I always thought OXO was pretty complex. And heavy.

Sonic Cherrybell comes to mind on a LOT of relays

I just finished up an oxo. It has the heaviest pf I have ever seen, with that massive reset bank. Also Bally kick off/ quarterback is pretty crazy

The underside of the playfield does have that jam-packed look of a Williams/Bally DMD game.

So what is the complex part(s) in the rules that makes it so complicated compared to a similar game that isn't?

It's been a while since I worked on one but I remember Cleopatra being pretty complex and very heavy from all of the relays.

Some of the Ballys from the mid 70s are pretty complex with a lot of relays and stepper motors. My Night Rider has a lot going on under the hood.

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Another vote for OXO

you just wanted an excuse to show off that nice looking game

Gulfstream has a fairly massive relay bank on the underside of the playfield.

The bottom logic boards of the cabinet are mostly the same between similar games, years, and manufacturers.

What makes Grand Prix complex is the two total reset stepper units under the playfield.

I don’t know if Grand Prix is the most complex, most stepper units though. I might lean to OXO as most complex due to the number of playfield relays.

Cleopatra is a contender and don't forget Mata

My vote is Capersville...

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Might be a tie with oxo.

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Egghead beats OXO on the relay bank and the rest of the playfield relays

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I don't think Capersville is quite as mechanically complex as OXO but it has my vote for the most complex rule set for an EM. Check out this rule sheet: http://pinball.org/rules/capersville.html

Ah, for complex ruleset I vote Bally’s Little Joe.

I've worked on a lot of 4 players EM's and I would tend to put Grand Prix at or near the top of the complex list, what puts it above other 4 player games is the steppers and how they work together. Most 4 players EM's are pretty scary in the sheer volume of relays, steppers and other mechs, lots going on and lots to go wrong!!

Not complex but the heaviest playfield by far of any machine I have is my Williams Wild Card and it’s a single player.

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Complexity is a tricky thing to measure but one way to compare apples to apples is to compare the number of relays and coils in each game which is usually provided in a handy table. The schematic for Grand Prix for example shows:
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Grand Prix: 37 relays and 56 coils for a total of 93 devices.

To compare to other games:
OXO: 51 relays and 45 coils for a total of 96 devices
Egg Head: 46 relays and 21 coils for a total of 67 devices
Prospector: 36 relays and 49 coils for a total of 85 devices

Counting relays and coils only approximates complexity since something like a Gottlieb Player Unit is much more complex than a Ball Count Unit but both have two coils so they'd count as the same complexity.
You could count the number of switches or other devices but that's a much bigger effort.
Multiplayer games will always have an advantage over single player games given their extra score reels and extra steppers to keep track of coins and players.
Tic Tac Toe games like OXO and Egg Head need 18 relays just to keep track of the Xs and Os on a tic tac toe board (2 x 9).

/Mark

Grand Prix sure is complex with the two bonus units. Oxo and Gulfstream probably have the largest relay banks.

How about Argosy?

I’ve had an Argosy. What makes you think it’s complex? It’s pretty straight forward

I thought there is an additional step up unit to count how many times the drop targets have been completed, then the usual bonus, coin and player units. But it does not need a relay bank for ball in play relevant sequence completions so probably not very complex.

Anyway, I have always considered Argosy as the quintessential EM game. Simple rules - knock down drop targets to increase eject hole value. Spinner, gate, double bonus and extra ball - what more do you need!

For the more complex EM games, it must have been hard to just place the relay banks and units so that everything fits with playfield down, and the wire harness does not get in the way!

No it's using some relays to count that progress. Fun aside, you can shoot open the ball gate on the left drain to advance the progress from the initial state to the second state. Won't do it for the other states though.

Right, relays do most the heavy lifting in Argosy. Under the hood its similar to most other EM games.

Grand Prix may not be the most complex ever, but it may as well be. Anybody who has moved one or worked on one would probably agree.

I did have to move one several times, but then I was a bit younger so it did not feel so heavy... What I remember from Grand Prix is the superb spinners

Most bingo pinballs are far more complex than anything mentioned. The most complex of these is Bally's Hawaii, which I suspect is also the heaviest EM pinball. Some of the complexity (if doing coil counts) is hidden because of the clutched control unit and mixer unit.

Grand Prix is one of the most irritating to work on, though! The position of the relay bank under the playfield means that the bundle can be caught as the playfield is lifted, tearing wires. The bonus stepper near the front of the playfield is unfortunately in a perfect position for someone to set it down on, causing improper indexing. The match unit pulls so many duties that it creates a lot of problems if it is not moving properly.

I've only worked on one OXO but I don't remember it being nearly as irritating. Maybe that's because I've worked on so many different Grand Prixs.

Agree. The post should specify “most complex EM Pinball machine”.

Everyone knows there’s no contest once bingo machines are considered.

Whenever I have "newbie's" visit my basement, I always open up Grand Prix to show how things were done before Solid State came along. It's a master piece of mechanical evolution that drops jaws to people unfamiliar with EMs and machines of that era.

My Williams Olympic Hockey actually has supplemental boards hanging off the playfield and backbox with even more relays.

Big Deal's is a pretty loaded EM too.

Agreed. If Little Joe had 2-ball multiball, it would be a masterpiece.

As far as complex relay logic, Williams "Hot Line"/"Big Strike" are masterpieces of design.

Let's not forget Quick Draw/Fast Draw either. Resetting drops in different patterns. Crazy for 1975.

I also want to mention Fireball but NOT because I think it's the best ever. I'm mentioning it because it's a great example of cramming as many features as possible into a machine created in 1972. BUT at the same time, it's only so-so on the fun factor. Had one that played great for over 5 years, do not miss it EVER!

Trying to get a Grand Prix dialed in is a chore. Especially if somebody monkeyed with the steppers before you got to it. When everything works, it is awesome. My match unit is still a little flaky at the end of ball match sequence but I am too scared to try to disassemble and fix it haha.

That's all fine and well but it's not a pinball, it's a gambling bingo device at heart. To calculate those odds, no cost was spared when they created those games. So, while they may be way more complex, some of that is lost on me since it's essentially a slot machine that you can nudge, where it's complexities are set up to maximize the money made from the customer(s).

I concede that it is an EM as the OP typed/asked but still, not really a pinball in the Pinside sense of the term. (A lot more luck than skill.)

What defines pinball to you? Plunger? Pins? Rubber? Posts? Balls? A playfield in a cabinet at an incline? Game rules?

These are of course all present in bingo pinballs as well.

The player has quite a bit of control, unlike a slot machine. In some ways, much more control than flipperless amusement pinballs.

All coin op machines were made to take your money.

Flippers!

I don’t know, but I know a bingo machine when I see it!

It takes me less than a half a second to make that determination and skip over those ads.

Yep. One look inside a bingo sends me running

Let's not "dis" the ancestral pre-flipper games. They were pinball in every sense of the word. In fact, the farther back in pinball history you travel, the more you can see why it's called "pin" ball in the first place.
Historically speaking, the spring loaded integral shooter, invented by Montague Redgrave, is considered to be the single most important design advance defining the line between bagatelle tables and pinball machines.
A bingo machine is also a pinball machine, but it is a different type of animal. I would not, however, consider the early United bingos which resemble roulette wheels, to be true pinball machines.

Cleopatra

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I was looking for a good picture for the underside of the playfield for Olympic Hockey, its VERY busy. The rink unit in the backglass is a PITA to get adjusted "just right"

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Just changed all the sleeves on my OH, worth the time. The 5 pops get thumping pretty good!

Grand Prix owners, please take a look at this and let me know
if I am on the right track.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-grand-prix-score-motor-keeps-running#post-6985480

Thanks

The simple answer to the OP is yes.