(Topic ID: 171050)

Is greed finally going to kill pinball?


By hardware

3 years ago



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  • 105 posts
  • 72 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by cooldan
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 105 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 3 years ago
Quoted from Spitfiren8:

Ughhh, I sound like a dick but the price complaining is getting tiresome.

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, if we don't all voice our concern, then we may not get the message through to the manufacturers. You think JJP and Stern people aren't lurking on Pinside, checking out the community's reaction and opinions? With this much backlash in just these past few hours, surely someone is taking notice.

Of course, it's also all dependent on what people are actually doing with their wallets. If a new crowd of purchasers comes in who are able to afford these "limited edition" games, and aren't pure enthusiasts or hobbyists, the manu's aren't going to care. As long as someone is buying them, they won't worry about pricing out the once normal crowd.

#52 3 years ago

no, jpop is going to kill pinball. he just wont go the fuck away.

#53 3 years ago

I bought several NIB and many older games for $1K - $3K. After owning them for years I play the older games just as often as the NIB. There are many good games in the less than $4K range. I focus on those and leave the NIB $8+K for folks with deeper pockets.
I play my Seawitch, Joker Poker, Judge Dredd or EDB just as often as ACDC or Metallica. They are nice games, no question, but I get about the same level of enjoyment out of much cheaper machines. Some games I would like to own are Last Action Hero, Roller Games and Demolition Man. Those are very fun titles at absolute bargain prices. I can own all 3 in a very nice condition for the price one of those new machines goes for.

#54 3 years ago

From a manufacturer's perspective its about making as much $$ as possible. Is it more profitable to sell 1000 machines at $9K or 2000 machines at $6K? That depends on the material and labor cost and on the factory capacity.
Also long term economics (ie recessions) need to be taken into consideration. If I only produce a few machines at a high profit I might stay in business by dropping the price and still getting by. If I produce many at a tight margin and the economy goes south there will be layoffs followed by a possible bankruptcy.
From a purely economical standpoint its seems to make more sense to sell fewer machines at a high margin. That doesn't mean I, as a consumer, have to run out and buy at those prices.

#55 3 years ago

Yoski get out of here with your reasonable posts...grab your torch and start setting things on fire with the rest of us!

But you're exactly right. I would only add that the manufacturers have been paying attention to the market....they see people making money off the top of new limited edition games (GB, RZ, etc.) and figure if people are willing to pay more, they'll charge more. Especially when a "limited edition" mostly consists of just a number, some different trim or artwork, etc., for a couple thousand dollars more. That's easy money. Some may call that greed, but I think it's a business decision/response to the greedy actions of those flipping LE games for heavy profits to those who actually want them. If the increased prices are too high, the sales numbers will fall, and prices will have to adjust accordingly. Manufacturers will adjust or just get out of the business.

But in the mean time, like you said, you don't have to buy and play the newest titles to enjoy pinball. Plenty of games out there already for less money, many of which are arguably more fun than the new ones.

#56 3 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

How can you magically come up with a price when you don't know the BOM?

.

The BOM is not a fixed number. If the BOM was $20,000, the game wouldn't be built. Somebody would tell someone they are out of their minds and to cut the BOM by 2/3.

You start with what the market will pay for the game, then develop the budget.

#57 3 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

Biggest bargain: $4350 for Alien playfield kit.

Is this even possible? I thought they just said that they changed boards and would require more money if you had the old board set.

#58 3 years ago
Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

.
The BOM is not a fixed number. If the BOM was $20,000, the game wouldn't be built. Somebody would tell someone they are out of their minds and to cut the BOM by 2/3.
You start with what the market will pay for the game, then develop the budget.

How do they know the market will pay these new prices?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but ah nevermind. Maybe I'm dumb.

#59 3 years ago

Its just going to affect pricing else where if everyone stops buying NIB. I am priced out of NIB with these prices, and am happy to say i am. It is what it is, however if people stop buying NIB and start buying up used games, the price of used games will start to go up also, its just the nature of the beast. Supply and demand as many others have said. Its just going to be a viscous cycle.

#60 3 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

Is this even possible? I thought they just said that they changed boards and would require more money if you had the old board set.

http://www.heighwaypinball.com/product/alien-pinball-game-kit/

#61 3 years ago

Whatever happens we're gonna talk it too death. Better up them servers Robin.

#62 3 years ago

No it wont, it would just make people focus on the used market more, less on new releases that they don't feel are worth the asking price.

#63 3 years ago

pf18 (resized).jpg

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#64 3 years ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

I don't think greed will kill pinball. I think the companies will react to what we do. I do hope the market response is that the demand dwindles.
Then, I think/hope that companies like Stern/JJP would adapt to stay in step with what their consumers are telling them with their wallets.
It really depends on what the consumers do.

What are you guys doing? Those over priced pieces of shit are sold out. $12000 SLEs and the LEs and they will sell a shit load of premiums, watch. Im sure [edited by moderator] Jack will sell a assload of his games as well. The next game that comes out will be higher.

#65 3 years ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

Whatever happens we're gonna talk it too death. Better up them servers Robin.

Robin is very busy making sure no one makes a political comment.

#66 3 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

Biggest bargain: $4350 for Alien playfield kit.

For $500 dollars more Stern will throw in a cabinet.

That price seems a little high. Still like the system and game though.

#67 3 years ago

Well it has definitely out priced me. I have always wanted a NIB but $6500 was about as far as I could justify it. I think the ever increasing NIB prices has drastically started to push up the used market to a point where I just can't see paying $1500+ for a system 11. For the money there are so many other toys and hobbies it just starts to not be worth it. I have heard many people say it "Pinball is a rich mans hobby". I hate to say it but its getting to be that way. Glad I bought mine when I did.

#68 3 years ago

What a surprise. A distributor says it's great.

#69 3 years ago

These LE machines are all about exclusivity and the prices reflect that. JJP's continual re-releases of TH confuse me a little -but not really. It's clear they have not sold as many of those as WOZ, but they have the money to play, I guess. What did Jack say? "We dont' want your [pre-order] money?"

I am also confused on the strategy with Dialed In, as it seems fairly clear to me that WOZ and TH sold at least in part to their theme - the Dialed In "marketing theme", if you will - is that it's all about Pat. Who knows/cares about Pat? Hardcore pinheads. So even the (imo) astronomically priced regular version of DI is aimed at the hardcore crowd. They can't sell it on theme, because nobody's ever heard of it. Something tells me they know what they're doing, even if not all of us like it... the game is supposed to be awesome. let's hope so!

Remember that there are always amazing games out there in the used market! Maybe this will finally push SWE1 down to under $1000 so my kid can stop asking about getting it

#70 3 years ago

I'm just sick and tired of the continued price hikes, lower quality, Super LE BS, and code updates taking forever to be released crap from Stern. I'm done buying another NIB game from Stern until they get their act together and start focusing on customers and creating value with their games again.

As for JJP they pissed me off as well by pulling their own Super LE crap (just unlimited) and also raising prices again. Out of the two manufacturers I think JJP is easily offering the most value with their product, it's higher end, better quality, code updates are released far more quickly, etc but not many people can afford a $9k game (let alone $12.5k). JJP as a company is getting away from what made them special in the first place.

Both companies need to understand that they are further limiting their customer base by raising prices year after year. Eventually, and I think we reached that point, people will say enough is enough.

Now between all manufactures I'm sick of them offering aftermarket mods that are better then what is on what is supposed to be the top model (additional armor, shooter rods, toppers, etc). An LE is an LE or it isn't. Is Batman 66 LE really an LE? No, not when there's a Super LE and there's going to be a bunch of aftermarket crap for sale from Stern. Is Dialed In LE really an LE? No, not when there's 7,000 available and a collectors edition is also being made.

Rant over

#71 3 years ago
Quoted from Bugsy:

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, if we don't all voice our concern, then we may not get the message through to the manufacturers. You think JJP and Stern people aren't lurking on Pinside, checking out the community's reaction and opinions? With this much backlash in just these past few hours, surely someone is taking notice.
Of course, it's also all dependent on what people are actually doing with their wallets. If a new crowd of purchasers comes in who are able to afford these "limited edition" games, and aren't pure enthusiasts or hobbyists, the manu's aren't going to care. As long as someone is buying them, they won't worry about pricing out the once normal crowd.

The manufactures could care less about what folks cry about as long as the profit continues to rise...they are BUSINESSMEN! They have a product that is selling at new highs to a "new crowd" of wealthy people. Sounds great for profit margins because they aren't enthusiasts buying and trading a few games a year. They have employees and overhead. Stop complaining about the pricepoint and start complaining that there are too many buyers with deep pockets.

Heck, lobster used to be cheap garbage food, then it gained in popularity. Do you think lobstermen listened to the "everyman" complaining about price hikes on the once cheap product they provided...NOPE! Strange analogy I know but its the same thing.

Bottom line is that there are still many great games at decent prices out there, have fun and ENJOY the HOBBY!

#72 3 years ago

having time to really consider the current pricing I am really thinking, how long until pins are being made in mexico?

Think about it from a business standpoint. materials are more or less a set cost. copper wire, wood, metal, etc.

labor costs are the only realistic area of the manufacturing process that can be cut. that or profit. everyone always says china. why not mexico. you pick a border town, set up manufacturing there and boom. make them for pennies on the dollar what labor costs in the u.s. ship over the border and wham, 4k premium.

#73 3 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

having time to really consider the current pricing I am really thinking, how long until pins are being made in mexico?
Think about it from a business standpoint. materials are more or less a set cost. copper wire, wood, metal, etc.
labor costs are the only realistic area of the manufacturing process that can be cut. that or profit. everyone always says china. why not mexico. you pick a border town, set up manufacturing there and boom. make them for pennies on the dollar what labor costs in the u.s. ship over the border and wham, 4k premium.

This^^^^^

Higher pricepoints can actually grow pinball! Other manufacturers can fill in a lower pricepoint gap the same as car sales.

Quit hiding behind "high prices will kill pinball." All these threads on high prices boil down to individual concerns. "I" cant afford the new shiney thing.

#74 3 years ago

We've all been saying they'll be made in China soon anyway....Whats the Diff'rence?

Wherever it's made you'll get the same appreciation & commitment to quality Playfield That Stern used to enjoy...bwa

#75 3 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

having time to really consider the current pricing I am really thinking, how long until pins are being made in mexico?
Think about it from a business standpoint. materials are more or less a set cost. copper wire, wood, metal, etc.
labor costs are the only realistic area of the manufacturing process that can be cut. that or profit. everyone always says china. why not mexico. you pick a border town, set up manufacturing there and boom. make them for pennies on the dollar what labor costs in the u.s. ship over the border and wham, 4k premium.

Because they won't charge $4,000 for it. They'll use it as a margin play. Same price to the buyer, lower cost to produce. Also, shipping fully assembled pinball machines across borders is going to cost a lot more than shipping components.

#76 3 years ago

They almost lost all operator sales. The private buyer fuels the sales. I am an operator and use to be able to make 50-100 dollars a week when new machines did not top 2k. These small production number really drove up pricing. I think you will see a decline in pinball prices as these brand new machines come out. Everyone will be selling last years hot machine to buy this years new one.

#77 3 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

I believe we are getting closer. Less and less people are buying in at these prices.

How do you know this? Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that fewer people are buying?

#78 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How do you know this? Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that fewer people are buying?

Id say i dunno the 10 or so threads about refusing to buy at these prices, i say money talks, stick together dont buy from stern or jjp - starve them out and watch them clamor like cockroaches.

#79 3 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Id say i dunno the 10 or so threads about refusing to buy at these prices, i say money talks, stick together dont buy from stern or jjp - starve them out and watch them clamor like cockroaches.

Sure, great idea lets put the few manufacturers out of business or at the least keep thier profit margins so low they can only keep the line operating for one game a year. Lets watch them layoff their workforce, and starve the part suppliers out too.

What a great community....

#80 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

No,because AP will take over from the titans.
And sell cheap games

Since when is $7000 cheap? Or by cheap, do you mean low quality?

#81 3 years ago
Quoted from Spitfiren8:

Sure, great idea lets put the few manufacturers out of business or at the least keep thier profit margins so low they can only keep the line operating for one game a year. Lets watch them layoff their workforce, and starve the part suppliers out too.
What a great community....

The point is dude they will lower their prices and stop gouging. By your logic let's just keep overpaying for pinball machines so they don't lay off the workforce because we'll feel sad about it? Please, this is America let the money talk, everybody complaining about the prices right now are most of the same people who are going to buy the games at these prices it's hilarious to watch everybody complain about it, don't like the price don't buy it. Are they ripping you off? Hell yeah because you're letting them.

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#82 3 years ago

How about they are doing fine with sales at high prices because the production numbers are so low. Lets see where this goes with pinball being successful. They might be able to expand production to fill in more pricepoints and increase profits further. More manufacturers can get in the game etc....

Bitching about the prices is purely selfish....period.

#83 3 years ago

Why are Woah Nellie and Pabst so expensive? I had a thought earlier that they could make some simpler, cheaper games for low-end consumers but then I remembered how much they were charging for EM-style pins. I mean, if even the non-license one-level no-toy mechanical throwback is out of reach for most people...

#84 3 years ago

We need more choices at different price points to accommodate everyone's budget. I would like to see a company do only remakes. Make 2 or more a year, and do it right and on time. With pricing at the 5-6k range. Everyone could have a great title without worrying about how to learn to fix a 20 plus year old game. I think that would bring more new blood into this hobby, as well as work for the resale market with more games in circulation. This will not be wanted by the ones who look at their games as gold bars, but more games,prices,and people has to be good to keep this all alive.

#85 3 years ago
Quoted from Switch:

Well it has definitely out priced me. I have always wanted a NIB but $6500 was about as far as I could justify it. I think the ever increasing NIB prices has drastically started to push up the used market to a point where I just can't see paying $1500+ for a system 11. For the money there are so many other toys and hobbies it just starts to not be worth it. I have heard many people say it "Pinball is a rich mans hobby". I hate to say it but its getting to be that way. Glad I bought mine when I did.

Amen to that... I'm glad I got into Pinball long ago. As you said, many other hobbies I could spend my money on.
For now, I'll enjoy what I have, knowing that when added up, still comes out cheaper then the latest NIB.

#86 3 years ago

we're having the same kind of discussions over in the UK in our forum, except even gloomier as our £ just plummeted so US-made goods cost us even more. so we go back to discussing livestock and our treasured historical monuments.

was there a winner from Expo? us Limeys seem to mostly agree that Batman66 is a joke at that price, Alien looks great and is well priced, but the most fun-looking of them all is the unlicensed Pat Lawlor game that's been set at such a ridiculously high price that nobody i know will be buying one. shame. so yes, we all recognise the greed at work by Stern and Joisey Jackoff, and it's not earning either of those companies any good PR.

bring on Homepin. Buy Heighway. nothing will kill pinball, but this may give it a severe case of diarrhoea and vomiting.

#87 3 years ago

My W/B DMD machines seem to be going up in value instead of down. Nice

#88 3 years ago

I think I'll
Go play my TZ

#89 3 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

Id say i dunno the 10 or so threads about refusing to buy at these prices, i say money talks, stick together dont buy from stern or jjp - starve them out and watch them clamor like cockroaches.

That is not evidence. Come back when you have evidence.

#90 3 years ago

Well you guys have been selling MMs and MBs and AFMs to each other (especially HEP ones) at inflated prices for years. Who's the hypocrite?

#91 3 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

we go back to discussing livestock and our treasured historical monuments.

I hear what you did there....!!!!!

#92 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That is not evidence. Come back when you have evidence.

Well thats really the only thing to go on until the game is for sale. Oh sorry i wasnt suppose to come back yet.

#93 3 years ago

As far as newly manufactured pins are concerned, rising and already crazy prices will
change the hobby for many. BUT lets not forget there are plenty of excellent older
games around to 'discover'. The pinball hobby will survive. Manufacturers may not.
And with their poor quality, should they?
Steve

#94 3 years ago
Quoted from zarco:

Manufacturers may not.
And with their poor quality, should they?

NO! They shouldn't.

#95 3 years ago

It's a combo kill

Pinheads and flippers have played their role in this mess

JJP and Stern are playing their part too, in a big way

#96 3 years ago

Money definitely talks. And the only thing I've heard from Stern, Jack, and a ton of distributors is that these pins are getting orders like crazy. Batman SLE are sold out, I think the LEs are all accounted for, and Jack had 500 orders on Dialed In before he even got on stage to announce it. Then I know 3 operators who already have one of each ordered, and a distributor who did more Dialed Ins on announcement day than his entire orders for the first half of 2016.

Sorry guys, these machines are flying.

And I don't know why people are acting like these prices are new. Go to Jack's website. A NIB WoZLE in Ruby Red is $10,000 shipped. I know, I just bought one a month ago. You can go find HUO ones selling for the same price as a NIB, right now. These handmade machines, with dozens of hand-molded toys, that take 40+ hours to build a single unit, and $2Mil in R&D/licensure cannot come cheap by nature of the design.

If you want cheap machines, invent a way for manufacturers to cut costs. Automation isn't an option.

#97 3 years ago
Quoted from dotEXE:

Money definitely talks. And the only thing I've heard from Stern, Jack, and a ton of distributors is that these pins are getting orders like crazy. Batman SLE are sold out, I think the LEs are all accounted for, and Jack had 500 orders on Dialed In before he even got on stage to announce it. Then I know 3 operators who already have one of each ordered, and a distributor who did more Dialed Ins on announcement day than his entire orders for the first half of 2016.
Sorry guys, these machines are flying.
And I don't know why people are acting like these prices are new. Go to Jack's website. A NIB WoZLE in Ruby Red is $10,000 shipped. I know, I just bought one a month ago. You can go find HUO ones selling for the same price as a NIB, right now. These handmade machines, with dozens of hand-molded toys, that take 40+ hours to build a single unit, and $2Mil in R&D/licensure cannot come cheap by nature of the design.
If you want cheap machines, invent a way for manufacturers to cut costs. Automation isn't an option.

Welcome to Pinside.

Quoted from dotEXE:

I'm a person who loves pinball, and has an in-progress PhD in economics. Jack definitely knows what he's doing.

Quoted from dotEXE:

$40 million profit on WoZ alone

That's a lot of moola! Are you sure you didn't miss a decimal point there? Or momentarily forget about the difference between revenue and profit?

#98 3 years ago

I think that the only way prices will be lowered is when people speak with their wallets.
Tell the manufacturers that it's too expensive.

Or or the sticker on the game changes from "made in USA" to "assembled in USA"

#99 3 years ago

A PhD in economics usually means an F in real world application and understanding. See exhibit A

Gross Sales $40,000,000
- Cogs $25,000,000
-Fixed Overhead $25,000,000
=Net profit (loss) $(10,000,000)

At least they will have a nice NOL carryover

#100 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

We've all been saying they'll be made in China soon anyway....Whats the Diff'rence?

Well; I'd say they are already made in China. They may be assembled here in the USA; but most of the silicon and probably the PCBs are made in china. Even the Pinballs themselves are probably made in china.

Quoted from cooldan:

we're having the same kind of discussions over in the UK in our forum, except even gloomier as our £ just plummeted so US-made goods cost us even more. so we go back to discussing livestock and our treasured historical monuments.

I get your not happy with your brexit Euro vs USD... but really you just liked the fact that you could get the machine for cheaper than usa. Now that the Euro is weaker; it's now not cool that you have to pay near what we pay? Seems... off.

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