But you can getused parts for the b/w alot easier thansterns and probably cheaper.

the b/w games aren't getting routed like they used to, so I'd think if they've lasted this long and are in good shape they'll be good for a long time.

Same reasoning still applies I think: whether it's a Stern or a B/W, design and play will always dictate price. Can't picture a DM or a JD going for $5k+ just because they're older.

(Sorry DM AND JD OWNERS! No offense meant! I actually like these titles a bit!)

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

I was thinking the same way as you, and I did what you're suggesting (buying all my favorite B/W's first). I figured I could get newer good shape Sterns in the future easier than I could get my old B/W favorites. But... there's some low production numbers on some of the newer Sterns, and I don't know if we'll ever know exactly how many were ever produced for sure.

It's kind of a crap shoot. Look at Stern's IM. Almost every loves it, and I think it's got a pretty low production figure. A lot will probably end up in people's collections as a keeper, so it may be hard to get and highly valued from here on out. A lot of other top Sterns could fit this bill.

Bottom line, just make sure you get what you like to play the most, B/W or Stern, as I don't know when the so called "bubble" will burst and make these games more affordable (B/W or Stern).

Good point, most Sterns are produced in far lower numbers than surviving B/W titles (let along all that were produced).

I certainly see more MM's and AFM's for sale than I do IM's.

True story.

Yeah that would be the "smart move" ...lol I couldn't even keep s straight face typing that

Impossible to predict the future.; I personally wouldn't search specific for them but would not pass anything in good quality for a decent price.
Wouldn't go searching for all b/w games at any price / any condition, thinking they will all go up in price.

I think everyone else nailed it. If you're looking at it from a purely investment standpoint, sure, get every game you can and store it away. As far as BW titles who knows. Just because it's a 20+ year old game doesnt mean it's going to turn into AFM range. There is a reason you can get a Gorgar for under $1k. It's all about what people want.

Heck, your best bet is probably to pick up a bunch of new sterns and keep them NIB. Just like Star Wars figured are worth a fair amount unless they are still sealed in their original packaging...then you're talking serious coin!

Just buy what you'd like to play most.
Nobody knows what prices will do in the future.
I started of with mostly B/W but became a great fan of the Stern games also over the last years.

more B/W games get restored over anyone else. If anything there are probably more restored games than there are not restored. I wouldn't rush either way, there isn't a shortage.

Hard to say if that would be a good move, the SS generation of pins devalued EM's. p3-like gen machines may do the same for SS era pins.

Not only do I think this is horrible advice, but won't win you many friends on a pinball enthusiast forum. The only silver lining to people hoarding games and then storing them away is that prices will go back down again.

If Jersey Jack makes it, and Sterns' new system is a home run, there is going to be a lot less interest in the older games. MM will still be MM, but people will save their crazy money for the newest, not an old game that's fun and funny, but at the end of the day just a basic fan layout.

You are asking this question for licence to buy a bunch of games that you want. Do it brother, you won't regret it, and there are not to many things I can be more sure of than that.

I'm nervous and curious about this shift in technology we're going to see over the next couple of years. Will they make dmds look dated and people will lose interest in having them?

:thinking:I have the same thought, but I can't see me not loving the DMD .... But I couldn't see myself not loving the VHS?

Yes pinball 3000 will change the way we play pinball. The dmd machines will be worthless so sell now!!! Just to help you out i'm buying.

I think if you wait a year or two, when the global financials go crumbling down and priorities shift for people, you may be able to pick up some b/w machines for less than they are going for today. That is my strategy atleast.

Yep, wait a year or two....remember 2008, the potential of US financial collapse isn't as great now versus then with our banks but there are plenty of other factors like the debt, deficit, taxes.....etc..

As soon as the Fed stops printing money with QE and rates start going up along with inflation watch out....

Patience...that said, I have none with pins, just picked up NBA fast break and WPT, two really good pins, one Bally...

I think it would be a mistake to think of pinball as an investment. Sure, some games will appreciate substantially. But many will not like Avatar or Big Buck Hunter. Buy what you enjoy playing.

I saw the post on your NBAFB, congratulations my man! I want that machine so bad. haha. I had the opportunity to pick up 2 different ones and passed on both due to the maintenance and parts missing. Everything is bubbling (dollar, debt, markets, etc) and when pop goes the weasel, we could see our hobby drop drastically and that will be the time to drop some of Ben Bernanke's notes on some sweet b/w pins~!

There are a lot better investments out there than pinball.

I would buy the games you enjoy playing the most. Tough to guess where prices will go. I actually think we could see them stagnate or go down for B titles if newer games keep improving. Need to make room for the AC/DC and WOZ.

Then again, I think too much effort is put into guessing where prices will go and basing purchases on it. Pinball is supposed to be fun. I save my investing for stocks and bonds.

At one point they were selling 50,000 games a year in the 90's. There were over 4,000 alone made for example; whereas games like Iron Man had a run closer to 1,000 and games like Shrek, CSI, and 24 had runs of under 500 according to most knowledgable reports. I doubt Tron (the LE and pro combined) had a run of 4,000 games).

I don't think the older games are more "rare", in fact I think they are more common (though I believe AC/DC between the premium, LE's, and pro may end up having 10k machines made, and that would rock).

Asking for advice here is like asking for advice from your main competition. Everyone here wants a good deal on a good pin. But my advice is the same that Jim Cramer would give you:

-Wes

CLIST.jpg

What's up Tiger, one difference between today and yesterday I think is that the huge number of pins back then mostly all made it on location and got played to death, a portion of which have been beautifully restored and more are on the way, and the newer AC/DC's are mostly HUO pins, premium and up and will/should be maintained as such, so if they make 5k premium's over time, maybe 4500 of them will be sitting in a HUO pristine, modded out condition and should be easy to find in the future if you want one...

As we have talked about before, the hobby needs to attract more and more people and dollars to grow and absorb the new and old inventory, there will be some economic speed bump along the way but I love all the excitement and where its going....

No. Buy only what you enjoy playing. With this strategy, you will be too eager to add and likely overpay. Be patient. Buy only what you enjoy - at your own pace.

Modding is the new routing. Today we are all looking for games that were never in a bar. In the future it'll be hard to find games that aren't destroyed via horrible personal taste.

It's sheer arrogance and quite a bit delusional to suggest that the value of pins will continue to escalate at this pace? Is it possible? Sure. Put it this way. I was pretty arrogant myself in the late 90's when I started my career and saw the stock markwt going in one direction- up. Well, then the early 2000's hit and you know the rest of the story. So I've been a teacher for 16 years now and my 403 (b) is slightly above even. I would have done better putting it into a fixed account. Even though the stock market has gone crazy as of late, I've only bought in moderately and do hav eplenty in a fixed account. Could I be missing out a little bit? Sure. But I sure sleep better at night.

Moral of the story- Buy what you like to play and enjoy the hobby. If the value of your pins stays stable or goes up, consider that a bonus. You will sleep better at night too.

Yes horde them ALL while you still can

Some times it looks great and other times it makes the game look ugly

Yes but the difference is a lot of folks will want to buy a modded game. Not many want a routed pin.

There are no guarantees, but lately I have preferred tangible assets ie real estate, guns, and pinball
Over paper investments. If someone tells me my home is worthless I can still live in it (same with my pinball I can still play it)
I suppose when sh!t hits the fan you could use stock certificates for toilet paper

Excellent point. I will see if I can get my wife on board. BTW, I don't think you'll ever have an issue with your house. Short of a giant volcanic eruption or earthquake, the Pacific Northwest is the place to be. I'd like to be there myself one day. I'll just hope that I'm dead and gone when Mt. Shasta or Mt. Rainier or any of the other composite volcanoes in the Cascade range bury the place.

most likely because of the prices they are fetching as opposed to anything else.

Yes, buy all the AR-15s you can.

Seriously, most people only have so much room for pins in their house.

At some point (and I don't pretend I know when this will be) the market will become saturated. The average collector will obviously run out of room or wives sooner or later.

I bought all of my Bally/Williams games in the mid-to-late 90's.They were much cheaper at that time. After selling Many of them off in the 2003-2006 due to Medical bills. I have had to pay double the price to buy back The (A) pinballs Titles I missed. Like TOTAN , Theater of Magic. I am still looking to replace the CV I sold. If you are in the position to send $ 30,000.00 or so than yes absolutely . Buy them before all the inserts start to (ghost) ie: Delaminate. Peace.

I don't see the new pins having any affect on the "classics" (DMD generation). They won't have enough mainstream saturation to have much affect on people outside the collector circle...and there just won't be that many of them. Keep in mind that the 90's games wiped out the earlier SS and EM games because there were 15-20 new games a year by B/W, DE, Gottlieb-Premiere. Now, there are 2 or 3 Sterns a year...maybe a JJP once a year....a boutique game here or there.
The 90's games are set in stone as the pinnacle of pinball fun, sound, design, and rules. I don't think new Sterns, JJP, P3, etc will change that. A good game will stand on its own merits but won't wipe out the desire for the entire DMD generation. RFM is amazing and more modern than the generation before it, but it has had zero impact on prices or values of those games....and that game actually DID get some arcade exposure.

That's the first time that I've ever heard anyone say that.

What do you base this (surprising) statement on?

And what is your definition of "restored"?

I don't agree. A lot of people on Pinside would rather buy a modded game. Most pinball people I know would not.

Not many people want a routed pin? The majority of the 90's Bally/Williams stuff was routed. I think most people on this site and pinball in general would enjoy them just fine HUO or not. It's still the same game.

Well maybe not HEP....but I think it's true to some extent. Years ago you could get routed/broken/dumpy games for cheap all day long. People like me bought them up, cleaned 'n fixed them...and then if I sold that game, it was a nice clean working game going back out into the world. The finite supply of crap games have dwindled because they've been snatched up and fixed...they either stay in collectors homes or go back out for sale nicer than they were originally. Even the Captain's auction games in Anaheim a few weeks ago - those games were pretty clean....definitely worked on and put there by consignors. Not the usual auction "warehouse of crap that's gotta go" games.

As opposed to a sarcastic remark, I'll just point out the wisdom and sensibility expressed in this post.

I don't think there is any chance Stern, JJP or anyone else will ever make 10K of anything, the days of runs of that size are gone.

In 1993 B/W turned out 50,951 games between BSD, IJ, STTNG, TZ and JD, an amazing total, I think in today's world, Stern would be happy to do 1/10th of that. I wish JJP all the luck in the world, but realistically if he can sell 3000 WOZ or Hobbits I think he will be doing well.

Pins used to be every where, remember when every 7/11 had a couple, the landscape is vastly different today.

Some of you must have been in the hobby during the GFC how did it effect pinball was there mass sell offs?

yup... imo, the whole "huo" thing is way overrated, especially since it's a relatively recent phenomenon of a small subset of machines... not to mention "pushed" by a small subset of people...

i'll leave the "modding" activity alone, so as not to raise the ire of some... i will say that adding $1000 (or $2000, or whatever) of "personal preference" to a machine and then expecting that raises the "value" of the machine by a like amount is a philosophy that escapes me...

i wouldn't give a darn if it was routed or not (good thing, as very very few huo em's exist )... if it plays well and works well, what difference does it really make?

If you have the money, I would say buy what you like to play and then the investment doesn't matter one way or the other. Investing in pins is nuts. To really make it worth your while, you would have to a bunch of them, say 100 or so. Then you have to store them, insure them, and wait--and hope, too. Not saying it can't be done, just seems to be other alternatives out there to make the same or more money with less fuss.

Will pins keep going up? Who knows. When Williams quit making pins back in 1999, I remember having a greater sense of urgency to buy the games I really liked. My reasoning at the time was that prices would probably go up significantly on certain B/W titles that I was going to buy at some point, so why wait and pay more later? I certainly didn't envision the price spikes of the past couple of years, though.

Eventually, many people that today only appreciate B/W DMD games will realize that there are other games, say solid state and some EMs that are really fun to play. Collections tend to diversify as they get larger, different eras and mfrs. This sort of thing seems to happen after people play nice examples at shows and become introduced to a cool new game, new to them anyway. Are you going to buy up all those games, too?