ago

    In a home environment there is no such thing as cheating, you can pull the tilt bulb off, put a sock up the middle and lift the machine to save, rubber bands on the outlines, death saves, slide saves, bang backs, hell play with the glass off too. Home scores mean nothing in the whole scheme of things due to various setups. The only way to truly know if you are a better player than someone else is on the same game setup playing competitively within competition rules.

    BTW all the above are considered "cheating" if you playing in any type of competitive play.

    -1
    #27 4 months ago

    Tighten your tilt. Problem solved.

    #28 4 months ago
    Quoted from holminone:

    we need to ban the IFPA or create a new organization with a real pinball philosophy.

    If we ban the IFPA does that also get rid of the nerds and their philosophies?

    These must be people that were weened on video games where shaking the machine did no good.

    #29 4 months ago

    All top competitive players in the world not only nudge, but also skillfully use up their two dangers on modern machines every ball. In fact if a machine is setup wrong they will abuse it till the cows come home to crazy scores.

    Quoted from holminone:

    If IFPA has a ban on nudging, we need to ban the IFPA or create a new organization with a real pinball philosophy. Nudging I consider an artful skill and integral to the game. Nothing will convince me otherwise. Its just dumb that you can can only interact with the machine with your fingertips.

    #30 4 months ago
    Quoted from holminone:

    If IFPA has a ban on nudging

    Who said this?

    #31 4 months ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    also skillfully use up their two dangers on modern machines every ball.

    So do these nerds actually add tilt warnings to games that by default setting did not have them?

    #32 4 months ago

    Do you even play pinball?

    The majority of machines made in the past 30 years have default tilt warnings on them normally set at 2 warnings.

    Quoted from o-din:

    So do these nerds actually add tilt warnings to games that by default setting did not have them?

    #33 4 months ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    The majority of machines made in the past 30 years have default tilt warnings on them normally set at 2 warnings.

    I could come up with some that don't. But since you are so smart, I'll let you figure it out.

    #34 4 months ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    Tighten the tilt.
    But yes an outlane drain is a drain, unless it goes fast enough to come back up of it own volition. And even then, if it auto-launched a second ball via ball save, you are playing a 2 ball MB, during single ball play. Also cheating.

    no and if there is an rebound to get it back you with out death saveing should keep it and yes games do save on outline hit and the game will track both balls.

    #35 4 months ago

    Your house, your pin, your rules.

    However, someone else's pin, tournament play, comparing scores online, then that's a different issue altogether.

    #36 4 months ago

    I guess that is why the nerd in me said majority. Cool guy.

    Quoted from o-din:

    I could come up with some that don't. But since you are so smart, I'll let you figure it out.

    #37 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    So do these nerds actually add tilt warnings to games that by default setting did not have them?

    No, not as a “rule”
    And you obviously don’t know how much fun us “nerds” have.
    But that’s ok.
    Comp. pinball isn’t all about rules, and they rarely really come into play during the course of most tournaments, and to most players in that tournament.
    But when they are needed, they are needed, correct?
    So it is nice to have a gold standard of rules, and thankfully the IFPA has provided that.
    So the answer to the OPs question is obvious, and clear.
    And having rules doesn’t kill the fun of competition.

    #38 4 months ago

    Don't you know that more than a third of household injuries occur while bathing or in the shower? That’s just being downright irresponsible.

    #39 4 months ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    In competitive pinball with any integrity, a slide save is illegal. End of discussion.

    A "slide save" is generally done if the ball is heading straight down the middle "SDTM" "sliding the machine from under the ball as it is traveling so as to have it reach a flipper-tip to keep the ball in play. If a leg leveler comes out if a rubber foot it is ruled an illegal move. but if rubber foot remains in place it's considered fair play.

    A "Death save" is as the OP described, ball traveling down the right outlane and when it reaches near the outhole an aggressive sliding action will have it bounce off the apron and back into play. Some games will launch another ball during ball save when it hits the outlane switch instead of the outhole switch.

    If a "Lazarus" ball occurred and 2 ball were in play as the OP described it would be best to try and catch them both for a ruling to be made. usually the official would know the machine and tell you to let one ball drain, to ensure you were not penalized a ball.

    I could only select one of the items in the poll. Q: Is it cheating? A: Yea, of course; Q: should it be done in "practice" at home? A: Yea, of course.

    #40 4 months ago
    3473CDA4-380C-4929-B355-1B8AB6FACE45 (resized).png
    #41 4 months ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    I guess that is why the nerd in me said majority. Cool guy.

    Just for your sake, I checked my High Roller Casino, a modern Stern and 2 tilt warnings is not even an option. Default is 1 and 3 is an option, but no 2.

    So I guess a nerd couldn't even set it to 2 unless he rewrote the code. Fortunately, the master already rewrote his code and it is perfect just the way it is.

    #42 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    So do these nerds actually add tilt warnings to games that by default setting did not have them?

    I'm not sure the history of "tilt warnings" Usually issued 2 tilt warnings per ball, however Jersey Jack machines are set by default 2 tilt warnings PER GAME

    #43 4 months ago
    Quoted from chas10e:

    I'm not sure the history of "tilt warnings" Usually issued 2 tilt warnings per ball

    As pointed out above the Stern SPI adjustment doesn't even have 2 as an option. 1 or 3 or none. 1 by default. Can't remember how many others in that era are like that because they hit the road so long ago..

    #44 4 months ago

    Lol... Just for sake of argument they use normally use the default setting for tilt warning in competitive play. Yes, you are right a few machines do have the famous 1 or 3 setting on them. TD’s won’t normally adjust a tilt warning software they will just adjust the sensitivity of the tilt bulb.

    Quoted from o-din:

    Just for your sake, I checked my High Roller Casino, a modern Stern and 2 tilt warnings is not even an option. Default is 1 and 3 is an option, but no 2.
    So I guess a nerd couldn't even set it to 2 unless he rewrote the code. Fortunately, the master already rewrote his code and it is perfect just the way it is.

    #45 4 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Who said this?

    I think post 15, 16, and 17. Upon re-reading I think they were talking death save. Good. Cause I get warnings a lot. Love em.

    #46 4 months ago

    Since we are finally coming up with some technical info in this thread beyond the fake rules, what was the first game with a tilt warning option and what was the default setting on it?

    I honestly don't know or remember if I did. I guess the nerd in me now needs to know.

    #47 4 months ago

    I only know *DANGER**DANGER* on F-14 Tomcat is a good thing

    #48 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Does your competitor in tournament pay out of pocket for each game you beat him?

    I'm still having a hard time grasping at what point pinball became a nerdy thing. Used to be only cool people played pinball.

    When people like TheLaw came in, that guy is a total dweeb.

    In all seriousness, deathsaves are “cheating” in a tournament and whenever the rules are dictated as such.

    I’m not gonna name names but at a local league we have ONE GUY who bitches up a storm and literally has IFPA rules pulled up at all times, yet he’s not even an elite player, he’s just one of those “PTA mom” types.

    I personally wouldn’t like people to do deathsaves and bangbacks and power plunges on my games, but others don’t give a shit so that’s there call.

    If someone SUCCESSFULLY makes a deathsave or a bangback I always find it impressive.
    The problem is I watch so many dickheads slam games into walls and still tilt it out anyway.
    Thanks for f@$king up my wall AND my game for nothing. Hoser!

    #49 4 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    As pointed out above the Stern SPI adjustment doesn't even have 2 as an option. 1 or 3 or none. 1 by default. Can't remember how many others in that era are like that because they hit the road so long ago..

    The 1 means “Danger” and then tilt.
    One warning
    3 means “Danger” then “Danger Danger” then tilt. Technically your double danger is 2 warnings. So combined that’s 3 and then tilt.

    Isn’t that how it works? I might be wrong on this one, it could also refer to the amount of times the tilt bob makes contact before it tilts out. 1 contact or 3 contacts.

    #50 4 months ago
    Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

    The 1 means “Danger” and then tilt.
    One warning
    3 means “Danger” then “Danger Danger” then tilt. Technically your double danger is 2 warnings. So combined that’s 3 and then tilt.

    Isn’t that how it works?

    I'd have to check it on the 3, but I have it set to factory default at 1. I'm just not in the mood to monkey with it now. Seems there was some other game with zero warnings by default, but I can't think of it at the moment.

    How I set my tilt on all my games including ones without warnings is I have a few drinks and if I tilt the same machine twice in the same session it is just a tad too tight.

    Sometimes I think I should just do away with all the tilt warnings on games that have them, set the bob tight, and let it ride from there.

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